Look if the taxes bother you so, then why not just file married and separate? (We are talking about individual taxes, right? Not a business, but individual.)

Tell hubby, you may not be worried about the taxes, but I am, so I'm going to file married and separate for those back years.

This way, you cover yourself, and you send the clear message to your husband that you will not sit still any longer on this.

You can't force him to work on it with you, but then he can't force you to not file.

Thanks for the suggestion, EE. I've thought of doing that before, and even asked my CPA about it, and she advised against it for financial reasons. The reason it takes so long is he has expenses he has to claim for deductions, but he has no filing system. He creates piles of paper all over the house and refuses to use any kind of filing system, so there are probably at least 10-15 piles of paper a good foot high each, all over the house, that might contain the papers we need to expense it out. Whenever I've offered to take over the management of his papers, he blows up at me and I give up, and we end up in this place every year, or every several years, as we are commonly several years behind. Between his non-filing, and my depression, we're pretty disorganized and never get around to doing things on time.

But the main reason I haven't filed separately is that I'm a conflict avoider, married to someone who has even worse life skills than I have and tries to control things through anger, and I'm too afraid to say something like that because of the ensuing fight.

I'm sure to you, that sounds silly, and sounds like I'm DJing my husband and shifting all the blame on him. On the contrary, I'm very aware of my faults. I'm also keenly aware of my near-phobia of upsetting people, especially my husband of 30 years. I literally vomit before I can make myself deal with a confrontational situation. Not proud of it, trying to work on it in IC, but there it is.

fwiw, I have decided to take on the task of managing his paperwork hereonforward, whether he wants me to or not, and will be inputting everything in Excel on a monthly basis. My IC is helping me learn to stand up to him in issues like this. So this should be the last year I have to deal with it.

catperson,

It shows, you're getting positive, and you're taking steps.

You won't go wrong when you're headed in the right direction.

Just knowing the difference you're half way there.

Keep going.

Signed,
Fellow bumpy road traveler

OK, so you are making a decision to file jointly. So then what does it profit you to worry and complain?

Well actually that IS a filing system. It doesn't lead to easy retrieval of data, but to say he has no filing system is not accurate. He refuses to use one that YOU would use.

It's maddening, I'm sure, lest you should think I'm minimizing the impact it has upon you. However, they way you say this is not going to lead him into a discussion. It will however, lead him to become defensive or to simply retreat.

So then you have to decide which is more important, filing jointly and enjoying the financial benefits of doing this, with the costs of fighting about how it gets done, or going it on your own.

Is there anyway to make going through the files fun?
This is where it sounds like a blame shift. Because it is. I'm bad, but he's worse, so I just don't try, whatever.

It is largely a blame-shift. It comes across as making a token acknowledgment that you may have some issues, but he is always worse than you. He has worse life skills, etc.

So why did you marry this guy? I don't think I've ever read where you've said a nice thing about him. Is it possible that he has given up, is overwealmed, and that is manifested as anger. After all, he's behind on the taxes and his wife thinks he has worse life skills, is too angry, etc.
But is your husband aware that YOU are aware of YOUR faults. Have you ever said I'm sorry that I avoid conflict, that it makes me sick to even think about a confrontation, with anyone, not just you.

Has he ever heard that. Or does he hear that while you might be bad, he is even worse at doing life and relationships.

Instead, you are going to be his mother, managing his paperwork if he wants you to or not.

Let me know how that works out for you.

Cat,

I was thinking about your situation last night when I was watching the WE show called The Secret Lives of Women. Last nights episode was about OCD behaviors. One of the women they profiled was a compulsive hoarder. This isn't the first time that the idea that your DH might have some issues with compulsive hoarding has crossed my mind.

My mom was a compulsive hoarder. There are varying degrees on this spectrum.


The thing that I think is intersting about compulsive hoarding is that it is rooted in perfectionism. Why that may sound odd... how could someone who deals with their stuff (talking about physical stuff here... papers, his office, the garage, etc.) in what seems like a rather chaotic way... could be related to perfectionism really did make sense to me.

