Thanks, everyone. And thanks for understanding about the 'other guy' who really isn't. You're right, there would never be anything there, it's just that when they're together, it just drives me crazy to sit there and watch G and then watch H, who never stops putting people down, etc. I know very well it is his insecurity driving this, horrible childhood and all. It just doesn't make it any easier to take 24/7. It just wears you down when you know that 90% of your time together will include him complaining or criticizing.

For example, here's a pattern. We're on our way to church. He keeps his hair relatively long (for a 54 year old) to cover a bad ear. He forgets to comb his hair at home, so he asks us 'girls' if one of us has "bothered to bring a brush this time" (old pattern). I tell him that there should be one in the door pocket, which I now keep there just for this reason. It's not there. So he makes one of his grimaces, for lack of a better word. Sometimes he flat out criticizes us 'girls' for not carrying a brush with us; sometimes he just makes that face (which I'm trying really hard not to react to, but it is hard not to).

I know I should have told him I don't like being talked to like that, but I'm a long way from being able to do that, in the moment. Sometimes I just say 'didn't you bring your comb?' and he drops the subject. Anyway, this morning, getting ready for work, I almost asked him what he is thinking when that situation happens. So, I actually am thinking about taking these steps to clarify our relationship, so that will go a long way to improving things. I say almost, because I could tell he was stressed out about the dog, so I tabled it for now.

btw, what I said last night, about telling him ahead of time I was going to bed, just like he said he wanted me to do? 30 minutes after I told him I wanted to go, and he's still not off his computer, I tell him I'm going, and his angry response: 'Why can't you just wait for me?' I said, I told you 30 minutes ago I was ready. He just said, Fine. Forget it.

So I feel like I'm not getting anywhere.

Cat, I'm sorry that you feel like that, today. There are frustrating days. Especially losing a beloved pet.

The quote below is about giving affection to a spouse, but I think it really applies to our efforts in growing ourselves and our marriages, too. Like they say in Alanon, just keep doing the next right thing.

catperson, I am so sorry to read about your dog. It is so heart-breaking to lose a pet. I can understand why you are taking a step back from working on boundaries right now.

However, I hope that you can get back to it as soon as possible. I'm finding that consistency is key. When I start letting a boundary down, my husband's old patterns return very quickly.

Something you wrote earlier struck a nerve with me. That your husband keeps boxes on the bed. Personally, my mind is such that I would not be able to be intimate with boxes on a bed. I warned my husband before we married that even boxes of clutter under the bed can distract me. I have to know that there are only clean, smooth sheets under there, or I can't sleep.

I'm wondering if you could try creating sacred areas to start reducing your husband's clutter. His clutter definitely sounds like a huge AB on his part. If you could convince him that you would be more in the mood, more enthusiastic, with a clean bed... maybe you could eventually carve out an area that is protected from clutter?

Eventually expanding it to include the area around the bed. Then consider a paint project which would require the bedroom being cleared out. Making way for you to make the entire bedroom a sacred, uncluttered area? I'm just thinking out loud.

I have clutter issues too, so I do this sacred area thing myself. The bathroom is a common area, so I do my utmost to keep it free of clutter. The bedroom is shared by two, so I do my utmost to keep it orderly. My two areas of shame are the basement and my son's room. (And his room isn't really that bad.) I am a reformed 'clutterbug' -- so I can understand your husband to a degree (though he is way beyond even my worst time frames sad to say.)

I'm imagining you do have books on clutter-busting?

I must have written it wrong, his boxes are along the wall, on his side of the bed, not on the bed. But it's still an issue.

Goes back to his avoidance issue. He only deals with 'positive' stuff, stuff that makes him feel good. He has to be in the mood to deal with anything. Instead of whittling away at something, he won't tackle it unless he can finish the whole thing. For instance, he won't clean the garage unless he has the 10-20 hours to clean out the whole thing, and if we start, he won't stop until we're done, even if it means working until 6am the next morning. And if I say I want to stop, he goes ballistic and starts acting like I'm doing him wrong. So of course, his issues get bigger and bigger over the years, as the piles get bigger and bigger.

And he is extremely sensitive about me touching anything of his. For instance, he has 3 counters in the kitchen that he keeps mail and boxes and stuff on. If I move any of it, he blows a gasket. And I hear for months and months how he knew just where everything was and now that I moved it (his other favorite phrase: I stack things everywhere), he can't pay this bill or take back that product.

