Then was it honest to act as if you had a POJA that day? If it's never?

I encourage you to read that Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend, too. It suggests additional steps after sharing your O&H, like counseling, getting the larger family involved, and other ideas.

It was more like, 'I've been trying really hard lately to meet his needs. I'm going to make this as nice a day as possible, too, so that when he gets done with what he wants to do, he'll think of that thing, and maybe think 'hmm, it would really make her happy if I hang this.' '

Wishful thinking, I guess. I'll go to the bookstore today; I just finished the other stuff I was reading this weekend.

Then you do nothing. You aren't enthusiastic about washing clothes, making lunch, pulling weeds, helping him with the car.


As I think your husband has OCPD, asking him directly to do something leads to "Demand Resistance". OCPDers never want to do something that they have been asked to do.

What does he value? The opinions of others? Admiration? Appeal to that.

Instead of asking him to hang up the picture..."I was telling my friend Jane about this picture and she can't wait to see it. I know if you help me put it up it will look so good."

I was also going to ask you if you were happy about the things you did for/with him... Were they things you enjoyed, or were you doing them, as you say, in hopes that later that day, he might be willing to do what YOU wanted him to do (i.e. hang the picture, or have sex the way you wanted).

Doing things for another person in the hopes that them feeling good will motivate them to do good things for us is NOT being wonderful, it's being manipulative.

You were being manipulative.

If spending time with him, doing things with him means being "wonderful" in a "I'm enjoying myself" sense, that's great. But it isn't what you were doing.

So that's one thing I wanted to say.

The other thing I wanted to say relates to the fact that I don't think your husband is any happier than you are in this marriage. (Now that's not a reflection on you, I think you're working very hard, and you know where I stand on your marriage... however...) It's possible that your husband "sensed" your motivation was to get him to do what you wanted.

Maybe he wants you just to be happy with him and enjoy him, too. Maybe you DID make him feel good, and he just wanted to savor it. Maybe he's suspicious of your motives, and wanted to see if it would last. Maybe his lovebank is still pretty empty, too.

Maybe he resisted doing what you wanted because he balked at the idea of a quid pro quo.

Maybe you need to negotiate in a different way. "Hon, How would you feel about figuring out what we both want to do day so that it can be wonderful day. One thing I would love is if you could hang the picture. Another would be if we could do_______. I would also like to try to do_______ if I can... What about you?"

See what I mean? Then maybe he says "Well, I wanted to work on the car, and I really like it when you help me" and suddenly you're negotiating.

Or not.

But at least your agenda is explicit.

I'm really very enthusiastic about accomplishing things, I desperately want my house to be clean and in order. But the resentment is always there, because it's one-sided.

You're right, though. The only time he ever cleans the house is if he knows we'll be having company. I joke sometimes that I should throw regular parties so he'll stay motivated to help.

I'll have to be creative to find some ways to phrase things the way you suggest. Thanks.

Telly, it's been my experience that he simply forgets what I ask of him. I've had things I've asked to be done 3 or 4 times, and if I do discuss it, he'll say 'when did you ask me to do that?'

That's the reason I was bringing this all up; I know I'm being PA or manipulative. I'm trying to learn. The up-front talking, though, that's why I'm here in the first place. I'm so averse to discussing anything with him that's going to provoke a response that I just can't even squeak it out. He's got all these...things he does whenever we discuss anything that's not his idea or in his plans, and I'm like Pavlov's dogs. As soon as I see him starting to do these things, I cringe and start back-pedaling. A look on his face, tapping his foot, sighs, it's like I'm back in first grade and trying not to tick my dad off.

cat, I totally understand.

I was just crying on the phone with my husband today because I had brought up a purchase I needed for a business I"m starting, and he said "Ouch. That's a lot of money. Do you really need that?"

The words sound innocent enough, but they hurt me. When he needs something I respond with "Whatever you need." When I need something he wants me to demonstrate that it's necessary... not for nothing though, because he actually does the same thing when it's him, only I tell him he doesn't have to!