What they stated was that for people who have this issue... the problem doesn't come from them being lazy or irresponsible... it comes from the concept that they are task avoidant because they believe that in order to do something about the clutter or mess... that they put it off because in their mind they believe that the organization or task must be done perfectly and in their mind they have a picture of what that perfect system or clean-up, or organization looks like for them.

They become task avoidant because if it can't be perfect, the timing isn't right...the task of making it perfect is so overwhelming to them that they would rather avoid it all together. It isn't like they aren't aware that there is a problem either... they usually are.

Here is a link to a site that explains it better.

Compulsive Hoarding

I am not an expert on hoarding but I can relate to it on some level and I know that sometimes I am task avoidant myself when dealing with my own clutter and it mostly stems from me wanting something to be done perfectly and so if I don't think I can do something the way I want it to be done, I will avoid it. I really cannot stand clutter and so for me it is sometimes a stretch for me to just say... okay I am going to work on this and then accepting that I might not get the job done perfectly, but it will be better than it is right now.

Just some food for thought.

Jilly

Yeah, he's heard my problems, during MC (the 3 sessions he went to, before they asked him to come separately and he refused to continue); and while he's trying to talk me into coming back in the house after I leave with a knife and I'm so distraught over being yelled at and blamed for everything that I'd rather leave D17 with him alone than live with it any more; and when we had the conversation about him wanting me to quit taking ADs because it was embarrassing to him. Other than that, we don't talk. Unless it's about him and his work.

I get it, EE. I hear what you're saying, and I'm fully willing to accept the blame for our bad marriage. You don't have respect for the way I deal with my marriage, that's fine. I came here asking for ideas on how to build up my self-esteem enough to talk to him in the first place; I'm working on that. In the meantime, I do nearly all the housework and cooking and shopping and appointments and lessons; I listen to him and give him advice on his work every single day, sometimes for hours, and don't bring up me or my work because he interrupts me whenever I do, so I have quit talking about myself; I give him SF almost every time he asks for it, and try to initiate a few times a month as well; I try other stuff, as well, cos he likes it; I quit visiting my friends to please him; I rarely go anywhere without him because he wants to be with me 24/7 and he makes an issue of it if I go somewhere, so I just don't.

My H? He mows and edges the yard, takes out trash every other time, cooks about once a month, vacuums every few months, steam cleans the carpet whenever we have company, cleans out the catbox once every few months, takes D17 to school every day. Other than that, he's on the couch watching tv, working on his computer, or sleeping. I don't doubt he's unhappy. But when I ask if we can talk about taxes or money or plans, so we can get to a better place, he just says 'I can't deal with it!' and leaves the room. I've tried asking, I've tried waiting, I've tried eliminating LBs and meeting ENs, I've tried doing things myself. Almost 100% of the time, it doesn't matter; nothing gets resolved. Unless I do it myself.

jilly, that makes perfect sense. I used to think he was a perfectionist, he used to be very meticulous, but then he just...stopped. IC says he's depressed. I'm sure he's overwhelmed. And his work has been a disaster the last 10 years. I'm going to look into that, thanks.

I'm not sure you do get me, as you've attributed much to me, especially about respect that I certainly neither said nor implied.

Are you sure your husband is not happy? Seems to me is quite content to let things go along they way they are. Or if he's unhappy, it certainly has not risen to any sort of level where he is willing to act, if I understand what you are telling me.

There is more than one possible explanation. That's all I'm trying to point out.

Hi Cat:
I like the advice I have read in many books on marital stuff in general. The ONLY one you can change in your relationship is yourself. I chose to take this advice, and concentrate on improving my own attitudes, interests, ways of thinking, etc, and it has helped tremendously. Sometimes, if you don't have the right things filling your own world, you become very focused on someone else, to the point of obsession. Take up something new...like learning to play the violin, or taking a course at a local college just for fun, etc. Maybe volunteering would be your thing. If your husband sees you are creating a place in the world for you that is unique to you, he might be more respectful towards you, and you won't feel as controlled.
-
Hope this helps!
married 20 years
kids 3, 8, 10, 16
me - 44
him - 45

Thanks, berlyq, you're right, of course. I kind of devolved from that kind of person over the years because every time I'd make plans of any kind, he'd 'punish' me for it by creating a disaster at home while I was gone, and then blaming me for abandoning him and causing it, criticizing anyone I spent time with, upsetting the plans, etc., typical abusive control stuff. And I've just been too weak to stand up for myself. So now that I'm older, I'm reaching the point where I just just don't give a darn any more if I have fights with him, etc. And I'm trying to learn skills to stand up against the pouting, the withholding affection, the looks, the arguments, all the stuff he does whenever I go out and do my own thing. I'm trying to get to that point. I will.

