This is going to sound really silly to you people, but I had a small moment of setting boundaries last night that I wanted to report. My mom moved to town last spring into a retirement community. She'd been out of town since the week I graduated high school - the day after I graduated, she told me she had sold the house and was moving away; I could move with her and go to college up there, or stay here and get a full-time job (I chose to stay because my abusive fiance said he wouldn't wait around for me - another story). Anyway, this is the first time I'd been able to see her on a regular basis, even though it's a 45-minute drive just to get across Houston, each way. So every visit is at least 2 hours long. So we've been going to see her about every 2 weeks.

Background: I've done away with nearly everything in my life that has to do with me, because H would question everything I do that doesn't involve him. If I say I'm meeting a friend for dinner, he'd say "well what are we supposed to do for dinner?" If I said I need to go to Target tonight, he'd say "why couldn't you go at lunch?" So over the years, I just quit putting myself in the position of having to defend myself. Because I didn't understand boundaries.

So yesterday, we just stayed home all day and watched tv and worked on our computers. I said I was going to go see my mom (he was working on a deadline and D17 was sick). I hung around, watched tv and worked, took a shower, dried and straightenend my hair, and then around 4:30, I got up and said I was going. Of course, the first thing out of his mouth was "why couldn't you have gone earlier?" when if I had gone earlier, he would have said "why do you have to go now?"

So, knowing what was coming, and knowing I have to start on boundaries, I just said "because I've been busy all day and now I have time to go." And guess what? Nothing happened!

I know, I know, really silly. I'm just sad it took me 30 years to realize I have the power over my own decisions. And the power not to be affected by his manipulation. Well, that's not entirely true; I still get a knot in my gut every time he says something even as tame as that; father figure and all. But I know that I have to start doing it so that it stops hurting so much.

Anyway, at least I know it and own it and can see myself moving past it.

Yay cat!!!

Good to see you establishing that boundary. Yes, the more you do it, the easier it will get and the less it will hurt.

I hope D17 feels better soon.

Cat, it cheers me up so much to see you stepping out in faith and trying these new things. Nothing happened, and I'd call that Good to Know, too!

When I started stepping out in faith, and trying these new things, and found that I liked it better than the hurtful ways I was replacing, I felt really disappointed and angry that I hadn't stuck with it through the "change back" behavior years ago. I had to take some time to grieve all those missed opportunities that I scared myself away from taking.

Finally, I learned about making amends, and I think continuing to try these things is an effective way to make amends to myself and my family for not getting the support and tools I needed to get and stay brave sooner.

What do you think about this?

The knot in your gut, when you try these things, is that your "change back" instinct?

That is so encouraging that you see yourself moving past it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((Cat)))

Honestly, the one thing that I use as my crutch for 'making' myself do this hard stuff is that I have to make up to my D17 for not doing it sooner, not giving her a more stable life. I really thank God every day she's turned out as normal and happy as she has, given his negativity. Lots of personal talks with me, explaining how his FOO and all contributed to it. I think that's why she's contemplating going into psychology as a career.

No, really, it's just my fear, knowing he's going to question my integrity or intelligence or common sense or whatever. It's knowing someone I'm supposed to trust (thanks myschae) is going to call me on my actions - actions that have no business being called on, since I'm the Giver 90% of the time.

All my life, my beliefs and actions have been questioned. Even D17 feels safe questioning them, because I have no boundaries. Have you guys seen 27 Dresses, the new movie? I was practically in tears watching it, because I so identify with the main character, who lived her whole life giving up herself for everyone else's sake. It really upset me. The guy in the show has her practice saying no, because she never learned how.

Of course, last night wasn't a total success, because I literally spent the whole time there and back worrying if I was going to be 'punished' for leaving, cutting short my visit out of that fear, and not running an errand for D17 out of fear of being gone too long. I don't mean verbally or physically punished; I mean that whenever I do do something like that, I usually come back to find some catastrophe or other has happened, which 'never would have happened' if I had just stayed home. So I didn't truly enjoy it as I was scared to come home. But again, nothing happened! So progress.