Basically I have to set up those all important boundaries. I didn't even know what that was until I found MB, so I'm still rolling it around in my head, how to make that work with us. Because he's so hypersensitve. It all comes back to my cringing and caving under his words and looks. I know we'd both be happier if I could just make it right on my side, I'm just so conditioned to cave - it's hard to become what you've never been.

Cat, I can really relate. I felt like my world was caving in, when I first started to follow the part of POJA that says not to do things that you aren't enthusiastic about. The "change back" behavior was SO SCARY from my perspective, and I thought that it was our relationship spiraling out of control, instead of just suffering temporary growing pains.

My H still just the other night started attacking me (verbally) because he asked me to cut tomatoes for the salad, and I declined. He said I refused, after all he's done for me while I was sick the last two weeks. He kept with that kind of comments, while lowering his voice and using a sarcastic tone. His perspective to own. I went for a drive, and came back after 20 minutes, because that's how long Al Turtle says at a minimum it takes to recover from the chemicals released. Let me know if you haven't seen that article and would like me to link it.

Then we were fine. I wasn't in touch with my H&O, but that was okay, I knew it'd come back to me, and I shared it the next day, that I get scared when I see him angry like that. I felt really good about respecting my boundaries.

Have you read on ravengirl's thread about boundary enforcements? I thought they were awesome, and will keep that in mind when we're just low-key annoyed instead of flaming angry.

Rereading my post, H may have been just annoyed, and maybe I could have just stayed and used in the room enforcements. I'll ask him. Do you and your H get annoyed or angry?

Please do provide the link, thanks.

I rarely get angry, rarely even speak, actually, except to get things done. MrCat gets bitter angry, a lot. He's just mad at the world. At least that's the way he appears to us. When I do ask him, he replies that he wasn't angry, that I'm just imagining. But he displays it in grimaces, snarls, rolling the eyes, jerking away if I touch him, and lots and lots of sighs.

He's so disappointed that he hasn't gotten where he wants to be in life, I guess, that everything just isn't worth enjoying. Tons of baggage, but he won't discuss it. So I've been trying to find ways to bring up little pieces of it, in a non-threatening way, so he can at least discuss some of it and maybe feel better.

Cat, how is your IC going? I may have missed your recent updates, but I've been hoping to hear that things are going well and that you're getting what you need out of it.

As for living with Mr.Cat and his dissatisfaction with his life, I am amazed that you're here. After so much time with his negativity, I'd think you wouldn't even be looking for help with your M. I really admire you for what you're doing and how far you've come.

I've had one meeting, and I have another next Tuesday. We haven't really gotten to a point of doing anything yet. D17 went yesterday, and she wants her next meeting to be a joint meeting with her and me, so I'll actually be in two meetings next week.

As for being here, I think it's just my doggedness. All my life, I've felt like an outsider (something my C pointed out), like if I wanted anything I just had to do it myself, no one else was going to do it. I think that's the only thing that's kept me even alive, as I've wanted to give up so many times.

You know, I make it sound like I'm living with Manson or something, but it's not like that all the time. Only with conflict. We're a fairly normal household when we're just going day by day, but it's like a huge weight always on my shoulders that I'm always somewhat aware of.

I think my best first step is just to start trying to be honest. When I think he's being an a$$, I'm going to say so. When I don't want to do what he wants to do, I'm going to say so. When I disagree with how he does something, I'll say so. Things I've learned not to do, to avoid conflict. Life's too short.

And thanks for the kind words.

btw, y'all, our dog started eating again yesterday. although he did throw up afterwards. I guess the swelling in his mouth went down, so I'm going to have to take him in to see if that was just temporary and he can stick around awhile longer. Thanks to everyone for the kind words on that, as well. I appreciate it.

We understand that home life isn't always the crap we post about. I know I've posted so much about life with my H, but most of the time things are pretty normal. (That will likely change when I get to the point that I can talk to him about what I know, but that's for another post...)

For me, at least there's that. If we had to live in constant turmoil we just couldn't do it. I'm glad you're here, Cat, because you offer so much to others. I don't feel qualified to help others right now or even able to step outside my own issues at times.

I hope the weight will gradually lift off of your shoulders and I believe that you're doing the things it will take to make that happen. Knowing what you need to do is a start and you're at the point where you need to gain courage to do those things. You do have the right to be honest with your H and you also have the responsibility to be honest. He probably won't like it much at first, but y'all will figure it out.

I'm glad there's some hope in your dog's situation.

And I know your H can't be all bad. You and he must be doing something right, to have produced your wonderful D!

Yes, I think your next step is to start practicing H&O. Just a word of caution - I know you've gotten used to walking on eggshells, but you don't want to go too far the other way and start LBing. Remember that H&O is not a license to DJ.


