Cat, boundaries were SO HARD for me until I realized that it wasn't deciding on good boundaries, it was just clarifying them. In other words, I did have natural boundaries, I just didn't have the awareness that they were being crossed. It's still hard for me, LOL, because I still don't always understand why I'm feeling uincomfortable when I'm being disrespected. But it's getting easier over time.

I drafted my progressive boundary enforcements on my thread last week. Would yours look similar?

I know what you mean about some time alone, Cat. My H has traveled alot in our M and I never liked so much of it but when he'd been home a while and then went I always enjoyed some time to myself.

He has been in Houston this week, Cat. He is leaving to come home this afternoon. You might see him and not even know it!!!

I know it's difficult to get through some of those limbo times when you're not sure exactly what step to take next. For me, when I start a process I want to always be moving and it just doesn't always work that way. You're doing so well, though, Cat. You're so aware of the dynamics of your M and getting to the C was a great positive step. I see you preparing to implement and then doing it as it fits. You can't make 30 years of changes in 3 months. It's not reasonable and it won't be accepted in most cases. You're doing the right thing. It will work out for you. I know it will.

Just a thought: focus on changing one Annoying Behavior of his by setting boundaries <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. What is the singular most annoying thing he does on a regular basis? Where do you want your boundaries to be?

I like that idea, decide on just one AB. Maybe the public displays of anger/discrimination? Would you want to work out what you will do in such situations?

I just got home from a trip late last night, and didn't have much of a welcome home at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> There are probably some boundaries I want to enforce. I'll check out your thread, ears, I must have missed it while traveling.

I think that makes the most sense for me, vs - I'm so depressed it all seems like just one big monstrous wall to climb - and unsurmountable; thus the depression. Vicious cycle. So if I can just focus on one thing, watch for it, address it, I think I might be able to make it through. Maybe throwing away his trash when he's at the couch.

Thanks, everyone, all good stuff. I need to ponder awhile.

Cat, are you feeling any better after C sessions? Sometimes you sound good and then sometimes you remind us that you're so depressed.

What are you doing to take care of yourself while you work on these things?

"Maybe throwing away his trash when he's at the couch."

Does this represent respect to you? Respect for your space? What does it represent? Is DS a big EN for you?

I would suggest one that would make the biggest impact for you immediately. Actually, I'd suggest one "within your hula hoop." It sounds like the negative conversation is a BIG LB for you. I'd ask you to consider not participate in any more of these negative conversations. Redirect the conversation, ask for the negativity to stop, or go find another activity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But if the trash is bugging you more, then I understand why you're going with that one.

We're caught in this unspoken circle of him expecting me to do everything for him - make dinner, clean up, his laundry, pick up his dirty dishes. Most of the time, if I think to ask him to do it himself, he looks at me like 'you don't really expect me to do it, do you?' and doesn't. This goes way back. I once tried keeping a box in the kitchen and putting all his stuff that he leaves out in it; he just ignored it and I never carried through on my threat to throw it out - I'm so big into avoiding conflict. It's all tied into his mom nagging him so much for everything. For instance, he pulls a shirt out of the closet, takes it off the hanger, and just drops the hanger on the floor and walks away. If I ask him to pick it up, he just gives me that look and either picks it up or walks away from it. Either way, I feel like crap. I've got to stop taking it all personally.

So my side of the bed is relatively clean; his side has half a dozen boxes full of junk he won't go through (he just starts filling another box when the last one is full); his dirty clothes on the floor; hangers; dirty dishes, etc.

Again, it all boils down to my fear of saying what I think. Yet again. So I've been practicing how to say something.

Cat - I've been reading your thread and I hope to follow in your footsteps. I think our husbands were separated at birth.

You do need to quit taking his AO personally. I bet most of them are not about you. So many things play a factor (work, weather, traffic, etc. - anything can set them off). Your husband sounds VERY sensitive (just like mine). Everything is very personal for him, and that's something I can't do anything about (and neither can you). That's his demon to wrestle. All I can do is take it into account when I discuss things with him... which I why I think I'm so reluctant to talk to my H. I don't want to hurt him and I know I will when I'm honest with him. Could you be doing something similar? You don't seem like a wimp to me.

I may be 100% off base here. Just trying to help you brain storm.

WaterOak, they do sound similar, but my H has one other factor that I don't hear in yours. He makes everything be about him being wronged. He is a perpetual victim. When I picked him up at the airport, he wasn't where he said he would be yet, so I drove around and looked in the downstairs area. As I was doing that, he called from the upstairs area (and his first words were "What are you doing? You TOLD me you'd be upstairs"), so I came back up there. By the time I got there (this is all less than 2 minutes), he throws his stuff in the car, gets in and starts going off about all the f'ing people standing around smoking, and all the stupid people who don't know how to drive or park and how he had to stand there smelling their exhaust and the cigarette smoke, and how now he's sick in his stomach and feels like throwing up. No hi, no kiss, no I missed you...

This is a typical day for us. If he's not complaining about what people are doing to him, he's complaining about how stupid people are, how lazy, how corrupt...

