Hi cat,

I'll work on my self-esteem if you will. Let's both write down 5 good things about ourselves, whaddaya say? I'll go first, and I'll say it for both of us:

"You are a caring person who has demonstrated that on this board, and you are a good and helpful friend."

You really are.

You deserve to be happy as much as anyone.

Thanks Jayne. I'm ready to do that, that's why I'm here. I've found in myself and in others, that low self esteem is the hardest thing to overcome. Probably because of FOO issues, I guess, which continue to drive us til our dying day, eh? That's why I like counseling so much - it forces you to look at uncomfortable aspects of yourself so that you can overcome them. So I'm pretty psyched, having finally gotten back into counseling after 4 or 5 years.

H stayed off his computer this weekend, to clean out a tiny section of the garage (looking for something; but we did fill up one big trash can full of junk), then to put out the outside lights, on Saturday. I had figured we wouldn't do lights because of him working on his work project every spare minute. Then Sunday, after church, D17 went with the other kids to the Galleria all afternoon, so I started putting the tree up, and H came to help. We had some issues with the tree and then the lights, so it ended up taking 6 hours. I messed up though, because he was being frisky, as D17 was out of the house for once, but I told him I wanted to get the tree set up first, and then we could do some 'afternoon delight'. My reasoning was that, once we do that, he will most likely take a nap, and then my once in a blue moon help from him would disappear; I can't believe I'm that desperate for help from him that it takes precedence over everything. Anyway, his response was, get this: "Now you sound like a wife."

I was so shocked, I didn't know what to say. What should I have said? I just said nothing and kept on working. Unfortunately, it took so long to get the lights up (bad lights and all) that I had to stop in the middle to go pick up D17, so he never got that 'playtime' he wanted. I made up for it later, after D17 went to bed, but I know I should have made the effort in the day.

The only good thing out of that was that, as he was cussing everyone under the sun for being responsible for the crummy lights he was having to deal with, I stopped myself from owning his anger as my own, for the first time ever. I heard him saying it, but I immediately thought 'no, he's not mad at me; if anything, he's mad that he didn't have spare time to spend with me for SF.' That is a first for me, and I attribute that to MB.

ETA: This morning he called on the way to work, and I apologized for not responding to him and telling him we'd have to wait. He said it was no big deal. So here's the thing I learned. I project what I think is important to him, onto him. In reality, I have no idea what he's thinking, and to assume he would hold a grudge for not 'getting any' is silly for me to do. And communication, in the end, does away with that issue by showing my concern to him and by relieving the stress from me in not being a good enough wife. So I'm a little bit smarter today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Cat, you’ve got to be kidding.

Listen, by now, you should know that sex is really, really important to most guys. Sex is what we live for. The mind of most guys during the day, at work, at home, just revolves about how to get through the day so that they can get some.

You comment:
To a guy this is totally insane logic. It sounds to a guy as logical as “well, I’ll do a little gardening, take a nap, and then I’ll pick up that $5,000 in unmarked bills that I see lying on the busy sidewalk in front of my house.” Or “Yes, Hubby, I know that you cut off 3 toes while mowing the front lawn; we’ll go to the hospital just as soon as you finish mowing the lawn. After all, if you don’t do it now, the lawn wont be finished for another week, because it’ll be dark by the time we get back from the emergency room.”


Well, now you know how to get him to get things done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But you should do it a little less cluelessly. Something as “Well, Hubby, having all these lights around makes me so happy, and relaxed, and horny.” Or, playfully, “Hmm, if you be a good boy, you can get some. The sooner you finish these few chores on this list, the sooner you’ll see what I can do with my tongue.”

Ok I just deleted everything I wrote before submitting it... and I'll try to honor my goal of posting something helpful or not posting at all.

Cat, I think you done good by checking with H; finding out that he wasn't as upset as you thought he was. That's good H&O, and good to catch that you were projecting.

That's just my opinion BTW.

I know you're right. That's why I admitted I screwed up, and am disgusted with myself for being so desperate to see him do anything for the house whatsoever. But as for the method, it's really hard to 'come on' that way to a man I haven't liked in at least 5 years. It would by lying, or worse, acting like a hooker. IMO. But thanks, you're right.

