Cat, that silence can be scary, when you don't know what it means. What about sharing your concern? I'm nervous because I haven't heard back from you. I want to hear that you love and accept me even when I take steps in different directions. That you love and accept DD18 even when she takes steps in new directions.

Cat, I wanted to ask you, too, to consider getting Healing the Shame that Binds You. It talks specifically about the behaviors you described last week that you discussed in IC about your H's comments to DD18 and her friends. Describes how that is unhealthy. And about your talking with DD18 about your concerns that you shared last week. I thought there was a risk of getting into an unhealthy area going into that level of detail with her, and when I read it, I got the why and how. She said that she was uncomfortable talking about it. And you didn't feel so comfortable addressing that, but pushed yourself to, anyhow. But sometimes these signals are to help us.

And then this last week presented the opportunity for you to address these issues in the safer context of the driving. I don't say that to slam you at all. I'm saying that this was really helpful for me to understand past dynamics and how they affect my parenting today, and that I see parallels that you may find relvant, too.

And I hear you about not trusting IC completely. What about addressing that with her, seeing what she does with that concern? Dismisses it, or addresses it in a way that builds your trust? For me it helped to tell him where I didn't agree, to ask for clarification, and to tell him where I still didn't agree with him. And tell him when something would not work for me, so we could try something else. For example, when I was overwhelmed with housework when DD7 was a newborn, and he told me to find a teenager to help with the housework.

We don't live in a neighborhood where teenagers will do that kind of work for pay, so it was good for me to clarify, so we could brainstorm something else. I started waiting until my older daughter, then 5, got home from preschool, and tidied up while she played with the baby in one room. Did "just the middles", not a thorough weekly cleaning like before we had the baby. I got a housecleaner once a month for the deep cleaning. I don't mean to say that's the answer for everyone. I'm saying that I found an answer that worked for us at that point in time.

It's not that I don't trust her to help me, it's that I have so much self-shame that I can't possibly tell her what I really think deep down, for fear of her not liking me. I know that's not applicable for an IC, but there it is.

I'll pick up the book as soon as I finish what I'm reading.

And thanks, I hadn't thought of checking with H. That's a good idea.

Well, he replied with his own email, everything I expected except that he pointed out a couple of times he isn't mad, he loves us, that kind of thing. So that was nice.

And he had some good points, just like I did. But he doesn't see the main issue, that he is being too rigid in wanting the family to follow his own beliefs, and that he punishes us for speaking up. He kept saying 'if you would have just asked me...'

I was going to reply to all his stuff, but he said he doesn't like writing, would rather talk, so maybe Friday when he gets home, we can have a civil talk. Fingers crossed.

Some examples (please excuse his writing; he's dyslexic or something, so writes very poorly):

I HAVE NOT had the chance to talk to him. You let him go out with D18 the first time without my involvement and/or even a call on what you were doing the first time, it was an after fact. I can tell you it would have been a lot different if I could had been like a normal father, been able to talk to C before they went out.

I [knew] that she would be going in C's car before I even got back.

Overbearing parents, just because we care, we stop EVERYTHING her whole life to do what she wants and best for her. She has more parties and other events involving her freinds, 70% of vacations have involved doing what her freinds want to do on trips.

Ok the mall I agree we went many times as we grow up. But, the mall is unsafe to this day.

You pick[ed] this part of town.

I could not control who she hangs out with at school. She has been in a wierd crowd, maybe if she would have stayed in choir, did a sport, and/or in some orgination at school, she would had met a different crowd and things would have been different, but we can not change that.

We are not too protective, I'm not too protective, I have no problem with Eric [the boy who thinks D18's too fast for wanting to kiss), but I know something about [him] because I got to know him. The last two I had NO SAY.

So the mall, understand, we met with Peggy again AFTER THE FACT. I know she wanted to go, I planned to talk to her and give her the look out fors, and then let her go, but before I could be the good father or guy, you go to Peggy and take the father from me to the Peggy tell me I should, I was going to [anyway], but I DID NOT have he chance.

