Hey cp

Hope you don't mind if I jump in here a sec.



I hope this doesn't come across as argumentative. But its my impression that you don't really want to kill yourself. Suicide is a selfish act. People who attempt or follow through are so caught up in themselves, their misery, they can't see or think about how it will affect those that love and need them. You are SO not selfish. You're constantly putting your daughter and H above yourself.

I think its like what eo said. You want to vanish. You want to crawl in a hole or get deserted on an uninhabited island. Those are two examples of ways I used to wish I could vanish. I used to have those thoughts when I was in the car, too. I didn't really want to die. I felt trapped and death seemed like the only acceptable escape hatch. It took me awhile to realize the reason that seemed like the only way, was because what I wanted to escape was myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I hope you will discuss it honestly with your IC, so she can help you with it. I may be filtering all of this, but I remember that my guilt was HUGE because of those thoughts, which increased my trapped feelings. I hemmed myself in.

I don't know if this makes sense. But if it does, then maybe its worth some thought?

(((((cp)))))

Tama

Always welcome, Tama! You're absolutely right, I don't really want to and don't actively think about it, I just want some peace. Like I told IC, I'm just so dreadfully tired. Tired of always being on guard and sad and 'on' for everyone else. I just want a break.

But MrCat wants nothing else except to spend every free minute with me and D17. I changed jobs 2 years ago, and took a few days off before starting the new job, and reserved 2 nights at our local time share, so I could just go and be by myself for once. I spend one night there alone - in utter heaven - and guess who shows up, to 'keep me company'? Even after I told them I wanted time off.

Honestly, I'm kind of worried if I tell her the extent of it, she may contact someone, KWIM? Like try to get me to go to a hospital or something. And I don't want that, for many reasons, though I suspect it might be the only wakeup call my H would hear.

I was scared going home last night, that he would be upset when I got home from IC, because his insecurity makes him worry that I'm fixing myself and won't want him any more, but he usually reacts to that by getting mad at me. This time, he was actually in a good mood. So maybe he's learning, too.

Honestly he's a great person, but his insecurity makes him want to protect himself against any criticism. I just need to figure out how to talk to him without pushing that button. As always, that's my problem.

I wonder if his insecurity is behind his need to be with you every waking moment? It sounds pretty serious, if he showed up on your alone-time time at the time-share even after you said you needed the alone time.

Is he still going to see the IC also?

Jayne, I'd want to be around cat all the time, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Especially if she was going to a time-share! Maybe he just doesn't use his empathy to understand how serious her need to be alone is?

Tama, are you here? Doesn't your H behave like that, too? Mistakenly dismissing what you ask for? How have you solved this?

cp


I can relate to that fear. But since she's trained to see and understand these things and I'm not, and I get that you're not really a danger to yourself, I think she'll get it too. Ya know?

I think if you explain the way you did here:



Maybe she can help you find ways to get the break you need so badly. I agree with you, you HAVE to get that break, but not just one. I think it would benefit you to have a set weekly break. But cart/horse.....first things first. Explain this to your conuselor. You know, you don't have to share every "dark" thought with her, in order for her to understand how hemmed in you feel and help you get the breaks you need. I think journaling those dark thoughts would be good, to get them out so you can examine them and find perspective.

I see hope for you. Another filer, but IMO its HUGE that you're able to open up here about those thoughts, which is another indicator that its not about suicide for you - IMO. I see that willingness as your inner desire to work through and find relief from, those thoughts. This is a good thing!

You're making great progress, cp. I'm so happy and proud for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Tama

Cat, I see great steps forward for you in these latest posts. To allow anyone to see your feelings as it happened in IC was big. You said you usually want to be invisible and it's clear that you're taking advantage of your time with IC and that's very good. Allowing her to see you cry was great, IMO. You open up to us here, but we can't see you. Even that has been a great release for you, though, it seems.

The example you gave of D17 asking how your day had been really struck me. I have a tendancy to think the worst possible motivation or option, too, and this one is hard to stop, but you've got to do that to move forward. There are tons of reasons D17 could have asked you how your day was and even if it was because she's been worried about you that's actually a good thing, too. It's a chance to talk more to her about what's going on and make sure she sees that you're being proactive and that she doesn't have to take on the responsibility of taking care of you. It's easy to make the connection between what happened in your teen years to what's going on now, but you can stop that before it starts if that is in fact what's in D17's mind.