So he never really turns this pity party off. So whenever I try to talk about anything, he instantly starts into how he's overworked (his choice), misunderstood, walked over, taken for granted, abused, used, you name it.

That's why it's so hard for me to talk to him. It's not exactly that I can't turn off taking it personally, it's more that he can't do anything but protect himself by blaming everything on someone else - typically me. Whenever I try to logic it out ("H, how can that be my fault? I wasn't even there."), he gets defensive and finds a way to turn it back on me.

So I give up and just don't talk. He's fine as long as we're talking about him or what he wants to talk about.

One good sign, though. He just called me, on his way to work, and I brought up him needing to call the guy at the investment company to free up our money so we can pay bills. He started getting defensive, and I just stayed calm and said "I can't pay my bills and you can't pay your bills, so it has to get done." He didn't blow up, he agreed but didn't promise to call; he dropped the subject and didn't resolve anything, but at least we discussed it.

Cat, an idea just came to me. What do you think about this?

Remember what Myschae said about getting a motorcycle for RC? What if you and you H found a hobby like this that

1) gets you out of the house so he CAN'T trash it
2) gets you guys out spending time with other people, where he's naturally able to squelch his negative commentary
3) gives your DD17 time to spend with her friends

Does this sound like a win-win?

Have you thought of printing the Freinds of Good Conversation/Enemies of Good Conversation article for your H? It will give you two a common language to communicate with. Then, when he gets into the blaming things on you, you can simply say, "Ouch, when you say ____, I feel like you're blaming me. Would you like to rephrase that?"

Or even try Listen and Repeat, or Listen and Repeat With Filter "It sounds like you are saying when _____ happens you feel_____. Did I get that right?" Try using non-confrontational language to express his hurt without the blame.

Would you be willing to call the guy at the investment company? Would that be a solution that you and H would both be enthusiastic about?

Good ideas, eo. I'll see what activity I can come up with. C says he's depressed, so that will also be a good way to help with that. He quit playing sports with me years ago because I always beat him, but with all my health problems he could probably turn that around. We used to play raquetball a lot. Would help with my weight loss, too. Maybe a cooking class; there's a new cooking school nearby. And our church has a dinner group. Hmmm.

I will definitely print that article out, too. Thanks for reminding me. It was on my list ages ago, but I have a hard time following through on things.

I told H that I would call the guy, but I don't even know anything except that he works at X company, don't even remember his name, and there are at least 20 offices in town. But of course he said no, he'd do it. So I will wait until tonight, and if he didn't call, I will go through our paperwork until I find the information and call him Monday.

Thanks for the suggestions. It helps when I get concrete things to do, cos the depression keeps me from thinking things through a lot.

Reading your description of picking him up form the airport, I could identify with the confusion from a lack of communication. If my H and I were supposed to meet each other somewhere, you could almost bank on there being some confusion that would mean frustration, anxiety and wasted time.

What I think I hear in your description is that when your H wasn't where he said he'd be, you worried that maybe he was actually some other place, waiting and getting angry - you didn't want him to be getting angry, so you went to another possible location to see if he was there - then he called you from (I think) the agreed-upon place after all, waiting and getting angry (the sitch you were actually trying to avoid).

I can certainly see myself doing something similar.

One thing that bothered me was thinking how functional couples would handle such sitches. Other people seemed able to handle such things. Reading what you wrote, it strikes me that another couple might have more *trust* that their spouse will in fact be at the agreed-upon location, and if they don't both arrive at exactly the same time, the first one can trust that the other will arrive as soon as possible - so each one is able to sit and wait.

Neither has to second-guess the other (could he be thinking of another place?) and neither is getting angry (I trust her to be here, so if she isn't here exactly right now, I'm sure there's a good reason and she's doing the best that can be done right now).

That looks totally different from what H and I were doing.

So I started making a special effort to cover all bases in plans to meet: "So we are talking about this particular place, right? Not the other place? Ok. So if you aren't there when I arrive, I don't need to look elsewhere, right? And if you get there before me, you aren't going to try to figure out where I went, you are going to stay there and wait, right?"

Actually a MC helped us start this. We had a communication breakdown on what we meant when we said we'd take the kids swimming. My H (who was on the swim team in high school!) meant he'd stand in water up to his knees so his clothes don't get wet, and watch the kids splash around. I meant, I'm taking my bathing suit and I'm going to help the kids get out over their heads, but I can only do that to one kid at a time so I need you out there with me!

So the MC suggested we CLEARLY define our terms before-hand.

Even if I think H was being passive-aggressive or deceptive or whatever, I can avoid the bad sitch by consciously being aware and clarifying things before-hand.

In the case of picking him up from the airport, perhaps your boundary could have been to take him at his word instead of trying to second-guess him. If he was in fact at the lower level, you would still be able to say "I was just going on what we'd said, barring a phone call from you asking me to meet you elsewhere. Thanks for calling me from the lower level, I will be down there as soon as possible." Then if he's angry, that's his problem - you followed the agreed-upon plan.