The last boy the same, you played the father and mother part, I had no say. Then C, the same. How hard would it had been if they just waited for me to come home to meet him, or just even give me a call at home or cell, both just thought I would make the bad call, again like the mall you guys were wrong including Peggy.

How hard would it been for you or D18 to just e-mail me to see what I thought, if I felt any better about C?

Even this e-mail what would had been wrong just e-mailing me "what do you think about D18 riding with C?" Think for all the years I'm going to answer you way of thinking about me. I know homecoming is coming, I was aware that C much rather take his car, both afraid I will be upset neither of you bring up anything.

I have been adjusting to you and D18 most always bringing freinds ALL HER LIFE, [when] do I get just you and D18?

Yes this has to deal with C, he promised to not wear the whip it out, brother in the hood pants that I have to answer to neighbors, and it lasted what almost a week not wearing, then back with the same pair, then lye to me he never worn them but once, when the neighbors know how many times they have seen them. It does not matter what I said to him, so I'm to believe what he said when he drinks which is against the law he will not drive, he will not race, he will not whatever and he does want he wants and then lyes about it. How can I trust him to take care of our daughter. It does not matter how confrontable they are, I just do not care, if my daughter dresses with class and he likes her, then he need to dress to match. What does it matter about being cool, he has the cool lady in the school. Why does D18 have to lower to in the hood, when she did not grow up in the hood.

You stated he wants something out of life and will go to college and not be stupid in high school. He is smart and score in the upper class in testing, so he should act it, he DOES NOT even try to put on a front to kiss up to you and me. You don't even pick up on his BS lines when he is around. He has been like me in the past having to be the father figure. He acts much older than he is. This is a good thing and a bad thing. He is controlling to a degree and you do not see this, you may see D18 finally having a boy friend and over look it.

You guys meeting with Peggy and her playing a bit of the [our] family. These meeting are great for you and for D18, but for me, it put me in the wrong light. Let's discuss this with your dad in a meeting. So, where does this put me in my opinion with D18 in the future, every time I need to get around dad or get dads approval we went to meet with Peggy and she will help me make him come around. D18 nor you have just talked about her wants and needs, each time with C it's been putting me in the wrong before I get my feeling out.

What party, movie, and mall trip have we stopped in the past year? D18 has not asked anything of me. I have been missing the feeling the lost of my young daughter but noticed the young lady she has become. But, she is in tears because of the feelings about me. Yes, not up beat, upset about the others that are wronging me, and listening to you two talk about others without any problem but I become apart of the conversation and express the same I wronging.

If I was controlling and had been controlling, plus not trusting and letting go, then I would have been calling her daily and/or having her calling me. I would have had the neighbors keeping track, I would be checking her website, phone, and room. I would have been making her not calling any freinds during the week, making her go to bed earlier, keeping her from having access to the cable and satilitte locking the code to keep her out so that she does not look at thinks she is too young for, preventing her from dating, not letting her go to visit freinds because room not made up or homework not done.

She does not have to feel she is different, she just needs to speak to me, I have told her so many times, just let me know what is happening.

If C's parents think he is such a good driver, then what is the concern about driving thier cars, his dad is gone most all the time and the car is sitting, maybe there is a concern he will mess up their expensive cars that has been told to D18 that they are better then our cars. and not a good as a drive as they tell you are. If they were good parents like us then for the happiness of C then let he drive their cars.

And I'm so tire of hearing from you guys and C how all the safety features of his car. It's been modified and for him to work all the hours to spend thouands of his earned money to hot it up, when he could had taken the money he earned and spend on the hot rod upgrades and brought a car that was factory hot rod and safer. His choice to [want] a torch car, to be part of the hood, and a follower. This is his life and his hard spent money. I can not judge it. I can judge him that if he cares about our daughter and her feelings he would dress and act the part of carrying. I know kid have change, but he needs to grow up, I understand he has been the father figure, I have been there, but if he has a high school love for D18, then he should forget the front for both the car and dress, play the part as wanting to be as classy as D18, and not just have D18 to be part of his hood looks, show off car, and trophy beautiful, smart, and well dressed girlfriend.