ETA, since I was rushing for work when I first posted: We do have bedroom time at least every 2 or 3 days, despite me not really being interested in it, so I'd like to think I'm at least being pretty accommodating, generally speaking. Especially considering we've been together for 30 years. He tells me of his friends, and how glad he is to be married to me, since they're lucky to get lucky once a week, or once a month. And we've discussed it many times, and he knows from the few dozen times I've told him that I would appreciate a shoulder rub or a foot rub instead (I have plantar fasciitis, so I have perpetually painful feet) once in a while, but in the last 12 months he has done that twice, and each time lasted less than 2 minutes. So I'd like to think he's getting the better end of the deal. YMMV.

Jayne, I really don't mind hearing whatever else you were thinking. If I'm doing something I need to hear it, because I'm so enmeshed I can't see the forest.

ETA: As we were leaving this morning, I offered to take his bills to mail with mine, and he agreed but said "Make sure you mail them this time." I just bit my tongue and looked at him, so he came back with "well, you did forget to mail that bill that one time." So I just didn't say anything and took the bills and left. Maybe not so great, but at least I didn't engage in the DJ fest. I'm trying.

Wow. I think that you deserve a medal.

You do not seem to like your husband too much, and you do not care for sex with him, but you still are with him 2 or 3 times a week? It is admirable.

Can't tell if you're being facetious but, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I understand that sex is his number one need. Therefore I give it to him. I don't like him, but I love him, and I'm smart enough to realize that the main reason I don't like him is that I have been subservient for 30 years due to my not knowing how to stand up for myself, thus building up resentments as well as letting him get his way for 30 years. So that's why I'm here trying to learn how to make it more even, so that I get something out of the marriage, and that's why I'm going back to counseling, so I will learn to like myself and stand up for myself and not be a doormat. He's a nice person, but with bad skills. I hope to reach a point where I can share what I've learned in a way that he won't take as an attack and be willing to want to improve himself while I do the same.

I HAVE found, since coming here, that I can resent him less. That is a start.

Well since you asked... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It wasn't anything I saw wrong with *you*. I was feeling a bit perturbed about guys posting that the solution to all problems is SF... Ok it's not all guys and not all the time, but I had just come from wonderin's thread and was not happy reading that Gdaddy had told her she just needed to give him more SF! But he apologized when he heard what was really going on, so that's good and I shouldn't say anything. But I was still feeling defensive... then to come here and read AG tell you something similar, got my goat all over again. He probably wasn't saying anything that bad, and hey, I usually agree with most everything he says. But in the state of mind I was in, all I heard was another guy saying "If you'd just give your H enough SF all your problems would go away."

So I thought I shouldn't vent (last time I did, FH chastised me!) but look, here I am TJing and venting anyway! I should delete this but you asked, so I won't.

Enough about me. Good job holding back from DJing when he made the comment about you mailing the bills. I know that's tough, to bite your tongue and walk away. That's so much better than participating in the argument though. Do you feel good about yourself for that? You should.

I wonder if the next level might be, not just biting your tongue, but providing some H&O. One step at a time. I think where I'm at, I have to walk away at that moment if I don't trust myself to reply respectfully; but then later, I want to come back to him when we are both calm and relaxed, and tell him how I felt. So far, every time I've done that, it's been very good!

How would you feel about approaching your H and telling him how you felt?

Just as an example: you felt hurt when he brought up your past mistake; you understand your mistake and hope you've learned from it and don't like to be reminded of it; and give him an example of something he could say if he was really worried and just wanted to remind you.

You can probably come up with something better suited for your H. Do you think you guys are at a point yet where you could do this?


Would this be a good place to start? You could be very gentle, even talking about how you feel about your mistake with the mail, so that he will feel less "attacked." Everyone has flaws, and it's ok to talk about them, it doesn't have to be an attack.


That's great!!! Yes, it's a start, a good start. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Jayne. My thread doesn't generate much 'business' that I can apply specifically to my situation, so I appreciate any advice I get, and yours usually seems pretty spot on.

