I'm so hopeful that this C will be helpful to you and D17 as well as your H (even if it has to be in a back door sort of way).

"It doesn't matter if I get calm to prepare, I'm never calm anyway, so worrying about tonight won't feel any different, but thanks for asking about it."

This statement is a red flag for me, Cat. Finding ways to chill out and relax and not worry is so important to all areas of your life. Worry does absolutely no good, anyway, so why not try to find a way to not do it? Worry will eat you up inside.

It sounds like maybe your H will take a second look at his situation and realize that the best thing to do is not run away from conflict. I so admire you for being there as help to him but realizing that he has to get through this on his own. It's hard to find a happy medium and the right place to be sometimes. I usually either want to just take care of it all myself or do nothing and not have to hear about it. Finding the right balance is a big challenge for me and it sounds like you're making big strides in that area right now. Good for you!

Cat, in a very short time I've come to respect what you have to say. Please know that I'm praying that you will be able to take the big steps toward getting your life where you want it to be.

Thank you. It means a lot to me to hear something nice. The world I've created doesn't have much room for that. I remember when I was seeing a C 5 or 6 years ago, every time she would tell me I was pretty or smart or capable, etc., I would burst into tears. It was really weird, actually. It was like a trigger for the tears, I guess because I so desperately wanted to hear it and believe it, and I usually achieve neither.

You're right, though. I need to change how I'm living. I've been thinking about it, on the periphery of my vision, so to speak, knowing that thought is out there, but afraid to actually turn around and look at it, because it will cause conflict at home. And I avoid conflict at all costs. I think the biggest thing I'll get out of the counseling is learning how to 'speak' - how to respond when H does one of his triggers. Once I feel 'armed' with appropriate responses, I'll feel safer to branch out, and work on taking care of me.

It's definitely a process, Cat. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. You really do seem to know what to do you just have to gain the courage to take that next bite. I know you will do it - you've already started the process.

Cat, do you see that?! How you and your H are fighting the same battles with it being easier to walk away than to find the courage to be H&O.

My H and I do that, too. Fighting the same battles. What a journey to take together!

Huh. You're right. I never thought about it, how he does the same thing.

Hi cat, I haven't written on your thread in awhile but I am reading and learning too! There's so many similarities in our situations. There's an elephant epidemic!

You are getting such great advice, I just haven't had anything to add.

But I can certainly add my voice in telling you that you must be the fastest learner around. Your wisdom is so apparent in your posts to other folks here. You are making great strides and working so hard.

I'm sad to hear that you wish you wouldn't wake up in the morning. I think there is a lot of hope for you with all you are doing. Tremendous hope. Regardless what your H does, YOU are going in the right direction and things are looking up!

I'm glad yesterday's C session went well. I understand needing some prepared responses before going into a conflict. If I can learn to approach H with some good statements that are respectful to both of us, then I know you can and will.

I look forward to hearing how tonight's C goes with H there.

Thanks, jayne. I'll let everyone know, may not be til tomorrow.

I understand, I didn't mean to pressure you to file a report immediately! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I think it went swimmingly! (always wanted to use that word!) My pre-advice allowed C to steer the conversation toward us wanting to help D17 spread her wings by allowing her to do stuff other kids do (so far he hasn't allowed her to go to the mall, or to a movie, without us, and she's only been on one date and that had to be to a restaurant). So he explained that there are kids and gangs at our mall with guns. So C explained that they are going to be everywhere anyway, and there could even be gunshots while we were right next to her. We discussed and figured out what it really was about was that if something did happen, we wanted to be right next to her to help her. But C explained that (1) she'll be away at college in 18 months and we won't be able to protect her then; (2) it's better to let her try these things out now, when we are close by so we can help her work any problems out; and (3) she's slowly being insulated away from her friends because she's the only one who can't do these things and they've stopped including her in activities cos they know her parents are too strict and will say no anyway. C pointed out that our style (his) is appropriate for middle school, but typical 17 year olds are no longer hanging out with their parents; at least not 90% of the time, like she is.

So there's a party - at the mall - on Friday at 5. Perfect. I helped C seque into reasoning out why she needed to go, and in the end he said yes, with the compromise that I would drive her there instead of her going with friend's aunt after D17 walked to friend's house from school. Silly thing, but it allowed H a modicum of control over the situation. C even got him to agree that, if the kids decided to stay longer than 8 (say, for a movie), then all she had to do was let us know.

Of course, H stated that if D17 had just asked her, he would have said yes (yeah, right), and he reiterated it when we got home, so he was able to establish that it was all just a miscommunication. That's fine. I got what I wanted. And, he agreed to go back! Because we never got around to discussing negotiating techniques for her, which is where the real work will be. But he left without feeling threatened. I love this C!

Do you also see your part in how this was successful, Cat? You helped make the atmosphere non-threatening to him and he felt safe "giving in" a little. Do you think he learned anything from this - even in a small way? If he is "right" and it was just a miscommunication, then there shouldn't be any resistance to working through some negotiation techniques. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm very happy for y'all that it went so well.

Cat, I'm glad that it went well! And I love how you all practiced those Four Guidelines to Negotiation in a safe environment.