I understand she will be on her own soon I love her, I take her to school every morning, and nothing is said about any of this, and yes we talk every morning.

As I said, I [knew] you would let them drive together when I was gone, I know you, I did not say anything about it when I left. and was not going to. I was praying for an e-mail from D18 asking me if it has been long enough not riding with C and if I had any thoughts about it, but nothing.

Having to stay up to write this, and I want to when I have another early morning, e-mails to read, and another 10-12 hours on my feet, I may have not written and it may not have come out the way I really meant it to be. You know I have to use words that I can['t] spell and sometimes it may not be exactly as I want it to be. No matter, please I do not like having to reply on things like this when I travel, but I fully understand where you are coming from, why, and your concerns. I'm not saying I upset, I'm not.

Love you both,

H

I think I'll just respond with something like:
I'm sorry if you feel hurt by this, and you have some really good points. But we still haven't touched on the real issue here, that we both feel a disconnect with you because when we talk to you, you get upset if we don't agree with you; and it makes us feel so bad we don't even want to try. Maybe we can sit down and talk about it Friday when you get home from work.

Thoughts?

He seems not angry, but more like his feelings are hurt that he was portrayed as the bad parent while you got to be the cool parent.

I wonder if, when you respond to him, you could concentrate on just "I" statements and make sure you don't DJ... like, "I hear that you say we didn't come ask you, and give you a chance to say yes. I admit I don't do that. I feel fearful to do things like that, it's just how I am. I'm trying to learn to be more O&H about such things. I really appreciate that you didn't respond in anger when I told you I'd let DD18 ride in C's car."

I don't know, that may be assuming too much responsibility... it depends. Just from reading his comments, it sounds like he has a point; you owe it to him to be more O&H. But from all the other thing you've told us, I can see why you'd be fearful.

How much ownership do you think you should take, of your reluctance to talk to him about such things as letting DD18 do something?

Would it help to mention the IC's opinion, as an unbiased reality check?

Jayne, I heard that he sees the IC as very biased against him at this point. But I like how you challenge cat to find her O&H

Cat, you know where I'm coming from, I'm a more protective parent. That doesn't make me bad, just different. I understand what your H is saying, that this guy is a lying disrespectful slimeball creep and he doesn't want your DD out on the town with a guy who looks like a hoodlum and doesn't show respect when it comes to your H. That both parents' opinions need to be taken into consideration. I think that there is a lot of room for negotiating here.

My brothers and sister "act ghetto" and while I would accept that my DD12 would probably not have a problem dating a guy who acts like that, I wouldn't like it. Pot is a big part of that culture down here, is it up by you? I also wouldn't be happy if my daughters dated a guy who thought it was okay to drink and drive underage.

And it shredded (what an accurate word) my love bank account for H when he took the kids to his friend's house with the creepy neighbors that he knew I was uncomfortable with when I went out of town for my grandpa's funeral. I can really relate to how he feels there, wanting to be there if she had needed him.

At the same time, cat, I hope that you don't judge yourself. You had reasons to do what you did. It sounds like he is willing to negotiate with you on these things. That's he's not upset and is not going to punish you.

As I feared, per his comments, he already sees IC as someone we go to, to get what we want, i.e., instead of what he wants. I told her that would happen; that's why we didn't bring him in to a meeting with her. But I added it in my letter thinking it would lend credence to the discussion. But all he saw was that we used her to get what we want. So I'm not going to bring her up again.

I had been thinking the same as you on the rest of it, though. I need to reassure him, as in The Dance of Anger, that this isn't about us not liking him; that it's about being fair.

I think what this talk, if we have one, has to be about is that, while neither one of us wants to hurt the other, we have devolved into this pattern of me not speaking because he wants what he wants (just like my thread title), and him assuming we want what he wants because we don't say anything.

As usual, it all comes down to communication. But just maybe I will be closer this time than ever to be able to not back down when he starts getting defensive.