That's exactly what I was thinking, as he said it, but since he has to be 'right' all the time, I have found few times when he's willing to accept the notion that he has done anything wrong. For example, I had to take D17 to her piano teacher's today and 'do Christmas' with her for 4 hours, and when we get home, I'm treated to how put out H is for 'having' to clean out the catbox and 'all' the cleaning he had to do in the upstairs. Despite the fact that he did nothing that I asked him to do (wrap presents, pick up a present for D17, find his missing stuff).

But I'm working on finding ways to make it 'talkable.' We have a C meeting Monday night about D17; maybe C will be able to help him see our side. As it is, anything I say is a DJ to him; a replication of his mother nagging him.

As I sit here at 1am, after having given him his every-3-days sex, and listening to him snoring in the next room, having fallen asleep before he can even remember that there might be something I wanted, I'm having a hard time being charitable. Sue me, I'm human. I spent half the day attending to other people, the other half on my feet, outside in 40 degree weather, volunteering at a neighborhood event with plantar fasciitis so that my feet are throbbing (and H knows this), and as soon as he got his orgasm, he's asleep and snoring.

So to those men out there, how about a little consideration of your human frailties, and your wives'? Have you ever asked her if she'd like a shoulder rub? A foot rub? An afternoon off while you watched the kids so she could, for once, go to a movie that SHE would like to see, by herself or with friends? How often have you vacuumed the house? Washed 3 loads of clothes and PUT THEM AWAY? Taken the kids on an outing so the wife could plan 2 hours with her friends? Picked up the groceries so she didn't have to schedule the time along with all the kids' lessons and activities? Asked her which activity you could take off of her shoulders, so that she could feel like she's carrying just a teensy bit less weight? Offered to tuck the kids in bed so she could sit down and read a book or knit, with a cup of hot tea? Given her a gift certificate for a massage because you know all her spare money goes for paying for kids' lessons and extra groceries and teachers' Christmas presents?

I'm sorry, but I hear a heck of a lot of whining on here about whose needs aren't getting met. Well, guess what? Mine haven't been met in 17 years, but I keep on trucking on, because that's what mothers and wives do. Sure, there are some people here whose wives rule the roost. But generally speaking, it's the women who are taught in childhood to shut up, put up, not speak up, and GET THINGS DONE, because it has to be done. Men may bring home better salaries, but women bring home the salaries they can get, and then work another 20-40 hours a week to make sure everyone is taken care of.

{{{{{cat}}}}}

I'm here, awake next to a snoring H, if you are still here and wanna vent!

Hi cat,

I'm sorry I haven't posted much on yours or ears' threads. Most times I feel like you guys are getting better advice than I can give anyhow. Plus lately, I'm not sure why but in the yucky mood I've been in, it's been easier to post to newbies than to you guys or even on my own thread.

Like, I can be real mature when helping someone else. But my stuff, now that's a whole nother horse altogether! And you and ears, it's like my own stuff too, ya know?

I hear your frustration. *hug* Yes I wasn't happy about hearing "just give him SF" advice.

I think the tactic you're taking with C, letting her know H's issues ahead of time, and couching things in terms of "we're here to help D, we aren't trying to fix you" is excellent.

You sure seem like an awesome and intelligent person. I find it hard to believe you are struggling with self-esteem issues... "hard to believe" isn't the right phrase. I can believe it, because I know it happens. But it *shouldn't* happen. You're good.

I want to submit this now, in case you are still on.

Thank you. Sorry, had already gone to bed. Hope you're having a better day, too.

People probably think my H is an ogre, but the truth is, when I can get him to understand I'm hurting, he's likely to change his habit. It's just up against (1) my fear to speak up (the reason for the thread in the first place, looking for tips on how to overcome that) and (2) his fear of looking wrong so that everything not-great, that is not praise, is an attack. That's why I have to go around the back door, so to speak, to couch things in terms like helping me or helping D. I don't like it, but I haven't found any other way in 30 years that works.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

"That's why I have to go around the back door, so to speak, to couch things in terms like helping me or helping D. I don't like it, but I haven't found any other way in 30 years that works."