Anyway, I told him that I am a poor self-advocate. I gave him about 5 examples of times when I gave up because I didn't feel I could "prove" that I "needed" something (I am teh master of being able to do without). And it isn't fair. He persists, and when it's HIM, he doesn't face that with me at all.

So yes, I get the whole foot tapping, sighing, rolling of the eyes, doing ANYTHING that looks like I"m causing problems, or asking too much. I hear you!

I just started reading the dance of anger that you guys have been talking about. It's helped me avoid a couple of patterns (though not all) already. Are you finding it helpful?

Cat, you remember from the Gaslight Effect book, these things are intentional. Have you said, "I see you are tapping your foot. I get very fearful when you do that, and I'm asking you to stop. Do you have a spoken request for me?" And then, if it's no, and he's still doing it, then remove yourself from his presence.

There's a great activity in the Healing the Shame that Binds you book where you change your memories. You can change a bad foot tapping memory where you give into your fear into a memory where you are assertive and speak up. Then you can call that new memory to mind when he does that. Remind yourself that you are done with that.

Catperson - I did a little searching and came up with a partial thread in an unknown group about demand resistance.

Demand resistance conversation

I'm not sure it's going to apply, but it sounds like your husband to some extent. Make note of the book they mention "Too Perfect" which has a chapter on Demand Resistance. Might be helpful.

Also...consider checking out Amazon.com for discount books.

Wow, that was very spot on. Searched further, and found a thread about sensitivity to smell and other senses in OCPDs. My H can get a headache, downstairs, if the catbox upstairs hasn't been cleaned out in 2 days. He just knows. And this is after he installed a kitty door into the bedroom it's in upstairs, put the catbox in the closet of that bedroom with another kitty door in the wall into the closet (the closet door is kept shut, as is the door to the bedroom). He also knows if the cleaning lady uses her own vacuum instead of ours; he can smell it. It also mentions how they get carsick if they sit in the back seat, something he does, along with a dozen other things he has in common with them.

I think that maybe this might be a better tack for me to take than what I've been doing. I know several of you have been telling me he has it, but I never realized there would be a whole support system out there for it.

Thanks. I'll order it tomorrow.

I picked up His Needs Her Needs at Half Price Books, it's the only one they had on my list. I had dinner with H while I was waiting for D18 to get off work, and I told him about buying the book, and explained about top 5 needs a little bit. He just got this little grin on his face. Like alright, just go ahead and do your little touchy feely stuff, if it makes you feel better. But at least I gave him a little more detail about what I'm trying to do.

Oh, forgot to say that I told him about the questionnaires and how people can fill them out to try to find out what the other person wants and doesn't want. That's when he got that look on his face. I don't know. He may be willing to do it if I present it to him on a good day. At least I've gotten past that hurdle, where he knows I'm worried about the relationship and am trying to improve it.

Don't forget, Cat, that each need has its own page on the questionnaire. You can do a few needs at a time if that's easier for him.

Of course, maybe for him it's better to just give it all to him and hope for the best. You know him better than we do.

Cat, a few concerns

1) It takes two to make a messed up relationship. If you work on fixing his half, like reading books on how to deal with his issues, that is focus that you are taking away from building a healthy life for yourself. I'd rather see you take that focus to your half, like when you accomplished the finance issues.

2) You are in no position to go for POJA on the ENs while you two still have the LBS of AOs in his case and dishonesty - lies of omission for fear of his reaction, in your case. You've seen the Four Steps of Negotiation, and one is safety. What you're proposing is trying to appease a terrorist. I'm afraid you'll lose your steam in this situation. No wonder you're depressed!

Cat, I hope that's not harsh. If it is, please disregard it. I think that you are capable of a whole lot. But only your 50%. You can't fix someone's ODD or OCPD. You can make a healthy life for yourself, and he can figure out where he fits in. Or not. His choice to own.