My IC today told me to keep in mind I have the right to leave the marriage if I want, that knowing that is very empowering. I'd been so subjugated mentally for so long, that thinking that way just doesn't even come naturally any more; most days it just doesn't occur to me that I can leave. So I have to start making myself think that way.

I asked D17 to make dinner last night (she made tomato soup out of a can of diced tomatoes...), cos I was working on taxes, and as we all ate, I brought up the neighborhood garage sale coming up in 2 1/2 weeks. I said (per IC's coaching) that I really needed to get the garage cleaned out, I just can't stand it being this way any more (3-car garage, and it's filled to the rafters; I have to climb over the lawn mower to get to the freezer, and 90% of the stuff is his). I said that I wanted to start working on getting things ready for the sale. He said nothing. I said "Is that ok with you?" He said no. I waited, then said "Why?" He used his usual tactic "When are we supposed to do it? We have a baseball game, all your stuff..." (waving his hands vaguely in the air) - this is his most common control, to tell me that all of MY activities that I force him to do, day in and day out, leave him with no spare time and make it impossible to accomplish anything.

Anyway, he said that, but I didn't give up this time. I said 'well, I'm going to start spending 30 minutes every day.' He said, 'I won't be here (he leaves for China the day before), so we can't have it.' He doesn't trust me to sell stuff without him making sure I don't sell something at the wrong price; that's what he usually says, anyway. So I said 'Well, you can see what I intend to sell, and you can put pricetags on everything.'

Then he changed the subject, as usual, meaning conversation over. But instead of dropping it, I'm going to move forward and get it ready, and deal with the inevitable blowup this time. IC says I have to start setting precedents of not buckling under, smooth the way, so that he starts to see that I won't be talked out of what I want any more. So wish me luck.

She also pointed out that I can post an extension for this year's taxes and still be eligible for the President's $1200 whenever I get them done, and I hadn't known that, so that will take a little stress off. I can manage 2006 before 4/15.

Shockingly, he pulled out one of the piles of papers he has stashed in the kitchen cupboard, and went through it! Left it all on the floor in the living room, but at least I have room to put the glasses now. And he sat down last night after dinner and went through the pile of 2005 papers that I'd been asking him to define for over a week now, and finished it! I'm guessing that it's because of the garage sale discussion. I know secretly he's afraid of me getting mad at him, I just need to even the field a little to get more of what I need.

I'm also going to tell him that I'm going to be going through all the piles of paper the next two weeks, and filing and organizing. Whether he wants me to touch his papers or not. Give him the opportunity to get to them first

Wow, Cat, good for you for asking for the help that you needed with dinner so that you could tackle the taxes. That is so huge, to identify options and then act on them to take care of the business that's important to you. You are so motivating to me, because I'm working hard to be proactive about the things that are troubling me, too.

And good for your H for going through those papers! How did you feel about that? Did it make deposits for you? Did you or do you feel good about him? Or are you still way in the red?

If it did make a positive impact on you, did you mention it to him? Or did you refrain out of fear of his reaction or for another reason?


I haven't seen this specifically in MB, so if you're aware of something similar I'd love to hear it, but what do you think about listening and repeating, like when he says some thing like you force him to do things. Something like, "I hear you feel forced into doing these things on my agenda." And then Sharing your perspective. "I am okay with it if you choose not to participate in these things. It is important to me not to gain at your expense."



One of the things I'm working on is the language I found in the Thoughtful Request article, "How would you feel about...." I see how you start with POJA and Rule of Protection by not being the cause of his harm by running it by him ahead of time, and that part is great.

