I'm not sure it would be helpful for me to explore that on cat's thread- it may be more about me than her. If I'm projecting more into it because of how it would affect me, I would hate for the power of suggestion to make it that bad for cat... does that make sense?

I will post on my own thread. cat, please use care for yourself (ETA: I mean, if you think it would disturb you), and don't read that post... I will put a line at the top saying *spoiler warning for cat* just in case.

Maybe these are extreme precautions on this board. I hope no one thinks I'm being silly.

Jayney,

I respect your choice to explore or not and if and where you want to do it.

I don't think your post was power of suggestion either... I think you shared your honest feelings about how your reacted to Cat's post.

I think her post stirred up emotions in many of us. I think it is okay to say, I felt this way when you shared that.

And I admit that I get confused about where to do my sharing because I don't want to hijack someone's thread either... and I don't know when my own sharing is hijacking yet... still working on that one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

Hi all, just checking in to say I can't thank you enough for posting. Everything that everyone has said has been an immense help. I don't have time to work on it right now, will do so later. Just wanted you to know that things are going ok. MrCat worked a little on the house (reorganized the pantry) yesterday, and the biggest shocker - we were at Lowes buying stuff for the weedeater, and ran into a friend of ours; the man's having another baby and they were talking about working on the house, and MrCat admitted to this man that he hadn't done any work on the house in several years! That he had a ton of stuff to do! So maybe that bodes well for us. Of course, right now he's back on his computer, but at least he worked on the pantry last night. And I stepped up and commented several times (as he drug us around town on errands) how badly my feet were hurting from the plantar fasciitis, and he spent a good 3 or 4 minutes massaging my feet. So I'm hopeful.

Anyway, I'll be back later when I have time to sit down and respond to everything. And Jayne, please feel free to express yourself. I'm functionally a very strong person, I have a high pain threshhold, so if you think something you say would benefit me and help me get past this fear, I'd like to hear it. It can't be worse than what I tell myself, which was that I felt like a hooker. If MrCat had brought the subject up, that is what I would have told him (I think). Maybe I didn't do so well this time, but I was AWARE the whole time, a big break, so I think the next time I WILL be prepared to not repeat. Good stuff.

Cat,

I am glad you are back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Thank you for sharing this. You owned your stuff, your fear, your choice in that moment, and your desire to do it a different way next time.

I don't know of any other way to enact change... then to be aware of our choices, know them, and having the courage to work toward change.

I think you are doing great.

Jilly

Cat, that's all good!

I'm glad you are seeing some hope and progress with MrCat. Awesome that he worked on the pantry, and gave you a foot rub! I also agree that being aware this time was a big break, and you are getting stronger day by day.

I posted about my reaction on my thread, I'll let you decide whether or not to read it.

Cat, wow, I was telling myself that I was minsunderstanding because I'm so far on the outside your first post. Yet I was afraid to ask for clarification. That's about me, cat, the being afraid to ask. I am glad that you and jayne and jilly were brave enough to continue the discussion in that area, too. I guess it's a denial thing because I want to support your marriage, but I think we'd agree that coercive sex is a huge boundary violation. Is it a possibility that this is a misunderstanding, that he would be happy to make up in a different way instead? I guess not, or you wouldn't have felt like you described above, right? Have you all discussed this?

Cat, do you believe that your H is a man who would want to and would go ahead and have relations with you when you aren't enthusiastic about it? If you tell him that you're not willing to have SF after he's been angry, wouldn't that stop his attempts dead in their tracks?

Cat,

I had a thought about this.

The idea of "make-up" sex. I am wondering if Mr.Cat perceives what is happening as make-up sex? If Mr.Cat maybe thinks the sex is what would be considered the making up part. I wonder if you would feel more enthusiastic, if you were to be able to process the event first, share with Mr.Cat what you are upset about and have him share with you what he is upset about.

Rather than the SF itself being the make-up, the SF might follow after a period of sharing your feelings. I dunno, you still might not want to have SF then either and that would be okay too. I am just wondering if that would be a step closer to what you desire.

Thoughts?