Thanks for the help.

ears, I hear you. And I think if he had been more realistic along the way, I'd be feeling more compassion for his position. But she's going to college in 9 months. She went to the mall with her friends - without one of us - for the first time ever this spring. I see 10 year olds alone at the mall.

H is protective, I'm pragmatic. I was protective like you when D18 was 12, too. But at 18, I believe in working really hard with D18 to show her cons and pros and consequences and dangers and solutions...so that she can handle the issues when I am not around. Just not letting her experience anything is in no way keeping her safe. Well, maybe for the immediate moment, but what happens next summer when she's gone and has never dealt with a boyfriend who drinks, or had a guy come up to her at a mall and try to pick her up, or had to return something at a store? We can protect her by doing for her and sheltering her, or we can protect her by teaching her how to do for herself. Which one is going to last the next 50 years?

The problem with what H said is that C did NOT show disrespect to H in any way, shape or form except for the fact that he wanted to wear those stupid shorts. Nothing. He wears plain old t-shirts and flip flops with them. Nothing hoodlum about it, especially when 80% of all the kids have the same exact pair of shorts. He wears plaid flannel shirts with his jeans, for goodness sake! He helped us prepare for the hurricane, he helped clean our house, he helped D18 sweep our sidewalks, he helped cook dinner, he was very respectful, answered every question at dinner. But he wore those stupid shorts over, and when H told him to wear his flip flops when walking on our driveway (remember the splinters?), he didn't put his shoes on, but kept working. I guess that means he defied my H and was disrespectful.

He told H that he would never drink and drive, and said that the times he has drunk, he just spends the night at the friend's house he is at. To me, that's a lot more respectable - to tell the truth and to recognize he shouldn't drive - than to lie to us and pretend he's a choir boy, like most kids do.

Bottom line, he's ticked that the kid didn't act like Eddie Haskell when they met. Sorry for the DJ, but I know my H and that's exactly what's wrong.

Sorry, didn't mean to get preachy. I'm just so worn out with this. And I don't judge myself in this situation. I know a h*ll of a lot more about raising healthy kids than he ever will, and I'm not the one that all of D18's friends try to avoid because he is so weird. This is one time when I am going to stick to my guns, because he is causing D18 to be a nervous wreck with his inability to see that anyone else could possibly be right except him, and I'm tired of watching it.

*sigh* Some days I just want to walk away and never come back.

Sorry, cat, I didn't mean to imply that you don't feel compassion for his position. And I may well have a different perspective on parenting when my kids are 18. Already in Alanon I've learned to encourage my kids to have more of a voice than I had when I was 18. I don't mean to say that you would even have the power to keep your daughter from dating who she wants. I just said that I wouldn't like it. I don't believe that she needs to date a guy who drinks so much he has to sleep over, while she lives at home to figure out that's not her values. Nor to avoid being an outcast. I think there is a 90 degrees between his 180 of protection and your 180 of pragmatism.

Cat, any boys I dated, even after I was kicked out at 18, knew they were going to have to Eddie Haskel it, for my sake, at my parents' or grandparents' house. Without me even warning them. Even my H, and he was 37 when he met them. I hear you that the tricked-out car doesn't bother you, either. That that's not your hill to die on. I'm just saying that if you two negotiate this, you may find a win-win there.

Well, when I say Eddie Haskell, I mean lie.

C has been nothing but respectful at our house. He listens to us at the dinner table, he talks cordially, he agrees with H on things H wants him to agree on, he doesn't do anything untoward toward D18, they barely even kiss.

So he's got all the mannerisms down. He knows how to be nice to a grown up. He just for some reason thinks he should be honest with us about his past transgressions, thinking that that will reassure us that he knows the difference between what boys do at a party and what boys do when they are on a date with a girl.

I guess I'm not explaining the situation well enough. Here's some perspective. By all estimates, a good 70-75% of all the boys at her school are not virgins. At least. A good 50-75% of them drink at least once a month or two months. And they can drink only one or two drinks and then decide not to drive - staying at someone's house doesn't mean they are getting so drunk they can't stand up; it's just the norm these days to admit you have drunk and not drive, rather than pretending you haven't, and go out and wreck the car; kind of like a guy's version of a girl's sleepover. Probably 30-50% of them smoke pot. Nearly all of them wear these shorts; it's all the stores sell any more.