That makes a lot of sense, and I did worry he was downstairs. The only other wrench in the works is that I am not allowed to stop my car to wait for him, with airport security as it is. They don't even let you slow down without waving you on to keep moving, unless a person is actually getting out of your car (upstairs is for dropping off, but he didn't have to get luggage so we agreed to meet upstairs to save him having to go downstairs...). So I had to leave the area anyway, since he wasn't outside and the guard was waving me on, and I just figured I'd check downstairs once as I circled around; basically, I would not have been outside waiting for him no matter if I went downstairs or not.

But you're right, a healthier exchange would have involved me explaining just that (which I did), and that I didn't enjoy getting chewed out (which I didn't).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes that explanation helps me understand, and would've been good to communicate to him also. Even if he knew, a polite respectful reminder can help.

It took me some practice, and I still don't have it perfect and don't do it all the time. But when I do, things sure are a lot smoother than I ever thought H and I could achieve.

Catperson, do you think this is at all relevant to how you feel about your H?


I can empathize; I've even struggled with something similar, and maybe it's even natural to do this. But when do you plan to stop investing in FogLand real estate?

What could you say to yourself the next time you feel sad about this?

Would it be honest to say, "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. I love the life that I'm creating with H."

Huh? Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking. If you're asking if I'm going to stop looking at this other man and wishing my husband had some of his qualities, like respect, concern, and lack of DJs over just about everyone in our lives...no, I probably won't.

This man has a smile for everyone he meets. I've never heard him say a mean thing about anyone. He's literally losing his brain cells due to serving in the Gulf War, and is permanently disabled from government service, but he still has not a mean thing to say about the government that did this and tried to cover it up, nor for anyone else. Maybe that's why it's so touching for me - my husband has so much to be grateful for, yet tears apart everything and everyone, while this man is losing his life, his family, and his memories, and remains grateful for the life he does have.

Like I said, that doesn't mean I'll ever think of him as anything more than a friend. I'm not built that way. It just means I find my H lacking, because the difference is so striking. As good a man as he is, his negativity to protect his insecurities and his willingness to so easily forget all the struggles I've been through as long as he gets his status quo do not endear him to me.

My H has sat next to me as I contemplated suicide, a knife in my hand, and rejected it. And a week later, acted as if it never happened, and never brought it up again. And never changed any of his own life. And never asked me if he needed to change. And never asked me if I'm happy.

He's a great provider, and he's a great protector. In his mind, that's all he's suppposed to do, I suppose.

Sorry if I sound touchy. We were supposed to take our dog in to the vets today to put him to sleep (he has cancer), but H couldn't make himself leave work in time (of course, it's all the other people at work's fault), so we're having to keep him comfortable for another night so that we can try again tomorrow afternoon. A little stressed out.

However, I did take y'all's advice and take a step to be more caring of his opinions/needs. He gripes that I don't give him warning when I'm ready to go to bed, that I'm being selfish by just saying good night and leaving the room, so I made a point of letting him know that I was going to get ready to go to bed and was he ready...yeah...30 minutes ago.

oh... I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. I know that is a difficult thing to have to do.

Try to go easy on yourself... and H... for a few days. Maybe H procrastinated because he wished to avoid the pain. I dunno, I'm not trying to justify anything, it's just a thought.

This may be coloring everything between you two. Maybe you should just sit tight a few days, taking gentle care of yourself and trying to at least not commit any LBs.

I hear you about the man who has a kind word for everyone, even when he's been through so much. Just tonight I encountered such a person, who confided to me that they have a terminal illness. They had just been participating in a meeting, with a lively, happy, enthusiastic attitude... they gave me some affirmations that I had been so desperate before... when they told me of their illness, suddenly my problems seemed so small, yet here they were affirming *me*... wow. I feel BLESSED to have a chance to meet them and get to know them.

Oh, I've been saying "they" out of habit to protect their anonymity, but in this case it is relevant that they are female. So this is just me appreciating them (her) as a human being, and I can believe you appreciate this man in a similar way.

I hope I haven't rambled too much. I'm thinking maybe you should not worry about the relationship stuff for a few days, but if you want to talk about that, I will try to help.

Cat, I'm sorry, I had no idea about your dog. I'm backing away. Please let me know if you want to revisit this at a better time.

(((cat)))

Cat, so sorry to hear about your dog. I'm sure this is hard on all of you. When we do it right, our pets become part of our family and it's really hard to let them go when it's time.

I know you've got so many other things on your mind right now. Dealing with this, too, seems to add insult to injury I'm sure.

I understand what you're saying about comparing other people to your H. I do that sometimes, too. It's not the same thing as wanting the other people, it's just that you want your H to possess some degree of the same qualities. When I seem to be getting overwhelmed with those thoughts, I step back and start thinking about the qualities my H does have that I'm thankful for. It at least stops me from focusing on the negative. From there I think about the things I'm doing to make myself better and hope that the improvements I make will inspire him to take a similar look at himself. So far that hasn't worked, but I'm hopeful that it will some day!