Also, D17 can be worried about you and it be okay. If so, you've taught her to care about the people in her life. It's an opportunity to teach her how to care for people without having to be responsible for them.

The way you've made subtle changes in how you behave in situations where you'd normally have given in is working very well it sounds like. Before long you'll be able to make bigger changes because your gaining lots of confidence as time goes on.

My H was distant and detached last Saturday for most of the day. In the past I would have prodded and asked all day long what was wrong and what I'd done wrong. I didn't ask a thing all day about why he was silent and moody. I did my stuff and acted like I didn't notice his mood at all. If he didn't answer me, I just kept going. Finally he snapped out of it. My situation is way different than yours, but I did find that when I made a conscious choice to ignore his bad mood, my mood didn't get dragged down with his. I was very uncomfortable with the general atmosphere around the house that day, but I sucked it up because I'd had enough of taking responsibility for his feelings. You're getting there, too, though you're working toward a different goal than I am.

I'm here, eo **wave**




Though I no longer think of it as dismissive, there are times when I ask R for something and it doesn't happen.

Its a work in progress. Part of it is my communication. What I've started doing is asking R "I asked for X and it hasn't happened. did you understand what I asked for?" Many times his response lets me know I wasn't clear enough in my request and he misunderstood exactly what I wanted.

I've realized that sometimes even when I'm clear in how I state something, it has a different meaning for him than it does for me.

Like in the example cp gave with telling her H she needed alone time. I could very easily imagine R showing up with the girls if I'd told them I wanted to get away for a couple days. I think he would have interpreted that I meant I wanted to get away from the daily grind, never imagining I might need a break from them. I think he would have considered the first day my "alone time" and would've thought showing up with the girls as a surprise for me. I think he would have thought of it as adding TO my "vacation", not intruding on my alone time.

But I think if I explained I needed time completely alone, without even him or the girls there, as long as I didn't make it sound like it was because of something I was upset or angry with him or the girls about, he would give me the space I need.

R thinks in black and white. I'm learning I have to be almost simplistic in how I explain things, not because he's not intelligent enough to understand, but because it doesn't mean the same thing to him. The simplest explanations are the easiest to accomplish mutual meaning and understanding.

I wonder if you might need to check your communication with your H, too, cp? Maybe you're H is not understanding your meaning, either.

Tama

I hear ya! Me too!

Another thought that crossed my mind... if it was Mr.Cat who was posting here instead of cat, and Mr.Cat told us his wife was going to a time-share for some "alone-time", wouldn't we encourage him to "surprise her" by showing up? Meaning, to make sure she wasn't meeting an OP? Could this have been going through Mr.Cat's mind?

*We* know that she wasn't... which just goes to show, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I thought that, at the time. In fact, I enouraged that very thing to a poster yesterday whose wife is going on a kayak trip for a week with a bunch of single men.

I'd never gone out on my own before, not in 30 years of marriage. So it probably freaked him out. Or it may just have been him scared of me showing any independence.

Just want to say, thanks, y'all, for helping me. It means a lot.

Catperson, I didn't get the time to read through all of the posts on this thread, but I read enough to get a good impression of what is going on.
First, I wonder if you have ever heard of avoidant personality disorder? One of my counselors in college told me he didn't think I had a full blown case of it, but that I had a lot of the same qualities.
You sound like how I used to be, and I know the ****** that it is. I think that it is very important for you to get on ADs first of all, hopefully something that addresses anxiety AND depression if possible.
You sound like you have a lot of anxiety, and your solution to alleviate it is to avoid situations and people that cause your anxiety. Then the more you avoid it, the more it reinforces your strategy, and you start avoiding more and more things until you're stuck.
That is how I used to be. I think you sound like you are somewhat socially phobic too. I used to feel like everyone who I ran into was judging me, thinking horrible things about me, thinking I was ugly or dorky or I shouldn't be there, that they could knew I was anxious and feeling bad about myself.

You know what I realized through years of therapy, work, and antidepressants? I am not that important. Sounds funny, but it's true. I am not that important that strangers spend time thinking about my faults, that I am the focus of everyone everywhere I go like I used to think I was.

You've been raised to believe that you are a piece of crap because you exist. You exist, therefore you are a piece of crap is what you've been conditioned to believed. The opposite is indeed true. You exist, therefore you are beautiful, wonderful, perfect because of your faults and your humanity and your uniqueness.

