Thank you, KLD. You really struck a chord, and I needed that. I've wondered a lot lately about why I don't just leave, why I let D17 grow up in this chaos. But I think the bottom line is that he's a good person (and I'm not just saying that); he is never selfish, he volunteers all the time to help people, he doesn't cheat or steal or lie or take from people, he always makes sure I'm satisfied before he is (if you know what I mean), he loves us so much it's amazing...he's just a nice person. I know it's just our combined lack of understanding how to resolve things that gets in our way. So I know if I can just get to the place where I can overcome my childhood and make things work how they should, we'll be happy together. I can help him learn not to be angry and scared, if I learn it first. So I educate myself and am honest with myself. It's the best I can do. And I have to do it for D17, to make sure she's not taking away the bad with her, but rather the good.

But thanks for understanding. All of you. And btw, KLD, I could say all the same things about you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Cat, I see a lot of hope in the fact that, even though you may come here to vent about H, you are quick to point out his good qualities when you think someone here may be thinking he's an "ogre."

I found myself doing the same thing. I'd come here and complain, and Stella (love ya Stella!) would say "dump the bum!" and I'd say "no no no, he's really a great guy, for these reasons..."

And then I'd start thinking about those reasons...

And I'd feel more loving toward H, and somehow he'd seem to be acting more loving toward me. Go figure.

So that's why DJing even just in your own thoughts depletes your love bank.

If you want ideas for a specific problem like negotiating with H over finances: would it help to sit down and do the math together? I don't see how it can make mathematical sense to invest rather than pay down debt that is charging 20% or more interest. But I could be wrong. I don't understand compound interest. lol

Do you think he would agree to follow someone's program for getting out of debt, one of those financial gurus? Dave Ramsey has really helped us. He is a great motivational speaker too, that might be good in your sitch. He uses humor, and he explains it in a way that even I can understand. And he's a guy; that might go over easier for your H.

Just some ideas.

ps- We had some credit cards over 20% too. As of two days ago, we paid off most of the US cards, and what was left we switched to a new card that has 0% interest for a year. We are on track for having that one paid off by that time, also. This is 8 months after I started trying to get H to listen to Dave Ramsey. What really helped was us sitting down to do a budget and doing the "Debt Snowball." But that didn't happen right away - it took awhile for H to get motivated. I listened to the tapes on a car trip while H drove. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've never heard of Dave Ramsey. I'll get a book on tape and take it with us to Colorado. Thanks.

You can get a lot of info from his website, which you can find easily by googling. (I don't know if it would be considered advertising if I were to post the url.)

In fact, I wonder if you'd just want to borrow the tape series from me? We have the Financial Peace University series. And borrowing things like that are actually in keeping with what he teaches, so I think it would be ok. If you want to, let me know.

Thanks, Jayne. But wouldn't it cost just as much to ship things as it would to buy? I have to take back my Pay It Down to the library this week. I'll look there first, and let you know if they don't have it.

We went to our second joint C session with D17 last night. MrCat was very enthusiastic about going, so that was good. But the session just ended up being about her inability to stand up for herself among her friends, nothing about the family, so it was kind of a waste of time. I kept trying to steer it toward that stuff, since the C wasn't, but we didn't, so all in all it was pretty stressful for me. It was weird, but I was using the time as my own personal way to try to get MrCat to deal with our family issues, you know? Cos I'm too chicken to just tell him that I want him and me to go to counseling, because then it would have to be out there in the open that I am unhappy. I feel badly that I usurped D17's time for my own gain because I'm too weak to do what I need to do. So all in all, I was pretty depressed, as in 'look what levels I have sunk to.'

The only good that came out of it (aside from discussing D's need to be more assertive) was that he's still willing to come to another session, where we're supposed to work on D's negotiation skills with us, and that he was right there when I asked for my own appointment with her. He looked really strange when I did that; I think it shocked him. He has conveniently forgotten that I was in therapy for several years and requiring antidepressants, which he knew was because of him and me.

So many things to read, so little time to just sit down and absorb what I'm reading or come up with solutions, I'm just too stressed out to deal. I'll just get through Christmas and New Year's (annual party) and then set goals for January, I think.

So, Cat, you have raised the issue of your unhappiness in the past? When you were in counseling before, how did it help? What was his reaction to all that? How much did you tell him then? Why did you stop counseling and ADs?