Cat, I find this really interesting. Have you all discussed this, how the DJ, like if last night your H questioned your integrity or illigence, or common sense, is just a front for our insecurity in our ability to negotiate for what we need?

Is it okay with you if he asked if it was a failing on your part and you to clarified that it was not? What if he came to an assumption, would you be willing to clarify in that case why what you're doing makes sense to you.

In Alanon, they have a saying, Don't justify, argue or defend, or explain. The acronym for that is JADE. Would you be willing to clarify instead?

If he'd said no to going to visit your mom last night, would you have been willing to negotiate that? Or would you have thought that you've done your percentage of the giving already, so you're not willing to negotiate.

The last paragraph, does taht relate to what mys spoke about trust? Do you trust your DD17 and H to be able to care for themselves for an evening while you visit your mom? Would the visual of putting them in God's care (Let Go and Let God) help?

ears, I don't know why, but I just can't figure out what you're asking. Are you saying I'm DJing by saying I expect him to question me going? Because he does question me, every time I go anywhere. Not so much question why I'm going, as much as why can't I do it to have less impact on him. But no, we don't discuss it, unless he comes out and says why are you going or why can't you blah blah blah? If he does, I answer him, but he phrases it so that I feel I have to defend my action ("Why couldn't you have gone earlier?")

I've been willing to negotiate, it's more that I shouldn't have to. Basically, he was working on a PowerPoint project for work that he wanted me there for, on 'standby', in case he needs me to spell a word for him or check something or give my opinion. He always has something he is working on, that he needs me right next to him for. Here's a little example from yesterday. I'm on my side of the bed, D17's in the middle, we're watching tv, working on our own laptops. He says "come here and look at this." I get up, walk around, stand by his side, and wait to see what he wants me to look at. I stand there, he's flipping from screen to screen. I keep standing there. After at least 5 minutes, I start to walk away, to go back to my job, and say "let me know when you're ready for me to look at it." He angrily says 'Wait a minute! Can't you just wait?!" So I say, "I've been standing here for 5 minutes. If you're not ready for me to look at it, I'll come back." He replies, "Just look at this, dammit!" So, properly chastened, I stay and wait til he gets the page up.

In so doing, I've just been put in the position of defending my action (NOT continuing to stand there and wait for him). My stomach is in knots yet again. This is a typical, daily interaction with us.

CP,

Can I throw something your way?

Your DH says "Why couldn't you have gone earlier?" when you're leaving to go somewhere...

Listen and repeat would look like this: "I hear you wish I would have gone earlier." Simple acknowledgement...changing it from a why question into what you really need to hear...not you doing...his preference...his stuff.

Any knots from that?

About the laptop/ppp incident...

You assumed he was ready to show you what he wanted your opinion on...now you know to ask before you get up, "Are you ready for me to come over there?"

He may say yes and still be paging through...you won't know. You will know when you get there. Do you want to really connect with your DH? At the point you were ready to go back and continue your own work, you might have knelt down, looked him in the eye, caressing hand on his face, with you making eye contact..."I think you're frustrated right now." Calm, respectful, sharing your impression. In this together...just like him wanting you to see something with your eyes...eyes he trusts and respects.

When he curses, "I don't like the swearing, DH. I know you'll find what you're looking for and that I'll come over there when you do...or you can bring it over to me, if you wish."

Teammates...no stomach knots...you're assured that your actions align to your code. Do you fear his anger? Do you fear his frustration, upset...adding to it, controlling it...being the cause, contributor, cure of it?

LA

Well, if I said that, he'd look at me like I'm nuts, and say 'what the H are you talking about?' LOL So, yes, I would get knots because it would frustrate him and he would try to regain control by being even ruder.

I'll see if I can find an opportunity to try it, though.