Cat, I want to see you feeling better, honey. It hurts me so much to see you DJ your H like that. You've probably heard this, but I'll say it again, just in case.

"Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

I don't think your H is an ogre. I think that you both have these patterns from before you came to the marriage, where it makes you two feel more comfortable to have one person be the ogre and the other the victim. And that you two change roles as needed. Doesn't make it true that either of you are an ogre. That's why we're all here, right, to find more peaceful ways to enjoy life than these worn-out patterns?

What do you really think would happen if you didn't sugar coat your H&O? What is the fear there? You're not in your childhood abusive home, hon. The survival skills you needed there are blocking connection with your H. You are safe now. Your H is a mature adult. He loves you and wants you to be happy. I'm looking forward to when you respect him enough to share your H&O with him.

Thanks, EO. Actually, I have a lot to fear by even just discussing things with him, let alone being honest about our relationship. Fear of being yelled at, silent treatment, throwing things around the house to show he's mad, slamming doors, going outside to sit on the curb and pout...all the triggers that make me want to throw up, cry, or try to kill myself. So I avoid them as much as I can.

I'll give an example. We sold our old house, and instead of paying off $60,000 in credit card bills, MrCat gave the money to his friend, a rich investment company guy (who he admits he feels like he has to compete with financially), to put into yet another 401K. He (the friend) was supposed to have set it up so that we could borrow against it, but didn't (he has a habit of doing this with our money - he gets it then he ignores us and we suffer). Anyway, I talked to our accountant, who got upset with us for not paying the cards off. I told MrCat "K is upset that we didn't pay off the credit card bills, like she's been telling us to do." His answer was to start yelling at me, "I don't give a sh*t what she thinks; she's just a stupid b*tch who wants to tell me what to do! You guys don't know what the h*ll you're talking about! I'm sick and tired of you telling me what to do with my money! And that stupid b*tch needs to mind her own f*cking business!"

Those are the typical responses I get when I discuss anything other than what he wants to talk about. So, typically, I just don't.

First off, ears is always great at getting me back on track. She's right about feeding resentment, of course. But I still see your dilemma and I'm not sure of a way out.

There should be something you can do, boundaries you can establish, to enable you to protect your financial future and that of your kids. I understand worrying about debt and finances. And IMO it would be better to pay off credit cards than to invest. If you are being charged say 7% interest on the credit card, then you would need an investment to pay better than 7% plus inflation in order to come out ahead.

Does your H seem to show anger with people in general catching him in a mistake, or just women? I think you've said it's with anyone, but I wanted to check.

Are you still able to see the C individually? Maybe she can help you come up with some ideas.

I think it's great that ears reminds us to not DJ. (Hey I thought that was my job!) Just today H and I are having problems, as a result of my approaching him in a lecturing way - LB. But I am not sure how I should have handled it. My first mistake was probably not planning ahead what to say. But it sounds like you've been trying that, right?

Did you do that in the sitch you describe above, about your accountant? Have you established boundaries, like you will not stick around if he uses foul language and yelling?

Maybe, rather than resenting how we can't talk to our Hs without sugar-coating things, we would be helped by letting go of our H's response, and just enforcing boundaries if they respond inappropriately? I don't know, it's worth a shot.

"Fear of being yelled at, silent treatment, throwing things around the house to show he's mad, slamming doors, going outside to sit on the curb and pout...all the triggers that make me want to throw up, cry, or try to kill myself."

Cat, I have all these same triggers. I can imagine how awful they are for you. To me, it was as if the abuser's actions in the past were still affecting how safe I feel in the resent. We have a new life now, Cat.

When my H yelled, I felt VERY unsafe, as if I were in severe danger in the present, even though I am no longer in danger. It took me until just a few months ago to really understand that. Jayne and LA were really helpful after my last panic attack; they really gave me perspective.

Have I suggested You Don't Have to Take it Anymore: Turn Your Resentful, Angry, or Emotionally Abusive Relationship into a Compassionate, Loving One. It talks about the HEALS method to recover core value. To retrain your brain not to go to those same places when you've been upset.