I know that you can't see it right now, but you are on the right path. I think it's important for you to realize that all of these thoughts and beliefs about yourself and other people are just thoughts. Thoughts and beliefs come and go, they are learned and can be unlearned.

Do you have any spiritual beliefs or religious beliefs at all? Sometimes they can help, sometimes the religion we've been raised in just makes us feel like there truly is something inherently wrong with us and fills us with shame.

I also think that you are on the right track, that you need to work on your own stuff first before you can get to the point where you are able to confidently confront your H about the things you need him to do. That is just my opinoin.

I think there are other things you can do that don't involve confronting him, like eliminating LBs and that kind of thing.

As far as your H and your daughter go, do you think that they might be ADHD? I know you've said that my H reminds you of yours, and I think that a lot of the messiness, stubborness, getting stuck in things and refusing to change, the mental disorganization sounds so familiar. It makes me wonder.

Also when you were talking about your H digging a fake river in the backyard, I just had to laugh. My H has done similar things. When we first bought the house four years ago he had a ton of unrealistic and bizarre ideas for what he wanted to do back there, and a pond was one of them. I had to put my foot down on that.

He obsessed for a few years on making raised garden beds, and it drove me nuts. He would insist that he was doing this for us and acted like I should help him, or like I should be grateful but really it's his hobby, not mine.

Your H sounds like he has major abandonment issues, and with good reason. When you want to go somewhere without him, I really don't think he's being a jerk about it because he doesn't want you to have fun. (Although maybe that is the case, I don't know.)
I really think that he is truly afraid that you are not going to come back. A lot of people have those fears and they haven't gone through half of what your H has been through.

The other thing I learned in IC the other day is that sometimes people (men especially) are more comfortable with anger than fear, so they learn to react with anger when they are afraid. The same thing used to happen after our daughter was born and I would want to go somewhere without them.

Looking back I see that he was terrified of being alone with her, he had no clue what to do, and maybe he was afraid that I wouldn't come back too. But instead of telling me that, he chose to turn his fear into anger. Maybe it was something like "I don't want to be afraid but you're doing something that is making me afraid, so I'm mad at you."

I know someone who's father died when he was a child and he can't stand it when his wife goes somewhere. If she goes on a trip to visit family, he's a wreck. If something goes wrong while she's gone, he is even more of a wreck.

I don't know what to tell you about your H's reactions to that because it sets me off when my H does that. People used to tell me "just ignore him and go" but I just didn't want to leave my baby D alone with someone who was SO angry.

I don't know if you'd be comfortable with it, but maybe when you tell him you're going somewhere, tell him exactly what it is, when you'll be back. Do you have a cell phone? If not you could tell him that if it makes him more comfortable you'll call him and check in halfway through your trip.
I know it's silly but maybe that would help him to feel more secure, and it would be a way of telling him "I know that you feel anxious when I'm gone" without really having to tell him.

I'm sorry you're having to go through all of this, I wish that your H would get into IC too, sounds like he could use it.

Thanks berkana. H definitely has ADHD, and it drives me nuts. Add his depression from all the things that have happened to us, and I'm surprised he's functioning. He takes D17 to school every morning, that's his way of bonding with her - he's been doing that since she was 5 - but the last 6 months or so have been horrible. He'll dress, go in the kitchen, stop and look through mail. While D17 is standing there waiting. He'll pick up keys and head out the door. He'll get to the car, then turn around and go back in and get his computer. Then he may stop at the mail again, and start going through it again. Or he'll go in the pantry and look for something to drink. And start to leave. Then he'll come back and get his vitamins. And leave. And realize he doesn't have his shoes on and go back in to get them. D17 is actually spending her counseling time with IC on finding ways to get past this so she's not late half the time.

I'll look up the avoidant personality thing. I'd never heard of it. But it fits. I meant to ask IC last night to find me a doctor, but the hour went so cockeyed because of the crying and stuff, we never got there. But she's got me coming back next Tuesday, so I'll do it then. I do have a lot of wellbutrin left over from last time I weaned myself off the meds, and I started taking them Tuesday, just so I'll have a little energy.