And she is not doing any of this risky behavior, and he knows full well not to take her to a party where there will be drinking. So she isn't trying to fit into any group, except the one that thinks it's ok to go hang out together at the mall or at Starbucks - something she's never been allowed to do before this year.

I really hope you won't raise your daughter thinking that the kids in her school won't be drinking to get drunk. Because they will. That's what kids do. They may tell you they aren't, but they're just telling you what they know you want to hear. It's their job. Maybe I'm silly for respecting him for being honest, but I'd much rather have that than to have to try to figure out on my own when he is and isn't lying to us.

:MrEEk:

Sorry, couldn't resist. I personally appreciate the O&H. Maybe your H sees it as C isn't willing to "make the effort"... to play by (H's version of) society's rules. Maybe he thinks that if C *admits* to X then he is surely doing Y and Z also.

Sorry, I saw the thing about him thinking the IC was just to side with cat and DD18, I just forgot it as I was typing.

Y'all are reinforcing my desire to buy a cabin in the woods and homeschool my kids until they're 25. Or like in the movie "Blast From the Past". (J/K)

I'm sorry if I've hurt anybody's feelings today (ears). I was just getting frustrated because I'm not getting the true situation across, and while H has some good arguments, he is looking at everything through his grossly distorted view of the world, and he still is doing more damage than good. And that is not just a DJ. C is not an alcoholic, he's not a party animal, and he's crazy about my D and very loving and giving. But all H sees is someone who's taking his place.

I'm just so on edge I can barely function, and I picked today to start not drinking wine, so I'm just about going nuts. I probably shouldn't even be on here today.

H has been emailing several times, all about how he never means to upset us, but we just don't understand. He wants to protect us from our...dumbness. He KNOWS that Chase is going to end up being an evil person and ruin our lives just like my stepmother did, but he's going to step back and let it happen because it's what I want...

And that he watched me ruin our finances with my bad decisions about rollovers and refinancing my car, but he's going to be big and not blame me for it - he says he has forgiven me for it - and yet he doesn't bring up holding on to our last house for 4 extra years because he couldn't be bothered to get it finished, so we spent 4 extra years of mortgage, interest, utilities on a second house we didn't even rent out. And I quit my dream job at NASA because I was too weak to stand up to him and will never get it back.

Just not a good day.

Hi Cat,

I guess it was the same at my school when I was a kid. There were lots of people who drank, and lots of parties where drinking occured, sometimes with parental supervision, sometimes not.

After having lived abroad for the last several years, the idea of a legal drinking age of 21 seems ludicrous to me. I think your dd's young man sounds like a typical boy of his age, with a good bit of honesty thrown in. His parents are probably teaching him a good lesson by not letting him drive swank cars that he didn't pay for. Good on them.

I heard a couple of things in your husband's letter.

1. He thinks you picture him as the bad guy, and that you gang up with other people against him to get your way.

2. That he is a reasonable guy who just wants a say in how his daughter is raised.

3. That dd is old enough to not hide behind mama's skirts when she wants something.

Perhaps you can say something to him like "from your email it sounds like you wish I would come to you directly with my requests. I have been afraid to do this in the past because it led to arguments, but I see this is the wrong way to do things. In the future I will bring things up to you and listen to your opinion. This doesn't mean that we will agree, but that I will listen to your side."

I get the strong opinion from your posts and your dh's email that he sees himself as the reasonable one, and that the rest of the world could do with his advice.

So, if you don't agree with him it means you don't love him. Hopefully with this email to back you up you can talk to him. If he explodes you can say "This is why I never used to talk to you about this stuff. I will discuss this again with you later when you are feeling calmer."

Excellent, Happy, thank you. Very appropriate. I did send him a followup email that said kind of that same thing. I said I didn't want to intentionally hurt him, that I was reacting, but that it was an unhealthy way to react, and that I wanted to get to a place where we can deal with things in a better way.