The background I'm not giving, I guess, is that he does it on purpose. Makes us wait. It's a control thing, I guess, but he does it with everything. If it's time to go somewhere, he'll keep watching tv while we stand there. If it's time for dinner, I say so, we'll be sitting at the table for a good 10-15 minutes before he will get up and come; sometimes we're done with dinner by the time he gets up. And yes, I have learned to tell him it's ready long before it really is; he still waits until we are sitting before he will move. If we're at my mom's and we need to go, I'll make our goodbyes, say we have to go, and he will sit there intentionally, playing with the cat or watching tv, ignoring the fact that we're by now standing with keys in hand. I could go on, but you get the idea. I've asked him why he does it and he denies doing it; I show examples, he says I'm imagining. So him not having the page ready was deliberate, at least subconsciously. Even if he's at the page, he will still hold on to the computer and look at it, while I stand waiting. This happens almost daily, in one form or another.

Even thinking of saying that gives me knots, LOL. And yes, I fear his anger, frustration, upset, everything. I basically fear everything. Because I have no self-worth.

Thanks for asking for clarification. No, I hadn't thought you were DJing for thinking he'd question you. I thought that you were kind of predicting what you thought would be likely to happen. That makes a new situation less scary.

The DJ I was asking about was the one where he comes out and questions your integrity, intelligence or common sense. When he does that, or even before, would you be willing to discuss the idea of a DJ, and explain that this is an effort to gain at the other's expense? Would you be willing to introduce an alternative, which is negotiating a solution that works for both people?


Cat, aren't you the one who gives us the needed reminder that we teach people how to treat us? What would be a way to handle an interaction like this that would leave you feeling good about yourself? Are you willing to discuss this?

Edited to add, I just saw how LA describes a different way to handle that interaction. Cat, would that feel more honest than to stand there chastised. The chastened stance feels dishonest to me in that I see you as someone who is no longer willing to participate in that dance. Someone who is ready to dance a new dance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cat, your husband sounds so much like my Dad. He was loud, obnoxious, belligerent, and deep down very hurt. I spent most of my childhood avoiding him, or trying to be invisible when he was around. He made me feel like I had to beg for every breath I took.

Fast forward to now...when someone acts meanly toward me, I feel like I have to give a justification for every thought and feeling I have. In hind-sight I realize it's not true, but it has taken practice to learn how not to make the knee-jerk reaction to an obnoxious comment.

When your husband dawdles and you're ready to leave, if you're driving make the annnouncement that you are leaving now and then leave. Guaranteed that he will elevate his rear off the couch.

If he says "Come and look at this dammit!" learn to say "I don't do anything for people that yell at me. If you ask nicely, I'll come look".

If he asks "Why didn't you go earlier" ask him "Why didn't you mow the lawn already". He'll likely say "Because I didn't feel like it". Then answer "Ditto, same for me". Then leave with a smile and a kiss on the cheek for him.

Webfootgirl and LA, thanks, I think it helps when someone gives me actual statements to make. I will think on them and figure out which will work best for me.

I think that might be doable. Just now, we're sitting on the bed with him trying to reconnect to our DVR service. We have a wire that's been running across the floor for 4 1/2 years because he hasn't found another way to connect it, and I keep tripping over it. So it disconnected, and he said 'you must have tripped over it and disconnected it.' So I said, 'Or you did.' I have to start catching these statements, because I think I've heard them so long I don't even notice he's doing it to me any more.

ETA, so, yeah, just for saying that (or you did), he spent the next hour huffing and puffing (sighing loudly) all over the house as he tried to fix the phone cord, muttering about how he should have just stayed at work, no one wants him here, all he does is work, work, work when he gets home (at which point I came in the room and said 'you know, I come home from work and work every single night.' So he finished the problem, got in bed and promptly fell asleep his ultimate symbol of being oppressed by me. Any time I stand up to him, he sits down and goes to sleep. I guess so I can't argue any more.

I'm sorry it seems like I'm just unloading here. I'm really trying to chronicle stuff so I can go back and see how much I'm DJing and not being honest and all that. And to see if anyone has any other insight than what I'm getting from it.

I wonder whether you might have a talk with him about how many times he says critical or belittling things. Probably he doesn't even realize that he's doing it, its just the way he sees it. He is right and reasonable, and if the rest of the world would just fall in line, then everything would be hunky-dory.

So you could have that convo, and then when he says something negative you go "that's one." Or if that's too scary, you could just write the incidents down and at the end of the day hand him the paper.