I understand that today, you don't have the skills that you need to feel safe while setting boundaries on what behavior you'll tolerate being around. Because it will take some time, with the C, with books, and on your own. What about looking at it as protecting yourself so you can heal, instead of it smoothing things over for your H's sake? Would that help lessen the resentment from building?

Our cards are so out of control, after him being out of work for 4 years, that we're more like in the 20-30% interest rate. He knows we have to pay them off, he just thinks it's smarter to do it by investing the money and then borrowing against 'ourselves'. The problem is, he's an uber-procrastinator; he can only do positive things when he's 'in the mood'; otherwise, he just can't deal with anything important. He doesn't know where that comes from, but it hasn't changed in 30 years. With all the bad stuff of the last 15 years, he's just paralyzed. And he refuses to hear that he could find a way out of it, through counseling or some other help. Because that would be letting someone know that he has any faults; because he can't be wrong. So we trudge along.

He has more of a problem with women, a lack of respect, but yeah, he pretty much thinks everyone is deficient. I'm sure that means deep down he thinks HE is the most deficient, but that doesn't help him on the surface. He's one of those people who has decided that all the minorities (he's white) are to blame for all our problems, so we get a little speech at least once a day about what they're doing to us. It wears you down after a while.

We're seeing her tonight for D17, we're supposed to work on her negotiating skills with us. I called her last week to set up an appointment for me, but she didn't call me back. So I'll have to make sure I do it tonight. I'm going to make sure H sees me doing it, so that it might help open up a dialog (since he thinks there's nothing wrong with us).

Yeah, I worked out the least offensive way (in my mind) to tell him that she thought we should be paying off the cards; obviously not. The money is a huge stresser for him, so he's extra sensitive to even talking about it. I don't think I could have said anything that wouldn't have triggered it.

When he did that, I told him I didn't do anything wrong, so he didn't have the right to yell at me when he's mad at someone else. And I went into the bedroom. Didn't help with discussing the issue, but at least it stopped the situation. That's about all I can handle right now. I'm hoping the C will find me a psychiatrist, so I can get back on meds.

My resentment is mostly at myself, I'm sure, not really him, for not being strong or smart enough to have kept this all from happening and to know what to do, so I probably need to work on that above all else; once I'm ok with myself, there won't be any resentment of him, because I'll be able to not take it personally. I'm hoping to get on a regular schedule with the C. Unfortunately, our deductibles start all over again in 2 weeks, so I'll be out another $1500 before the insurance starts paying for it. Oh well.

I have another book I'm reading, that someone here recommended, as soon as I finish "Pay It Down" for our money problem. And someone here and the C both told me to read "The Dance of Anger." And I've got several threads here I've bookmarked and am working my way through, and LA's wonderful response to me I'm going through again, piece by piece. So I've got a lot of reading ahead. But I'll add it to the list, thanks.

And I like the protecting idea, I will work on that. I know H loves me and doesn't want me unhappy, he's just got worse skills than I do. So if I can find a way to deal with this so that we both learn, I'll be happy.

Cat, I so admire you for what you're doing for yourself, D17, your H, and your M. I know it's hard for you to make these changes because you've been in your current pattern for so long.

I really feel that I'm in no position to give advice or even remind you of principles because I have so very far to go in my own journey - I feel completely unqualified to say much at all. I do want you to know that when I read your thread, I learn so much and I feel so deeply for you.

I've gained inspiration from your posts because even when you have setbacks, you get back on that horse and keep trying. I know you're filled with fear and I understand that feeling because I am fearful, too. Your ability to look inside your fear and resentment and understand where it comes from is so helpful in finding ways to deal with it. I know your H is selfish, but it's remarkable that you really get it that you have as much responsibility in this because you've allowed it. That's so different than most people approach things like this.

I pray that you'll be able to find ways to point your H in a different direction. You won't be able to change the person he is, but your reactions and decisions for yourself and your D don't have to be completely dependent on him all the time. I know you know that, but finding the way to deal with it that works for you will happen.