Cat, thanks for the update. Have I told you how mucH you inspire me? It's very easy to get stuck in our familiar patterns, but you are doing the hard work to get out of them.

That is so frustrating about the vacations. BTDT. We went to Disney one year, and H worked from the hotel room while I took the kids to the parks. Honey, if he'd prefer to be stuck typing on a laptop in a hotel room than having fun at the parks with us, then that REALLY validates that those decisions aren't about not wanting to spend time with us. Hopefully next year, you guys will be better at negotiating for what you want together. Finding those win-win solutions. I get SO thrilled when we find one, because there have been times that they are SO few and far between.

About the counselor, we went to an MC who knew how to not press buttons. But at the same time, if someone doesn't want to change, then all the evidence in the world isn't going to convince them. I am hoping that all this work that you are doing, and the groundwork that the counselor lays, will leave your H feeling safe to try new things, knowing that he can try them and renegotiate if it's not working for all of you. Counselors are great because they can give us the motivation, insight, and new things to try.

Do you have a plan to protect yourself from his screaming if that's what he feels like doing Wednesday night? Maybe take two cars?

Thanks, eo. I thought about separate cars, but he has no idea where it's at, and he'll use that as an excuse not to show up, if he has to get there on his own, and then blame me for not properly preparing him. We've spent many many silent car trips as he fumes away about something we've done to him.

I had a sideways move forward yesterday, I guess. We had to spend a lot of time in the car, so I brought some of the MB stuff I had printed out. I read to him the condensed version of Basic Concepts, Love Bank, Love Busters, all that. He never said a word as I read it, didn't even acknowledge I was speaking, as usual. Home, he gets on his laptop and starts working, at 6pm. At 10:30, I shut my laptop and say I'm going to bed. He comes 20 minutes later, asks if I have anything recorded to watch on the tv, I say not really, as it's already 11pm (he knows I want to get to sleep by 10, 11 at the latest, as we get up at 5). So he blames me for not warning him about the time, while in the other room. I'm thinking, 'well, you've got a clock on your computer just like I do, jerk' but I say nothing, turn away from him. I hear him mumble something like 'well I guess that love bucket's empty.' He probably meant his own, as in I have once again disrespected him, but at least it meant he was listening to me when I read to him, even if he didn't get it quite right.

And it was the first time in 5 years I've said anything out loud about marriage, as in things that help or hurt a marriage. So I'd like to think it was a safe way for me to say that I'm thinking about the marriage and not entirely happy and thus looking up ideas for improvement, without us having to discuss it (i.e., without him getting angry and defensive).

I think I'm finally doing the work for a few reasons. One, I'm almost 50, and I'm finally getting to a point in life where I just don't care about how things are supposed to be any more. As in, I finally feel a little bit of strength and faith in myself, for some reason. Maybe I feel I've earned it after 50 years. Two, I'm so tired of being this close to just wanting to die and wishing I'd get in a car accident or something and just be done with everything. And three, I had told myself for years that when D17 left home I would have to make a decision on whether to stay; if I stay, it will have to be under different circumstances, so I've got to do something. Otherwise I have no excuse for what I put up with and the guilt for not changing will kill me on its own (can't say I'm doing it for the kids any more, ya know?).

Hi Cat -
You're right - it is a sign that he was listening (Love bucket, love bank - Lol!)

I'm wondering if you approach this, little by little, that he might try to work on this with you, if that is what you want.

For example, if one night while you are working on your laptops, that you say "Remember the Love Bank stuff I read to you? Why don't you check out some of the articles on the website? Or order the book off of Amazon?"

Didn't you say in an earlier thread that you were trying to get into counseling again on your own?

Cat, I really admire the resolve you have to get things sorted out. Your last paragraph says alot to me. I think knowing you're married to someone who isn't interested in working much on your M but choosing to be a good wife to him and working on yourself is a huge step.

I can tell that you're taking steps to hold up your side of the deal and it's been hard - just like it is for many of us - but you haven't given up.

I'm in a similar place as you - I'll be 49 this summer and no longer care so much what other people think or say (at least to a point). Example: My parents didn't know until last year that I have a drink of wine or a beer every now and then. I'm an extremely light drinker (maybe 5-6 times a year) but I didn't want them to know because I didn't want them to be disappointed. Well, I finally realize that my decisions about my life are about me. I don't do things to deliberately hurt them, but I don't hide things anymore.