I so understand about the holidays and January for new goals and new beginnings... I'm right there with you.

Cat, I see why you feel bad with how things went. Given that you and H have this same struggle your daughter is working on, the learning to stand up for yourselves, I think this is great for you all to be there, so you all can share with each other how you're trying these strategies that the C is suggesting, and how it's working for you. Where it's still hard. So you three can support one another together. Like we do here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


(((Cat)))

We have a really weird communication system. Because he won't 'deal' with things, such as taking 4 years to fix up our old house to sell it, because thinking about all he's up against just makes him pretend it's not there (even a house!), any topic I bring up usually results in an angry "I can't deal with that right now."

I told him I had started going to a therapist, back at my old job (it was free) and that I had started ADs. He asked why, and I told him that I don't know how to deal with adversity, that I'm afraid to tell people what I'm thinking, that when he does something that upsets me I don't know how to talk to him about it, so I was going to learn how to communicate. He never mentioned it again, and neither did I, until my C told me that she wanted MrCat to come in. So I told him that I was having trouble moving forward, and that I needed him there to help me. He agreed. Like I said, he doesn't want me to be unhappy and he's willing to help or change if I can couch it in terms of it not being due to him; he just wants to make sure no one thinks it has anything to do with him.

So at first, he came and the C helped me talk to him about feelings, mostly we talked about how I learned to be afraid cos of my dad. Which was fine with MrCat, because it was Dad's fault, not his. We tried doing all that "I hear that you're saying" stuff. But after about 3 visits, when all the issues kept coming back to my inability to negotiate with MrCat on issues, the MC told him that she'd like to see him individually. Suddenly he wasn't the savior any more, he was the culprit. He refused. So she said she couldn't see us together any more without first seeing him. So he cussed her out and left.

About a year later, after we had moved across town and I wasn't seeing the free C any more cos I had had to quit my job to earn more money (because the other house hadn't been sold yet), he mentioned my pills, saying he didn't understand why I needed them, and some other stuff. Since the C was all the way across town anyway, I used that as an excuse to stop seeing her, and wean myself off the meds.

So basically, I just caved, on all accounts. Because giving up on myself is easier. Weaker, but easier.

Which brings me back to my original post again - I literally throw up before I can bring up touchy stuff like this by myself (which is why I was so greedy about having MrCat in front of a C again). It makes me sick to even contemplate standing up to anyone. So I'm going to make that my plan with the new C, to get to why I'm so very terrified of confrontation, and learn how to overcome it. And how to tell him what I want without - or in spite of - him taking it personally.

I want him to improve, too, so he can be happy. So he can quit sabotaging his relations with other people too, whom he all suspects are out to get him, in one way or another (he can be very antagonistic and caustic). The good thing here is that, because of the 4 years without a real job, he is less proud and sure of himself, and earnestly listening to my advice about his work situation. So I see him using what I say more often, and getting good results. The more that happens, the more he'll trust me that I know what I'm talking about in our own situation, I think.

Cat, now I do remember that you posted that he got mad and left when it turned out that he needed to make some changes. Your H sounds kind of like an ostrich.

I'm glad you're trying to work through why you're so afraid to approach him with something you want or need. Do you really feel this way about standing up for what you believe or what you want to anyone? What about D17? What about at your job? I know you've spoken of issues with your FOO, but what about siblings? Friends?

I know this may sound too simplistic, but have you ever just sat down with him and told him how afraid you are in terms of it being about your own problem? Maybe that you could use some help from him to deal with this because you know he loves you and wants to help you?

And JMO - you can't worry about his other relationships for him. That's his stuff, not yours. I know it affects you - maybe embarrasses you or makes you have to deal with a bad mood from him when he gets into it with someone else - but it really is his issue, not yours. This is a really difficult one for me, too, because I worry about my H's relationships with others. I know you want him to have a full life of friends and fun, but that's really up to him and not you.

I think you're job is to get yourself to the point where you can talk to him about how you feel and what you want and then lead by example as you can. Maybe when you're further down that path and more trust has been built, you can branch to discussing how he interacts with others if you can do it in a non-DJ way.

It is great that he's started listening to you more and taking your advice. That's a big step for him, I'd think, and one that he's probably at least a little uncomfortable with though he may never admit that. He seems like one of his ENs might be admiration, so telling him how proud you are of him for making X decision, or whatever might be a good thing to get him into a more positive frame of mind.

cp

I don't know how I missed it before, but I just noticed your thread. I didn't read all the posts, just tried to get the jist of where you are "now".