I've been asking him for 3 days to tell me when his 3 business trips are so I can see if one of them falls during D's spring break, cos I'm trying to book a vacation with the time share, and I wanted to know if he'd be here; he sent me the itinerary for one, but not the other two (and the one he sent, to Hong Kong, just happens to fall on our anniversary, of course). Anyway, I decided this morning that if he isn't going to let me know, I'll just book the trip anyway; it's not like we can change D's school's spring break. If he's around he can go; if not, we'll go without him. (which is what D would prefer anyway)

I would suggest when you talk to a doctor, that you are sure to mention that you have anxiety too. A lot of times they get stuck on the depression and don't even ask about anxiety, but there are meds like paxil that help with both. That's what I'm on.

My H drives me crazy with planning things too. That's something we started to address in MC. If I were you, I'd just plan it. I can ask him over and over to bring something home like a paystub or to get his insurance card or something and he gets the wrong thing or keeps forgetting until I finally get so upset I make it such a huge deal that he can't forget.

I hate to be that way, I don't want to play that role and I hope that you are able to find some way to figure out how to deal with his ADHD. Let me know if you learn anything!

I don't mean to make this about me and my problems, just trying to let you know you're not the only one.

Here's the wikipedia page on Avoidant PD. I think medication can help a lot with it. What helped me too was setting specific goals, like raising my hand in class and saying something, or asking someone to do something with me, or putting myself in a situation I would feel anxious in.
As I took those steps I slowly started to see that even though I felt anxious, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, and sometimes it was fun. The world didn't end just because I said something in class that was kind of off or wasn't perfect.
It is like getting over any phobia really, you have to expose yourself to the fearful situation little by little in tiny steps until your nervous system learns that it's really ok and there's not a reason to be afraid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder

Oh Cat, I can feel for your poor daughter trying to get out the door each morning with that sort of performance going on!

My ex-husband had ADHD also (runs in his family). Prior to marrying him I hadn't been the most organized person, but I grew heaps of ability during that time trying to deal with the mess that he caused. He also was very clingy and it drove me around the bend. He was also domineering and bossy, but in a subtle way, that also drove me a bit mad. ;(

I wonder if people with ADHD feel a need to control others because they feel that they can't control themselves?

Regarding needing some time alone, since your dh doesn't seem to see your need for it, how about taking some sick days off of work and just staying home, or going for walks in the park or something. I do that at times and call it a "Mental Health Day". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Time alone is a real, actual need, and be sure and tell youself that you deserve it. I consider myself lucky that my dh and I travel for a few days on business every couple of months. It gives us a couple of days apart, and works wonders for our relationship.

WebfootGirl, you're right on the money. Every time MrCat goes out of town, I take a sick day. Mental health day, lol.

Hey I am glad to know that others also take "mental" health days as well. I think I work when I am physically ill... just kinda suck it up and go...

BUT,

If I am really having a difficult time with something emotionally... I have taken days for this or on occasion I will just need a "me" day... some alone time.

I have a hard time when I don't get enough down time... or alone time. It isn't that I don't enjoy being around other people... cause I do.

I took that ennegram test last weekend, and when I stated that I wasn't sure if I was introverted or extroverted... someone else posted that part of determining that is how we recharge our batteries. Some people derive energy from being around other people. I think because in teaching there is rarely a moment alone during the school day...(well thank goodness we at least have single restrooms, we have some that are multiples, but for crying out loud... if I couldn't even go to the bathroom alone at work I dunno...) so I need dowm time, quiet time, after work or I feel more stressed. I think the quiet part is probably as important as the alone part. I am okay with down time with others as long as the time is quiet... where there does not need to be a lot of engaging.

I don't need a ton of time... an hour and I am good. Fortunately, my DH (also a teacher so he wants quiet and space) and the kids (after spending all day with others) like to have some down time of their own as well. I am really grateful that each member of the family respects this need and that since we do spend a lot of time together as a family, that I have less guilt than I used too about it...

but I used to spend a lot more time alone, and that was more about withdrawal... which wasn't healthy for me. I am learning to balance an appropriate amount of down/alone time without it leading into withdrawal. I think withdrawal was a coping skill for me for a lot of years.

Well I really just stopped in to share that I was grateful to know others take mental health days... hadn't intended to write all this. Hmmm...

Jilly

So here's a typical evening for me. I get home and instead of going to bed like I'd like, D17 and I clean house, rearrange furniture; then we study for her upcoming ACT until MrCat gets home, when I stop and make dinner. Then I sit down and research and take care of a PTA issue MrCat is responsible for but won't take care of and they keep calling me and asking me to get him to do it; so I just take care of it tonight because I ask him to do it and he just ignores me.