I also apologized for taking over the childrearing, so to speak, but also pointed out that D18 is really uncomfortable around him, and gave him some examples (taking her to Victoria's Secret to shop for her underclothes, saying sexual things around her and her friends, patting her on the behind).

He did make some concessions about how maybe he just doesn't know this kid yet, so I thanked him for being open minded enough to give the boy a chance.

It's turning out better than I thought, so maybe this will really be my breakthrough. Then again, if you guys don't hear from me this weekend...ears and jayne have my email.

The boyfriend's birthday party is Friday night, so I think I'll have D18 call her father and ask for permission to go.

I think some men have a hard time parenting teenage girls. This may be the case with your husband. From things you've said about your dh, he seems to see the world as full of peril, and this is reflected in the way he treats your dd.

Is it possible that your dd can start pushing back against the things that make her uncomfortable with her dad and that seem inappropriate? Like telling her dad "I will not go in Victoria Secret with you", "Don't pat me on the butt", etc.

That's what IC wants her to do. But she wants us to do it as sort of a united front. If D18 is with H, she is to remind him she's not a little girl any more. If I am with H, I am to show him what is not appropriate.

In his emails to me this week, he has basically refuted everything I said, had an excuse for all of it, and said that his life is so bad that (my reading) I should therefore not be expecting any changes from him because he's doing nothing wrong, he's just reacting to his bad life.

That's how he rolls. I tell him his daughter's friends are uncomfortable around him; he tells me how horrible it is to drive his 13 year old BMW because the windows won't roll down and he doesn't have money to afford to fix the oil leak problem.

We'll see what happens this weekend...

Your dh's middle name isn't Eeyore by any chance is it? When I was a kid people used to say "And what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?"

I don't think it matters if he refutes your statements, if you and dd stick to your guns, he'll have to change because you'll have changed.

Cat...I so know what it's like to be talking about something and have your husband turn the conversation completely around to be someone else's issue or another topic entirely. Frustrating. ((hugs))

Cat, I'm sorry to hear that he isn't validating what you are saying. I'm glad that you and DD don't fall for that stuff. Windows not rolling down doesn't justify putting his hands on his daughter's bottom. And after she's already told him how it makes her feel. I don't get the "little girl" thing, either. So if she was 12, like he sees her, then it's somehow okay to ignore her requests that he stop? I'm so glad that you don't buy into that, cat, and are willing to defend her.



It's not what he judges as right and wrong. It's what you are willing and unwilling to tolerate. Where you chose to defend yourself and your daughter. What is acceptable and unnacceptable for you. Where your boundaries are. How you and DD act from your own integrity. It's a reasonable expectation to think one of the likely oputcomes would be that he may not implement changes this weekend, for whatever reason. What is your backup plan?

Cat, this is a tough new stage, and I encourage you to seek out extra support, like CODA or Alanon. Where you can find long-timers who have been where you've been and have come out the other side stronger for it. Folks that you can call in-town to meet for a cup of coffee with you at a neutral place if your H is raging at you at home. There is safety in numbers, and I'm a little afraid for you. What do you think? Do you feel safe from harm? I remember in that book, that the woman's gut feeling was the most accurate predictor of safety.

Thanks, everyone.

I really don't know what to expect. I've never been this honest with him. Then again, he has keep repeating over and over in his (long) emails that he isn't mad at me. Like I'm supposed to be feeling sorry that I told him the truth, you know? Anyway, he does seem concerned that I'm upset with him and voicing displeasure.

I think if I keep it where I'm not attacking him, but just saying what MY feelings are, we might get somewhere. I did tell him that he is very difficult to live with. Hopefully we can get into that.

I need to remember to (1) not attack him, (2) detach myself from his emotion, and (3) stand my ground and not back down.

D18's boyfriend turns 18 tomorrow, and she's going to his party, so we'll be alone tomorrow night. That makes me nervous. Not for fear, just uncomfortableness. Like when you start a rumor about someone, and then you're stuck in a room with them.

Then again, he just may pretend it all never happened.