Something that's worked for me with my dh is to say "would you like to re-phrase that?"

However, if your dh is deeply entrenched in the "I'm the king and master of my castle, my every wish must be catered to, and my beliefs form the universe", this is another battle altogether.

Thanks for the suggestion, but that's my whole problem in a nutshell. He refuses to entertain the idea that he does anything wrong. He is so severely insecure and determined to prove his worth that he will not allow anyone to entertain the thought that he is wrong about anything. Look at how freaked out he got just by my saying "or you did" and just barely suggesting that he may have been the one to knock a freakin' cord loose. An hour later, and he's still not speaking.

I know you're all right. I have to have the conversations. But I was never strong to begin with and after all these years, it's practically as though I was a battered wife. I get sick in my stomach just thinking about saying anything. Because I know from experience that any time I've said anything in the past, he stops listening and starts defending himself and getting angry. That's why I'm here, to try to figure out how to give myself courage.

Just keep getting back up and trying again. You were feeling great this morning, why are you feeling dejected now? Here's what I thought: the change-back behavior is working. But no, cat! I'm choosing not to buy into that belief! I'm going to ask you, instead, why you felt better this mroning, and crappy now.

At Alanon, they suggest when someone is suffering from their illness, to ask yourself, what would I be doing now if this person wasn't acting this way? Have I ever asked you about your self-care?

For me, it makes me feel better to share my filter, like "wow, when you say that, I hear that I'm not allowed to have a different opinion. Even though I already know that it's totally valid for us to have two different opinions. I'm working on that." I'm not saying that as advice, just hoping to get you thinking about what you'd like to say.

Good stuff, thanks. I felt better in the morning because, as is typical in abusive relationships, my mood matches my H's mood out of self-preservation; if he's feeling good and generous and not threatening, I'm feeling good. If he's angry, I retreat into my shell for protection. It's really that simple, at least for me.

I know how unhealthy that is. But when you start with no self-esteem, and live a life where every person in it continues the debasing behavior, it's hard to find the courage to step outside that protective behavior you create.

That's a good thing to hang onto, actually. I think about it occasionally (and it makes me cry), who I would be if I were living alone. It's one of the things I allow myself to fantasize about, if I were to leave him next year. I picture myself alone, finally, with no one to care about except myself. It sounds like heaven. As for self-care, he doesn't begrudge me self-care, as long as it doesn't affect the time that he would be spending with me. Does that make sense? Say he gets home from work at 7pm every day. He really couldn't care less what I do until 7; but anything I try to plan for after that, I get that 'why can't you do that at lunch?' or 'why do you have to do that now?' or 'why do you need to go to the store?', etc. And I know that's not a reason NOT to go, but my cocoon reflex just tells me to not plan anything so I don't have to hear it and feel like my integrity et al. are being questioned and I'm having to defend myself. I know this isn't healthy or normal, and I know I have to do the things to start changing the dynamics. For instance, I'm meeting an old friend after work Thursday, and it will be a good chance to practice this.

I like that one, I may use it.

FWIW, I want to let you know that after checking the thread this morning before I left, I felt emboldended and went in and actually said something! He was already out of bed, and I was going to do one of those drive-bys, so I started to turn around and leave, but I went ahead and went into the bathroom. It went something like this: "I need to say something. I know that last night you were horny and you were looking for having a nice night and then you had to work on the cord, so it upset you. But I didn't do anything wrong, and it hurt my feelings that it was all being blamed on me."

Something like that. Not the right way to say it, I know, but I was shakin' in my boots to say even that. He gave me 'that look' of disgust that he has, but all he said was 'Ok.'

So...baby steps. Thanks to all of you for getting me to this point.

Great drive-by, cat! I'm really proud of you for the H&O even though you were shaking in your boots. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You and ears are giving such great advice to each other, I have nothing to add except cheers right now. I'm not ignoring ya!

Am I mistaken, or are you both giving each other the same advice? "Do what you'd be doing if this other person weren't in your life." Neato.

Sometimes I wish we could all just trade lives for awhile. We could fix each other's life up in no time!