But like it talks about in that Master/Slave article from the Al Turtle site, I think sometimes I mistakenly add this asking for permission to it. Which takes a great idea, Rule Of Protection, and twists it into this wierd dysfunctional turning over my power thing. Is that what you did yesterday?

CP,

Your husband said something very important and you dismissed it. He shared his feelings. He feels out of control. The garage is full of your stuff and there is baseball...

Right or wrong, it's his perspective.

And instead of embracing it, understanding it, you just write it off as him being controlling.

OUCH!

Can you see how HE might feel dismissed and not heard?

So who is the controlling person here.

This is nothing more than a manipulative power struggle, and you are pulling on the rope at least as hard as he is.

You are assuming you know his motives and state that you are looking for a way to even the field a bit more to get more of what you need.

MANIPULATION and CONTROL, and it's not your husband, it's YOU.

Yeah, cat, that was great, for all the reasons ears said: you asked for the help you needed with dinner, you stated some boundaries (you can't stand the garage, and here is what you're going to do), and you set realistic goal (just 2006 taxes by April 15, and just 30 minutes a day on the garage).

ears, I like the example you gave of listen and repeat, esp. the part about sharing your perspective. Somehow I'd missed that part before.

I think I have definite pack-rat tendencies, for the reasons someone mentioned above - (ok, first negative comment about new format: I can only see the one post I hit "reply" to, not the whole page of posts, as I type this) - the idea that something must be done perfectly, and that later I might have more information/tools/time to do it better. The FLYLady concepts help a lot with that, but I doubt your H will become a FLYBaby!

But maybe I can give you a glimpse into maybe how he thinks, and what might motivate him. I see him going through one stack, or two stacks, as an indication that he is trying. And IMHO if he's like me, he WANTS to be better and to have these done, it's just scary to think something might be done wrong. If no one touches anything, then nothing valuable gets thrown away.

I really appreciate it when someone I TRUST helps me clean out clutter and paperwork. But if I'm afraid they might go through a stack I'm not ready for, then I'd rather them not touch anything. If no one touches or moves anything, then most of the time I actually can find things. But if someone starts moving things around, even if it looks neater to them (like, the papers are stacked neatly instead of protruding at various angles) then I can no longer find something important I need.

How would you feel about telling your husband, "Ok, today I am going to go through this stack at such-and-such a time, unless you want to go through it first, or with me." That gives him some control and he can feel secure that you won't touch the other piles without giving him a chance first. (I know, you've given him lots of "chances", but all together they are just too daunting.) Then provide him with several boxes or containers to sort things.

Same for the garage sale. It's good that you told him he'll have a chance to put price tags on everything. Another idea would be to provide a big box to put things that he wants to veto selling, things he wants to keep. This brings it more in line with POJA, and also might ease the scary feeling of loss of control. ("Someone is going to go through all my stuff and sell things, and I don't have time to go through EVERYTHING and make sure I won't need it in the future, and research online for the best prices, and finish all those projects or repair all those items that have been sitting there for so long...")

It's actually quite scary to me to think about that. My H is the ONLY person I trust (NOW!) to go through my things. My mom knows to not throw anything away without asking first. Everyone else, I'd prefer they not clean at all, if I can't trust them to not throw out paperwork, or small items they think don't go to anything, etc. BUT if I CAN trust them, I am actually very grateful if they step in and help deliver me from the horrible mess.

I dunno, I may be projecting. But if there's anything there that fits, great!

EE:


I think you misread cat's post. The garage is mostly full of H's stuff, in cat's opinion. The time is mostly full of cat's stuff, in H's opinion.

Although I do agree it is important to acknowledge H's opinion. That's why I like what ears posted, esp. the listen and repeat.

Believe me, I think I can see things from his side, and I'm not trying to bash him. That's why I posted what I did.

What I don't understand is why you post such harsh criticisms. Some of what you say has value ("Right or wrong, it's his perspective.") but IMHO it sounds like you just want to bash cat no matter what. Ears has great advice in line with POJA, and I can see H's POV, and neither of us is bashing cat.