Maybe the root of your fear is if you confront your H, he will abandon you like your dad did.

I'm working on learning to deal with my fears. One thing that has been really helpful to me is a book my IC gave me to read called "The Fear Book". One thing it says is that fear is a signal that we're leaving our comfort zone. If we give in to the fear, we're shrinking our world. If we view fear as MORE than a signal, it actually becomes our enemy.

I don't know if this will help you. But its been really helpful to me, so thought I would pass it on.

(((((cp))))))

Tama

P.S. One of the fears I've been working through is posting to others here at MB. I'm taking baby steps, but I post more than I use to and learning not to judge myself when I lose the "battle". For today, I'm a winner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, tama. You're probably right, but honestly, the last few years, I really wished, really hard, that he would just get an affair or leave or something, take care of it all for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll add that book to my list, thanks.

I know you said that as a joke, but I think there's some truth to it.

Have you ever stopped to think that by doing or saying nothing, you are in fact doing and saying A LOT?

For every action, there is a reaction. Contrary to what some may believe, inaction is in fact, an action.

Something to maybe think about....

Tama

Hi cat,

I'm sorry the session with the C didn't go as you'd planned, but maybe the C had a different agenda, focussing more on D. And also, you don't want D's sessions to start to look to H like you guys are ganging up trying to "fix" him.

I think it's good for you to discuss all this with C in your own session; and that H saw you ask about your appointment. I don't really have anything to add to what everyone else said.

PS- Re. the Dave Ramsey tapes - I hope you don't think I'm trying to push them on you! What I have is the FPU course, it costs about $100 if you do it through a church group (or military or other group?). I think it's more online.

OH. I didn't realize it would cost that much. Let me try the library first, and I'll get back to you. I'll check with my church, too. They (Lutherans) have a huge financial institution in place. Thanks again.

And you're right about the C, that's why I was feeling so bad. It wasn't my appointment to usurp, and I should be grown up enough to not do that, so I felt mad at myself.

I've told him before, back when I was in suicide mode, that it was all because I was afraid to talk to him, that his anger and negativity issues are driving it all, that and my fear of confrontation. So he's heard it all before. Like I said, he just chooses to forget it's there, maybe assumes it's magically all better somehow because I quit mentioning it.

Ok, let me know if you decide you want me to send the tapes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

By the way... and I think you are in a good enough place to hear this right now... I hear you giving your H a lot of power over your own emotions. I understand what you mean, but I think a healthy goal would be for you to take back the power over your own emotions and actions. I'm referring to when you say "it was all because I was afraid to talk to him, that his anger and negativity issues are driving it all, that and my fear of confrontation."

IMHO your focus should be on your fear of talking to him, your fear of confrontation - and not on his anger and negativity issues. Work on overcoming your fears so that his anger and negativity are his, and you can choose to not react to them.

And that won't happen overnight... so if you feel yourself being influenced by his anger and negativity, don't be ashamed to let us know... especially if there's even a slight chance you are slipping back into that mode you mentioned... 'kay? *hugs*

Jayne, I haven't had time to look into the tapes yet; I'm supposed to read The Dance of Anger before my C session next week, so that's my next step.

Update: Got back from a ski trip, during which I was responsible for packing everything (my choice) because D17 and H skiied and I didn't. Well, turns out, I forgot to clear out one drawer at the resort that contained H's very important pocket notebooks that contained all his work information. I figured out last night, after unpacking, that I had forgotten to empty that drawer, and I barely slept last night, scared to tell him. But I forced myself this morning to tell him and he was remarkably unemotional about it. I told him that I was calling them today to try to find them, and he said nothing. A big change from what he would have done a year ago, and I don't know why. I tried to do what you said, and detach myself from his (potential) anger, and just blurt it out.

I've realized that what I'm afraid of, even more than anger, is his 'disappointment' which is definitely a FOO issue for me. My father, then my brother, then my ex-fiance, all controlled me by letting me know I had disappointed them. MrCat easily fell into the same pattern right away, and it's been like that for 30 years because I never questioned it and always took on his 'disappointment' as though I deserved it. So I tried to make myself feel like a grownup this morning, as I brought it up. Of course, I haven't heard back from them, so I'm losing hope they'll find it, so there might be worse to come. The only saving grace? He lost $500 cash on the trip out of his pocket, so he may be coming to the table from a slightly less elevated position (in my mind and his).