Jilly

Yeah. She’ll be 18 in 6 months. I’m 99.9% positive she hasn’t had intercourse because it’s a very open subject with us, and I’ve been watching her carefully to gauge if her attitude or mannerisms change, for the last few years. She was very open Friday about what else she has done. LOL, I approached it like a BS spouse, and it worked! She fessed up to everything, told me how far she’d gone with anyone; asked her what she had done to them (last 2 boyfriends) and she exclaims Nothing! It’s gross to even think about touching that, and there’s no way anything that pees is going near my mouth! LOL. But I pointed out to her that what she’s done is setting her up for getting raped, if nothing else. Especially if the pictures were to get out. And last night I reminded her that this boy used to be best friends with her exbf of 14 months, and if he got mad at her, as immature as he is and without morals, it would be nothing to him to email those pix to her exbf; I’m sure she never thought of that. PLUS, he used to date (and still talks to) her evil lifetime enemy, the girl who’s been trying to ruin her reputation since 7th grade – so now she pretty much has to keep this idiot from sharing her pictures. He swears he deleted them, but yeah. I reiterated to her last night (still hasn't gotten hold of him) that if she talks to him before I'm there, that she is to tell him that I WILL get on a plane and hunt him down with a rifle, if I find out he spreads those pictures. If I'm there when she gets hold of him, I'll tell him personally.

Justjilly, when you lost all that weight, was that a nervous breakdown kind of thing? From trying to be Superwoman? My house is so NOT clean that I’m embarrassed to have anyone come in. I’m serious. My kitchen floor gets cleaned maybe twice a year. Haven’t cleaned the baseboards since we moved here 4 ½ years ago. All the walls need painted...could go on, but it’s humiliating to live here, just like in our last house, which MrCat also failed to take care of, and I didn’t have time or resources to do it all myself. Plus the depression, so I'm lucky to even get laundry done, let alone clean. Thanks for reminding me of the dumpster. I need to keep bringing that up, so MrCat knows I’m serious about getting it.

Your husband commenting on your typing made me realize something. Which may be part of my problem. My H doesn’t compliment me. Well, sometimes about a dinner I make, but that’s only because I’m such a bad cook that he’s surprised, LOL. He may brag to other people about me, but I never hear it. I give him strokes all the time because I realize he needs it, but he doesn’t seem to think that way – that he needs to care about my feelings. I guess it’s going to have to come from me, the being honest and telling him that I need to hear it now and then. No wonder I have no self esteem. He’s free and easy with the judgment, but not the compliments.

I was raised with no self esteem. My mother knew it at the time but was incapable of understanding why. And she was such a self-absorbed person, I think she never gave it enough thought to want to do anything about it. And when my dad left when I was 12, I just followed the typical route of abandoned girls that age – seeking my father’s redemption through getting boys to stay with me through sex. The first time one tried, and I refused, he promptly dumped me, so I learned my lesson good and quick. Then meeting a mentally abusive, gorgeous boy who all the girls wanted, who wanted me(!), well, I never gave it a thought to stand up to him. The only reason I was able to leave him was that I was working with a bunch of men, who gave me the courage.

Absolutely. Which adds to my self-hatred. My whole life has been a long series of giving in to get along because I was never told I could stand up for myself.

Yes, that is what he thinks. Which has been built upon our old dysfunctional relationships early in the marriage. Between his seriously messed up life, and mine, there probably wasn’t much hope for a healthy one. And I think the main issue is that, because I’ve never been able to defend myself because I don’t believe in myself, he is always the one who ends up being ‘right,’ whether he really is or not, simply because I can’t argue with him without falling apart. Lately, as I age, I’m starting to talk back, so we’ve argued more. I just need to practice doing it better so that it doesn’t continue for him to always ‘win.’ And to be able to accept the fact that I don’t have to smooth him over as I have in the past.

Powerful words, which I hope to enact. Thank you.

Last night as I was heating up leftovers, MrCat came and hugged me and promptly grabbed my breasts and I 'playfully' pushed him away, like I always do - because it also makes me feel like an object; I hate it. I've told him not to do it a hundred times over the years, but he never stops. But last night, I turned to him and said, 'you know, if you did that without grabbing me there, I'd be a lot more willing to hug you, all the time.' Curious to see if that changes anything.