Do you really think cat should do nothing about the mess? Do you have any constructive advice of something she could do, to enforce healthy boundaries?

Could you be projecting?

I didn't mention it to him, because when I have in the past, he gets angry. He says that by saying thank you or I appreciate it, I'm saying he screws up all the rest of the time. So I'm afraid to do anything, one way or another. I did cuddle in bed, which he likes, and I hung up some of his clothes to get them out of his way.

I feel so very weird doing the listening and repeating. We just don't talk that way! We tried it, when we did the 3 sessions of counseling, and it was just embarrassing. So I've been afraid to try it. I'll work on a more comfortable way to do that. But I agree I need to point out I don't want him to feel forced to do anything. IC says I have to make it clear it's not about him, that I have to make the changes for me ('the clutter causes me stress on a daily basis and I need to address it').

I knew when I asked, I shouldn't be asking, but it's the only thing that has worked in the past, because he responds to it; it strokes his ego in terms of me deferring to him, I guess; I don't know, just know that it usually at least gets him talking. But I like 'how would you feel about' better. I remember reading that, but for some reason it didn't seem like it was right. I'll try it.

I can identify with H in this too. I feel that way when my mom compliments me, like it's a backhanded compliment. ("Now that's a nice outift!" when I wear something she bought me rather than something I picked out.) And so I've developed a habit of questioning other people's motives when they compliment me.

IMHO I would've responded positively to what you did- give positive feedback in ways other than compliments.

I'm aware he feels dismissed; he informs me he's being controlled nearly every time I have asked him for anything. That's why I have stopped asking for anything short of what I have to have done. He goes to the bathroom every day in a room that has a pile of drapes and a drapery rod sitting on the floor because, 4 1/2 years ago, I asked him to hang the rod and he said he needed to move the toilet paper dispenser along the wall first, and there it sits. The drapery thing over the big window in the bathroom, he put in the top shelf in the closet 4 years ago and never hung up. The window boxes I started to install 4 years ago and he told me not to, he would do it, are now buried in the far back corner of the garage, under 6 feet of stuff.

The only time I ever talk to him is when I have to let him know where I am going, or what D17 has to do, or when we're having a discussion about his work and he's asking me for advice. Aside from that, I don't ask him for anything unless I have to, like the taxes, or the garage because it's all his stuff and I can't just sell it without his buy-in. I'm trying to learn how to talk to him without him rewording it so that he is a victim, which is how he works with everyone - PTA, community association, store clerks, neighbors (our next door neighbor hasn't spoken to us in 3 years because of a fight MrCat got in with him), every boss he's ever had (except one), our families - every event we deal with, he makes it about how someone is using him, abusing him, being unfair, expecting too much, or just wrong. He has embittered everyone we know, burned bridges with all of the above by his accusations. It was because of his fights with my MIL that she started a smear campaign against him that caused us to have to move. I used to apologize for him and make excuses, but I am learning to distance myself from him and the fights he gets in with everyone so that he can suffer his own consequences, and hopefully learn to not do it any more.

How do you suggest I embrace him telling me that he has no time, because I control all of his spare time, when I don't? As I've said, our only interaction is dinner, him watching tv or working on his computer, or SF or sleeping. Oh, and church. How do I embrace his opinion if it so completely askew? It is his defense mechanism, his natural defense against his mother and father, who made him work from the time he was 5, and always expected him to take care of everything. I'm being punished for that, in him suspecting me of controlling him just like them, even though it has gotten to the point where I don't even ask for anything unless it's essential. Please tell me what to say to him that would work. I need specifics.

Cat...

I was thinking that you don't have to thank him. You can show your happiness with what he did without thanking him, and seeing you happy about something he did could be what he needs in order to elicit some changes.

"Oh! I'm so happy you did that! That meant so much to me. Now I can do (fill in the blank.)"

It could be that he underestimates how one little act on his part could make you happy. So, it's one way of looking at it. Perhaps he needs to hear how happy you are but also how his action can allow you to do something else equally productive and show him by doing that, that one good turn creates another and so on, like a snowball effect.