Cat, to hear you say that there have been times you'd rather be in an accident to not have to deal with your life is very sad. I'm so glad you've decided to take steps to get rid of the root of those thoughts. You should be proud of yourself for doing the right things to make your life and your M good.

Thanks, guys.

Mrs2, I think that if I can find ways to do marriage stuff IF I'm not saying it's because of him, he's fine. He wants me to be happy. He just doesn't acknowledge his behavior as wrong, because he has to always be right. Someone asked earlier if he was narcissistic, but it doesn't quite fit. The true test will be tomorrow night, when we see the counselor.

I think that's one of the most underappreciated aspects of our lives, one that people rarely talk about - how we spend 10, 20, 50 years of our adult lives weighing what we choose to do with whether our parents would approve. It wasn't until my 40s that I even started feeling like an adult, and I had pretty crappy parents. The funny thing is, I think that they aren't going around thinking, hmm, daughter better not be drinking any wine. They're probably thinking, you know, we are so lucky she turned out so well.

D17 has a friend whose mother is a gold-digger. Grew up rich in Thailand, married an American, divorced, doesn't work, shops only at YSL and Ralph Lauren, etc., but he's been supporting her ever since, and what he doesn't provide, she gets from other men. She routinely kicked her daughter out whenever the daughter would disagree with her. Once she called us, I picked her up, said she could live with us, and the mother actually told me she'd meet me at the courthouse the next day to sign the papers! While the daughter was listening! Of course now, a year later, the daughter doesn't do anything to upset her mother. The balance has tipped completely, she's so desperate to be loved, and she'll spend the rest of her adult life begging her mother for scraps of attention or what passes as love. The worst thing, is that she's now starting to act just like her mother. But we are forever so very tied into what our parents do to us, for good or ill.

My mother was the kind who didn't mess with us. Never played a game with us, had her own life, and every comment to me was tempered with something like, "well, you could have done better, but I guess that was pretty good." So of course I believed I deserved no better when my husband treated me the same.

Is the separate car thing a nonissue? Or is that where he'll yell at you? My H did this, that's why I have my hackles were raised, but that may not be your case at all. But if it is, I'd consider a cab money well spent. Or let him not come at all, his problem to own if he can't find it but is unwilling to guarantee that he won't yell at you on the way home. I have no such guarantee, and my H finds it to be an LB if I ask for such a guarantee, so I take my own car. That's my problem to own, my fear of being yelled at, so I handle it.

It is sad to see how people live in fear of their parents. We can "set the example in love." That's one of my favorite quotes from FlyLady. Others have inspired me from their examples to try what I was scared to do.

You know, I just realized that the office is two doors down from our insurance office. I can just tell him that! Of course, we made the appointment for 8:30pm, thinking there's no way he could be working that late, not thinking about the car at the time.

Great. He just called me, and said to start helping him find him a new job, his 'dream job' is all messed up and he wants to quit. *sigh* He does this with every job, self-destructs it so that it's not salvageable, just like his mother does. He even told me recently that he thinks he's like his mom, in that respect. *sigh* Back to him being a miserable SOB all the time.

Cat, I think it's great that you're thinking of ways to ensure he can be involved in your daughter's health. You're certainly not making decisions for him, but planning ways that make it easy for him. There are so many people who would just cut him out and work with D17 to cut him out, too. Even though you have doubts about his desire and ability to be part of the solution, you're giving him a chance. Good for you.

What is your plan to deal with the latest career crisis with your H? This one is a difficult one for me, too. Our issues are different, but similar and I'm affected greatly by his attitude about his work. I walk on eggshells around the subject and never seem to say or do the right things. How are you going to set yourself up to not let his mood get you down?

That's a tough one, KLD. I searched for jobs for him for over 4 years, to no avail. He has no college degree, but he's used to making $70,000 a year, so it's hard to find that. It's all so complicated, between the job, sabotaging his own jobs, not selling our old house for 4 years cos he didn't feel like dealing with it, not taking the money we made on the house and paying down our bills (I just had to go to the bank and deposit $50 so I wouldn't bounce checks; that's how in debt I am), marriage issues, my own issues...frankly I just don't feel like dealing any more. I'm just tired. Tired of wishing I had a life where I was happy to wake up and not immediately thinking of what issues I had to deal with that day.

I think the first thing I'm going to do is to tell him that I won't start looking for jobs for him, because he has a perfectly good one, no, a great one, that he's just picking apart without trying to solve it first. I have been asking him to talk to his boss, the owner, about this other person who's causing all the trouble, for 2 months now, and he hasn't. Keeps making excuses, out of his fear of being seen as 'less than.' So I have to stop enabling him to walk away.