Telling him you think he's being an a$$ is a DJ. A better way would be to say "When you do such-and-such I feel embarrassed..." or whatever *you* *feel*. Not what you *think* of *his* behavior.

Telling him when you don't want to do something is good, that's POJA.

<ETA: This originally said "... is god, that's POJA." Oops!>

Telling him you disagree with how he does something, wouldn't that be a DJ too? As in, you are putting yourself forward as the judge of his behavior. It would be better to share with him how his behavior affects you, but he is still a separate person who could disagree with your judgement and still choose differently than you.

I agree that you are having a hard time speaking up due to learning to avoid conflict. And so I am not trying to scold you for standing up for yourself. You are doing good. Just make sure to make your statements about yourself, what you feel, want, and need, not about judging him.

You're right, and I didn't actually mean I would talk like that, I was just giving examples of issues. It will be really hard for me to say anything, let along say it rudely! I'm going to practice some "I" statements ahead of time, so I'll have some ready.

{{{ cat }}}

I know, honey. That's why I hesitated to point the DJ out to you... I certainly don't want to squash your new-found ability to stand up for yourself! I hope you know I agree with all the "you go, girl!" posts.

Yes, I find I really do better when I have statements ready ahead of time.

You go, girl!

Cat, here's the article about taking 20 minutes of time out at least to calm your chemicals.

But rereading this article with you in mind, it seems to me like your H should be the one to take the lead in getting the marriage counseling and doing most of the work to change the marriage dynamics. Because he's the Clinger and you the Avoider. He can do the hard work to transform the environment into a safe one, and then you would naturally open up and be yourself again.

That makes a lot more sense then the scared person to keep calming herself down and trying again, and finding the mad person still mad, stalling the process indefinitely in 20 minute increments.

I don't know, cat. We here can all see the natural leader in you. But is it reasonable to think that your H would hand you the leadership role without a daily battle? Would your H consider working one-on-one with an expert like the Harleys or Al Turtle?

http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2007/2/6/2715346.html

Or, cat, maybe you'll surprise the heck out of yourself and take that leadership role head-on, no looking back. Girl, if anyone could do it, you can <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, eo. I'm printing it out. MrCat seems to see - or at least acknowledges - no problems in himself. Any comment I make about his actions or choices result in him blindly defending himself and turning everything around to be my fault. Maybe with the knowledge I've gained here, I can once again try to reframe these discussions so that he sees I'm only trying to make the M better, not attack him. As always, it all keeps rolling back to me not being able to talk. I'm hoping C will give me some strength in recognizing my own worth. I hear people like you telling me I have strength or wisdom or knowledge, but it's like I'm looking at it from the other side of a wall, not really 'feeling' it. I can't own it, probably for FOO issues. Lots of work to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you can frame things as a help for you and daughter rather than an attack on him. Kind of like "dh, I realize that I'm a real chicken when it comes to telling people how I feel because I'm afraid they'll say something mean to me back. I think this is because of how I'm was raised. I'd like to model better behaviour to dd. Could you help me practise by letting me say a few opinions to you?"

Might not work, but he seems more receptive to the protector role, at least in his head.

Could you apply the format that aeri used? It seems to me that she has a similar problem, and the last time she posted, she had successfully negotiated.

I just wanted to let everyone know who has posted to me that I'm sorry I haven't responded much this week. I've been so screwed up with the death of our dog (we put him to sleep this morning at the vet's) that I haven't really wanted to think about myself. I hope that makes sense. I feel good helping everyone else, but every time I try to slow down and look at myself I start to panic. So I've been avoiding any of that. And I can't stop crying all day.

And I didn't really even like the dog all that much (I'm a cat person, in case you didn't know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />). I'm truly shocked how much his death has affected me. Maybe it's just a signal for deeper issues... who knows.

I'll be back in touch with 'me' problems later when I can deal with them. But anyway, thanks to everyone who has tried to help. More on all that later. You all are a godsend.

cat, I'm so sorry to hear about your dog. Take care of yourself, hon. ((((Cat))))

{{{{{{{ catperson }}}}}}}

I am so sorry.

And please, don't worry for a second about us expecting you to reply. We all understand, I'm sure.

And I *totally* understand about it being easier to reply to others, than to examine and post about oneself.

Cat, I'm so sorry about your dog. I know it's hard to lose a pet - even if it's not your favorite one. There is time to work on the reasons you're hear when you're ready. We understand and you don't owe any explanations.