And on top of that, H's dog's at the vet's today for a tumor biopsy, and he called and said it's almost surely malignant. So we have to deal with that, too. And I had to call my credit union today and apply for a consolidation loan because I can't pay my bills, and I'm waiting to hear if I'll get it.

Sorry for grousing. I'm just a big fat mess today. I'm tired of being uptight all day long, every day, and I just want to go to bed.

{{{{{{ cat }}}}}}

I'm sorry to hear about the lost notebooks and money, and about your H's dog. Tough homecoming. But I'm proud of how you faced up to the things left behind and let go of his response. I hope the hotel staff found and held onto them.

Interesting realizing the FOO connections.

No worries about the tapes, no rush. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think the Dance of Anger is awesome too. I need a refresher course, it's been years and all I remember is the "change back" behavior to expect. It's in a box under my bed. Maybe I should read it with you! I said the other day I'd find it and read it...

Oh... re. the consolidation loan, make sure it's the right thing to do. If you are including low-interest loans with the high-interest loans like with a debt consolidation service, then you may not come out ahead. But if you are doing this on your own, taking out a lower-interest loan to pay off higher-interest credit card loans, then that's ok IMHO. But it's also important to change the behavior that got you to that point, or you'll end up with the credit union loan plus some more credit card debt too.

Cat, when you said we had a lot in common, I can see why. We do both have a keep the peace personality. After I read the Secret, I worked very hard at living my life in a way that would produce the result I wanted -- peace.

But my old therapy sessions were nagging at me. When my husband and I were first together, I could do no wrong. About the time I moved in, I could do no right, but he was still civil. Whenever I try my best to keep the peace -- and just do what he asys -- we have our happiest time.

But that feeling that you are selling your soul keeps nagging at you. That feeling that you don't deserve to be treated this way keeps nagging at you. That feeling that your child shouldn't see you being treated this way -- and learn that this is acceptable -- keeps nagging at you.

And that feeling that you should be standing up for yourself, even if it is work and might cost you the life you have at the moment, keeps nagging at you.

My husband sounds like yours in some ways -- the clothes, what a nightmare. However, he is cleaner, doesn't like a lot of clutter, so we can work together on projects. I'm disappointed that he doesn't do more, like mow the lawn and get right on household projects, but since my health is up and down, I look at as a trade. He has to put up with the house having disaster zones that I eventually will get to when I am feeling good. I don't think near as bad as what you are describing, because that is neglectful clutter by your husband, but my husband must tolerate the kitchen needing cleaning for a day or two. The laundry may fall behind. For the most part, I feel I keep up. We have company a lot, almost daily.

He is saying the same thing about doing things for us, for our future. It is frustrating as I don't know if he really means for us to have a future. I believe your husband intends to stay married least. I am happy for you on that point, if in the end, that is what you want.

I feel for you. It does seem we have a lot in common. I will keep an eye on this post to follow your progress. Hugs.

Jayne, all my credit cards are at at least 20% interest, so anything will be a savings. My biggest money issue, stupidly enough, came about because of my fear of my H learning I had overdrafted, and so I would borrow a couple hundred dollars here or there to keep from overdrafting, and to keep him from finding out. Just like a child. So now I'm finally at the point where I'm telling him the truth. I was so scared for him to find out how in debt I was, although he was even worse. But now it's out in the open, I can deal with it a little better. However, I still can't afford the bills. So if I at least get rid of one of them at high interest, I'll be better off. I'm not using credit cards any more, so I'll get there. The sad things is, we made $120,000 on the sale of our house, but MrCat put the money into a 401k instead of paying off our $70,000 of debt, despite my protests. And then we were supposed to be able to borrow against it, but the guy didn't do it right, so we can't, so we're stuck yet again. He's so stupid about money, and I'm too much of a wimp to demand he do it right. But I'm working on it, so I will prevail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

btw, the hotel found his notebooks and is overnighting it all. Thank God! Thanks for your support.

Yay bout the notebooks!

Ok, I know you'd do it for me so I'll do it for you... you realize you DJ'ed right? Maybe you just said it for emphasis...?

Good for you on the completely giving up credit card use! Also on the H&O about the finances! I see growth... telling him about the debt, and about the notebooks...

It looks promising for a great new year!