LOL, yeah, kind of like it's fun to clean someone else's house, yes?

H has called me 3 or 4 times this morning (for help with his work) and is talking really strangely, I think he's being...careful. I think I really shook him up. The first call, he said "After we had that talk this morning (yeah, right, all he said was 'ok', LOL), it went from bad to worse. My car broke down."

But we've been very 'nice' to each other each time he's called. So I'm either in for more nice tonight, or him spending all day creating a defense to throw in my face, like he usually does. It will be interesting. He knows I've been reading about marriages and stuff, and I know he's seen the MB header on the computer from time to time, so I think he's semi-aware that I'm trying to change things.

Wow, Cat. You know, once you start identifying these patterns, you'll see how they don't fit you anymore, and keep trying things that do. It's a really amazing process, and I'm thankful that you choose to share it with us.

When you get time, if you search on Al Turtle's site, there is a great article on MasterTalk. I'm glad your post reminded me of it. It explains how we can use our language to help us reshape our thinking from thinking there's a boss and a subordinate, to living as equal partners.

It's very interesting to me how it's affected my parenting, and it's a little scary having kids who are equal partners, so maybe I wasn't supposed to talk with them this way, too LOL. But it's really subtle yet huge how it changes the dynamics.

Thanks, ears, I'll look that up today.

Here's my update. MrCat called me that next day and said, "So....let's talk about that little talk we had this morning. What made you think I was horny?" I said, "Because you were all happy and smiling and acting goofy all over the kitchen, and you're always that way when you are." So he said, "Well, I was just glad to be home early and having dinner with you guys, and you were hanging out in the kitchen, so so was I." I said ok. Then he changed the subject. LOL, all he got out of it was that I assumed he was horny. Oh well, at least we didn't fight after that.

Oh, and I also went to get a pedicure that day after going to the doctor because D17 needed her eyebrows waxed - only the second pedicure I've ever had - and when he called on his way home I actually told him where I was, where before I never told him if I was doing anything for myself, for fear of getting his 'why are you doing that?' questioning. And I told him I had to go back to the store after that to pick up my medicine (trying to fight off pneumonia) and we wouldn't be home til later. When we got home, he was cooking dinner!

My further updates. He got home early yesterday, too, for some reason (usually not home until 7 or 8), so I went ahead and made dinner, but he was sitting on the couch, and we made ready to take D17 to church, and he was surprised we were leaving. He never remembers any appointments or scheduled events. So I reminded him it was Wednesday, she had church, and he started with the pouty face and saying 'why does she want to go to that? are you sure she doesn't want to stay home?', but instead of doing what I've always done before - ask him if he wants us to stay at home (to please him and keep him from pouting) - I just said, "Do you want to go?" He was a little irritated, but he just said no. So I said ok, bye, and we left. Of course, when we got home at 9, he was asleep in bed, which is his way of showing displeasure, but oh well. I just went to bed, too, and got 8 hours sleep for once.

And this morning I said, "I'm having dinner tonight after work with B." All he said was, "Is that your friend from XYZ (my old job)?" I said "Yeah. I need to give her the Tupperware she ordered from me a year ago and haven't given her because we haven't seen each other in a year." Then I said, "And there's a meeting at school about colleges at 7." He didn't say anything, so I kissed him goodbye and left.

So, butterflies aside, I did pretty well. I almost told him I also had an appointment with the C at 4, but I figured piling 3 things on him at once, especially a C session where he has to know I'm talking about him, would be a little much for our little dynamics.

So, baby steps, so far so good.

How did you feel when you realized that the "consequences" of your H&O weren't as bad as you anticipated? Sounds like you did very well with the whole thing, Cat. The part I especially like is that when he was showing his displeasure by being asleep when you got home it didn't bother you at all. You didn't seem to worry about how he'd be the next morning. These are big steps for you personally. Maybe smaller steps in the grand scheme, but you're gaining confidence with every effort you make. His behavior is also starting to change - maybe smaller changes so far, but he is defnitely picking up on your new approach.

Good for you, Cat! You're worthy of a good and happy life and you're taking the steps to get you there. I know big positive changes are around the corner for you.