CP,

Have you ever read Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud?

Sounds like you H could stand to read it too.

Mark

Cat, have you read Hold's thread, where they discuss the Merry-Go-Round phenomenon, and how when one person step off, how it unbalances the equilibrium, so the others on the Merry-Go-Round try to get you to step back on with them. At Weight Watchers they call the same phenomenon Food Pushing, how people shove food at you to get you to try to sabotauge your efforts. Wierd, huh?

Anyhow, Cat, as far as codependence, that would be finding him a job when he hasn't asked you, right? (Eek, I just realized that's what I suggested to jayne last week. Old habits die hard.) Since he's asking you, though, what about only doing things that you are enthusiastic about?

No, but it's on my list. I'm supposed to read The Dance of Anger first.

No, I will look it up, thanks. Why does it equate here? What am I doing in that way?

I was wondering about the possibility that he was creating a swirl around his job because he is uncomfortable about what the counselor may say to him this time. Just wondering, not accusing or assuming.

No cat, I'm not saying that you need to look it up, I guess I was just saying, "Cat, here's a really typical pattern that happens to most if not all of us. The waves may well churn harder before they settle down. You can handle it!"

If he knew that his wife was looking at leaving him in less than a year, would he still think that this is a good time to introduce the uncertainty of unemployment? Is he missing information that he needs to make informed decisions?

Good guess, but my H is completely uninformed when it comes to our relationship. He refuses to even consider that there even may be any issue at all. Because I don't say so. Which is why I started the thread in the first place; I'm petrified to even suggest that I have a problem, because every 'complaint' is turned into me being selfish and hateful against poor, pitiful him.

I had a C session today, the first in 6 years, to prepare her for tomorrow's session with our D17. To warn her against what he will do if he feels we are blaming him for anything.

I wish I just wouldn't wake up each morning, and nobody has a clue, except maybe you guys. When I try to voice my opinions, I'm thrown back into my childhood, where I had no skills to save myself.

I have good hopes for the C, who is also seeing D17. Nothing else will work.

So, Cat. How was the atmosphere at home last night? Did you get a chance to talk to your H about how you feel about his job situation? Were you able to brainstorm with him some other options to quitting a good job?

I know this was only your first session with this counselor, but did you gain anything helpful in your first day? Or did you mainly just get prepared for tonight?

Do you have a method to keep yourself calm and relaxed today in anticipation of what may happen tonight? Have you reviewed your action plan for dealing with a possible blow up?

"I wish I just wouldn't wake up each morning, and nobody has a clue, except maybe you guys. When I try to voice my opinions, I'm thrown back into my childhood, where I had no skills to save myself."

Cat, this is why I am so proud of you for being brave enough to face this. Do you give yourself credit for all that you have accomplished already? You can do this, too. One day soon, you'll find that you're ready! You can bring your H&O into this relationship and see how it strengthens you, your H, and your M.

Do you have the HNHN book? Have you looked at the exercises for the EN Honesty and Openness? Would your C be willing to work with you on this now, or does she have a different order for you to take this in?

What's your plan?

I was at a meeting til 10, so we didn't really talk, but the guys at work took him out for dinner because Monday was his birthday, so things were a little better, he got his ego stroked a little. I talked to him again this morning about going in to see the boss before he goes making any decisions. He hem-hawed, and I said, Look, how can Boss fix anything if you don't tell him it needs fixed? He said, well, I've mentioned I don't like how Other Guy is working. I said, Yes, but did you tell Boss that it's bad enough that you're thinking of leaving? How can he take it seriously if he doesn't know that? You owe it to Boss and everyone else to tell him the truth. He wants to know the truth. So do him and everyone else that favor. (They all hate this other new guy; he sits in his office watching movies and making phone calls instead of working with the salespeople.) He said he would.

I love the counselor. I got in a whole lot of information in an hour, about my FOO and his FOO, our previous counseling encounter, and our marriage, and I helped her figure out a couple ways to talk to him about giving D17 more freedom without making it an attack on his beliefs. Such as, you want to protect her so you don't let her go on dates, but if you don't let her do it here, her first experience will be 6 hours away at college, where you won't be able to help her learn how to do it safely. I think it'll work. I'm hopeful.

It doesn't matter if I get calm to prepare, I'm never calm anyway, so worrying about tonight won't feel any different, but thanks for asking about it.