I was a little afraid, reading through, especially given your history, that he would take it as the C negotiating DD17's "side." And that she chose words like appropriate, which get dangerously close to "right" and "wrong." Good for your H for thinking through his choices out of new information (Your and DD17's H&O, and the C's input) instead of out of feeling "wrong"!

Yes, I'm feeling pretty empowered right now. It's a heady feeling, actually accomplishing something for once.

He has a strong EN to look like he's the ultimate father, so of course when she pointed out that it is good parenting to loosen the leash in high school, he picked up on that and owned it. But that's ok. I think she's really smart.

I think it has set a great precedent, and the next session we'll actively discuss how to talk to each other. It will be about D17 talking to us, but I know C can make it be about all of us. High hopes.

He was a little uncomfortable, but he rode it out. I was jumping in and saying that it was me wanting to be right next to her all the time, and vocalizing that I had to let go of that, so I think that allowed him to be the magnanimous one, which is fine with me. She worded it in a clinical sense, as in it's important for a child to pull away from her parents in high school, she needs to test out this independence now, instead of being bombarded with it in college when parents are not there to help her. (although I jokingly told her I was going to quit my job and sign up for the same college <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So H was able to see it as him being the good father by guiding her into this new stage in her life, even if it is a little later than most. That's cool, I've been stroking his ego for 30 years, I don't have a problem - he feels good about himself, D17 gets what she needs, the household is happier.

Thanks, y'all, for all your advice and support. I love it.

I really feel for you in your situation.

Thanks. You edited. Were you going to say something else? You won't hurt my feelings, if you had some advice. I'm my own worst critic.

Cat, I posted last night to you, too, but I deleted it because it was "giving advice" instead of problem solving, and I work hard to identify when I do that.

Anyhow, the frustration/resentment/martyr complex/"done to"-ness you reflected last night felt very familiar to me. I don't think that the MB plan has any need or place for resentment. Only changed behavior and new perspectives. I love how LovingAnyway says that we are new, everyday.

I encourage you to read The Dance of Anger. And here's a thread with an exercise that gives great perspective.

Owning All Your Villagers

Personally, I think it should be a required exercise for everyone on the board or off who is looking to end their marriage/walk off their job/discontinue child visitation or any other such choice. Helps to put all those natural, understandable feelings back into perspective. They are information, good to know. But when we let our resentment flavor our thoughts, our words, our decisions as anything but information, IMO we are in denial of our own joy and power in our lives.


(((Cat))) better days are ahead, hon. You have the skills and information here on the site to create an awesome life. You don't need "to get your H to admit" anything. You can give him the information he needs, and make informed decisions together.

As an aside, I don't plan to knowingly send my kids to the mall with gang violence with guns either, even if they started getting less invitations. There are other solutions, like driving the kids farther to a mall without gang gun violence. Getting your H to "admit" things isn't POJA. POJA is, "what would make you enthusiastic about this?" Which is what you described above.

I found out, reading your posts, that "getting someone to admit" and "smoothing over" are more trigger phrases for me. Imply that one person can control another, as opposed to folks sharing control.

eo, thank you. I will go back and reread my posts and look with new eyes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I often have that feeling of wanting to start over new every day. I keep telling myself, today, you will react to H in a safe, positive way that helps the M. So far, we haven't had too many bad days to test it on since I found MB. I have found that I am able to look at him with less resentment and with an eye toward less LB and more EN. So I'm sure that's had an effect.

Heh, when I went to the C by myself, she told me to get The Dance of Anger, and she also said that it should be required reading in school. Great minds, huh?

I'm going to read it right after I finish Pay It Down, to help with our debt.

The 'getting to admit' and 'smoothing over', I'm sure you know, are phrases that self-victims use when they've been in long-term abusive or controlling relationships. Everything becomes all about surviving without rocking the boat. My biggest struggle is to see myself as an equal in every situation. But I'm trying!

"The 'getting to admit' and 'smoothing over', I'm sure you know, are phrases that self-victims use when they've been in long-term abusive or controlling relationships."

Cat, here's a link that was posted by a husband in a controlling relationship. It's a short read.

The Victim Triangle

These phrases are used by all three roles. I've used that merry-go-round example, too. I've cheered seeing you off that merry-go-round, and I think it would be good to know why you'd be willing to step back on in words or thoughts, even if not in actions.

Cat, the part that bothered me the most was where you said that you were your own worst critic. LovingAnyway says that what you do to yourself, you will allow yourself to do to others.

I want you to know that I disagreeing with some words, but I support you. Progress, not perfection. But looking at where we are slipping or willing to slip is how we clarify and strengthen our plans to accomodate those situations, too.

Yeah, I knew when I said that, that I wasn't supposed to. But I'm just being honest. My self esteem is so low that I'm embarrassed to go to the hair dresser's, as in I don't deserve to get a hairstyle, I'm being selfish for doing so, and imagining the hairdresser not wanting to waste time on me. Also hate my looks, so I think why bother, I'll just be ugly pretending to be like everyone else.

Those things are life long, and immensely hard to stop doing. But I'm trying to act like I matter, so that I can start believing it.

btw, I saved that website so I can read it later when I have more time. Thanks. I like what I saw briefly. I think it will help a lot.