Cat, you know my experience. When I got to Alanon, I wanted to know how to get H to stop vomiting. How to make him keep me safe. I learned that I can't make someone make me safe. It was time for me to realize that only I can do that.

I like to think, cat, that your H signed on for life, whether you're Doormat Cat or Awesome Cat. I think he's going to be so happy for your changes.

I was wondering why the Tough Love book (I think from Focus on the Family's James Dobson?) was on my mind this morning.

When I was married to WXH way back when I was too young to know better, I read the Tough Love book and tried to apply it to save my marriage. I failed miserably, and just this morning I was thinking about why my efforts failed to save my marriage. Just this morning I realized that it's because all the books I read back then focused on what was wrong with *him* - or at least that's how I read them.

The thing I find so valuable about MB is that it tells each of us to focus on our own stuff - what we are doing wrong, what we should eliminate and what we should improve, what good things we should do more of. Not what we can do to manipulate the other person into changing.

That doesn't mean the other person doesn't have to make changes to have a healthy marriage. I have a tendency sometimes to take that to mean that I must work on myself until I'm perfect, if he isn't responding. I gotta watch out for that. The other person may very well need to make changes too. Hopefully we're learning how to make respectful requests, acknowledging that they may not choose what we'd like them to choose. But still, focusing on our own changes is working better for me than reading books about all the things wrong with H.

ETA: For me, it helps to be able to assign "labels" to behavior because then there are specific suggestions on how to deal with it. But IMHO it's still better to concentrate on what I myself can do given the situation, not how I can "fix" or "cure" or otherwise help the other person.

Don't worry, y'all. I have no intention of changing him. But finding this new information, which people kept telling me to look at and I only skimmed over, helps me to understand him. I'm one of those people who has to evaluate what I'm dealing with, empathize with it/him, understand why they do what they do. So if I find out why he became that way, it'll be easier to navigate around it.

Rereading HNHN today, it reminds me of how much of a difference I can make, and how he and I both got to this point. I, too, think he'll be happier when I'm happier.

Cat, this is the discussion group I had pointed you to before. I really do think it will help you understand your DH.

I remember it, and I actually put it in my favorites folder awhile back, but I guess it got swallowed up with the 50 other websites I've put in there, waiting to get the time to go to them. But I'm definitely going to use it. I almost said something to H about it last night, cos I was excited that I had found a group of people with the same idiosyncracies as him, but I stopped myself; he'd see it as LBing, I think. I need to read the stuff and then just bring it up in conversation, get him thinking. I don't know, maybe if he could put a finger on why he's so agitated all the time, it might give him some reassurance. Doubt it, as he doesn't ever seem to think that anything he does is wrong, but who knows?

btw, he never noticed that the thing I asked him to hang up was gone, and never noticed it hanging up. Like I figured, he forgot I asked for it, because it didn't interest him.

One good thing that happened is I've been talking to him about getting D18 to open a checking account, since she has a job now, and I figured it would be one of those momentous things of her life he always wants to be part of. But when I asked him if he wanted me to wait until he could get home before the bank closed so he could go, he just said, no, go ahead and do it.

When I first read this, I wondered if perhaps it might be a DJ - or if not disrespectful, at least attempting to mind-read, or projecting how you would've felt onto him who may not feel that way.


So it didn't make him feel guilty?

I've heard it said that others think of us less often than we imagine; that others are more self-absorbed to think of us as often as we imagine they do. Do you think that you put yourself through unnecessary worry, by worrying over whether or not your actions are going to make him feel guilty? Do you think maybe he doesn't feel guilty as readily as you do?

I'm not saying, I'm asking.

Cat, that'd be cool, to get support from folks who have BTDT.


Cat, I'm not sure what you mean LBing. Do you mean comparing his behavior to a list and finding a match? Are these habits that he thinks he has? Or does he think that he does not have these habits? OR does he agree taht he does these things, but they are your or someone else's fault? Are these behaviors that he wants to continue or extinguish? Does he bring up these behaviors, that they bother him, in himself or in others?