So we're watching the DVR of tonight's Lost as I work on it, and he falls asleep 20 minutes in; I keep watching it, and finish taking care of his PTA stuff. Lost is over, I'm watching HGTV; I get up to go to the bathroom which wakes him up and I come back and he's awake and going to the HBO channels. He knows I was watching HGTV, because it's the only channel I like to watch. I fume a little bit that he didn't even ask about changing the channel. So I unfortunately say "Yeah, I guess I was done watching that show."

Well, you would have thought I'd said he was the son of a wild pig or something. He harrumphs, turns his back to me, moves as far away from me on the bed as possible, and starts twitching his foot - his signal that he's pissed. So I calmly say "You know what? I could have said that a little less rudely. I'm sorry." Nothing. More twitching. I say what did I do that you're upset about? Nothing. If you would tell me, I could make sure I don't do it again. Nothing. I'd really like to talk about this so I'll know what I say that triggers you to get angry. Nothing. More tapping of the foot. See, I'm trying to use what I've learned here and coax out some dialogue for a change, LBs, ENs, whatever I can get. Nothing.

So finally I realize that what he's waiting for is our old dance, for me to come over to him, cuddle up, and start giving him SF, as an 'apology' for upsetting him. I debate with myself; this is a good time to try a boundary.

And I can't. I just can't. I don't have any practice doing the 'good' stuff, the 'right' way, and I just can't face the idea of spending a whole night with his anger, because the way this works is that if I don't play our 'dance,' the tension and anger builds up and he pulls out every mean thing he has in his arsenal for the last 30 years, he slams things around, he cleans! - LOL, I get scared of him when he cleans! - until I'm ready to just run out of the house and wander the streets for a few hours. (The last time I did that, a couple years ago, I took a knife with me and really wrestled with whether to just go out into the woods and not come back; but I didn't; he tracked me down and I went home.) And after the last couple of days, I just can't handle that.

So I cave, scoot over, and do what I know he's waiting for. Get it over with, I get up, check on D17, and go into the kitchen and start doing dishes and some laundry. He comes in, of course apologetic now, now that he's had his stupid orgasm. He won't speak it, the apology, of course, he never does. He just stands there, supposedly to let me know he's sorry and that he'd like me to come back to bed. Finally gives up and goes to bed.

So I'm on my third glass of wine, playing a game on pogo and journaling. Thanks for letting me have a place to do that.

Wow cat... so many thoughts are going through my head...

First off, from the very beginning of your post I was thinking "Where does she get all that energy???" I don't think I could do all of that, every day, day in and day out. Maybe one or two days, but then H would have to cook dinner or order pizza... You're incredible!

I'm gonna submit this in case you're still logged on, hoping for a reply before you go to sleep...

Ok, I also want to say I admire your restraint. You only made one comment that was in poor judgement, and you recognized it and apologized immediately. It's too bad he didn't respond accordingly, but good for you for doing your best on your part.

I hear that you gave in to his "change back" behavior because you were not prepared to stand up to it... too tired? Too stressed? It was your choice, you weighed the cost and decided it wasn't worth it. That's valid.

Is there something you can do to mentally prepare yourself for the next time? You got to the point where you considered not backing down- that's an improvement, right? A few more times like that, and soon you may decide your boundaries are worth the cost.

Was there a time when you stuck to your boundaries, with a good outcome? I thought there was.

What do you think about some H&O with him tomorrow? About what you were annoyed about in the first place; how you felt when he didn't acknowledge your "request" (admitting that it wasn't a Thoughtful Request); how you felt when you apologized and he didn't respond; and how you felt after accommodating him.

Thanks Jayne. You're right; at least I considered not backing down; that's an improvement. I didn't talk to him this morning, but if he calls, I might try to say something. That really is my main goal, the one I keep going back to - just saying what I'm feeling/thinking. Just so he's aware my side of the equation isn't as rosy as his. I was running a conversation through my head, but I'm just too raw this week to do it.

Cat, LA talked to me about the unreasonable expectations that I had of myself late at night, to be able to talk about issues at that time. What about finding forgiveness for yourself for your half of last night, for doing something against your code. And then like before, practice acting to your code in the daytime when you feel more in control of yourself.

What can you do when he's angry and you're not okay with that? What about sleeping in another room? Over time, you will get used to not trying to "fix him" when he's angry. Separate and equal.