More later.

cat


I think it might be time to consider retitling this thread. You ARE starting to talk to him. I'm so happy for you, cat. You've come so far. I see so much growth in you. You speaking up to him is HUGE. I think it will make a difference. I think it already is, for you. I see your confidence building.

KUDOS!

Tama

Catperson, I'm so proud of all the changes you've made.


This was a little scary to read. Because when she is old enough to have sex, she is already wrapping it in thoughts of shame, humiliation and grossness. This will not lead to the loving sexual relationship she will need to succeed when she is ready to get married.

If there is a theological reason for the comment regarding oral sex, I can understand. But now is the time -- at the very same time you struggle with the issues of sex -- to help her get ready to enjoy SF. To understand mutual enjoyment is a part of a healthy, loving relationship.


I feel for you on this point. Your husband reminds of a domestic partner I had in the past. He was so messy, I became discouraged and gave up. Our home was humiliating. My home before him? Spotless and organized. After him? Spotless and organized. What do some judgemental people remember? Just the time I lived with him.

I have a feeling from your level of frustration that you are a clean person who is living with a disaster. You gave up out of frustration. (Honestly, one person cannot carry the full load of two people. It's not possible.) Remind yourself that your home is not a reflection of how your home would be if your husband helped.


IC can help so much with this. I had a therapist who made me itemize the good things about myself over and over. It finally sunk in. We buy the judgemental garbage that people put on us. Yes, we may have issues that need attention, so, no, we shouldn't ignore every criticism we receive. But we SHOULD question it. Is this really true? Are they referring to a single incidents, saying I'm ALWAYS like this, when I'm not? Etc., etc. Please start to question the judgements your husband heaps upon your head.


Here again this points to good discussion material with your IC because right now, for your daughter's sake, it should be a goal to find out what a healthy sex life is like, if only in theory.


This reminds me of the Harleys' philosophy of the Giver. The Giver gives so much it neglects your own needs. It doesn't protect you. The Taker is not present to help balance things out.


This sounds like simple misunderstandings that are leading to a lot of resentment in the area of SF.


Annoying Habit alert <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />! Good for you, telling him you don't like it, that offering a substitute behavior that you both would like (more hugging.)

Haven't had time to go back and sit down and finish thinking about all the rest of the posts, will do that later when I have time to work on it. Just wanted to say: I'm sitting at the kitchen table trying to finish a work project, while MrCat and D17 are watching tv, and MrCat gets up and picks up his 12-inch-high pile of mail from the kitchen counter, and sits back down with it, to go through it. And I get excited! I actually thought 'yippee' because he's getting that much junk out of our lives. How silly is that, that I get thrilled just to see my H go through mail? *sigh*

Cat,

I am home today with DD8 who has a fever.
Well I imagine it could be described as a nervous breakdown of sorts.

It was the result of my own D-day. My DH was having an A.

I am not sure if you are familar or not with my history or the origin of my M. I thought you were but in case you weren't... deep breath, you may or may not want me to continue to post to you after you know this. I will respect your choice either way.

Cat, both my DH and I were married before. We had an A in 1995. The A before it was exposed was only a couple of month. Both DH and I left our marriages. We were both selfish, what we did was NOT okay. We were both about as wayward as they come. I could go into the whys... but when I do is sounds like a load of crap to me now... foggy thinking. The bottom line was what we did was just plain wrong.

We eventually married in 1998. Fast forward to 2006. I discovered my DH was having an A with a coworker. The karma bus stopped at my door and let me know just how devastating the choices I had made previously were. So not only did I have the typical BS emotions, I also had the shame and disgust of knowing that I had done this to someone else. YUCK.

I was a total mess... my fear was that DH would leave me and marry the OW. That was not an unreasonable fear as this was what history had already shown me. (I did not know DH also feared that I would leave him when I found out... didn't know this for a long time and even when he did share this, I did not really believe him for a long time. And he had just as much reason to fear as I did. History had already shown that I left a marriage when I was unhappy. I certainly was NOT happy upon discovering this A and I feared also that I might leave as well.)

We decided to try to work it out. We were both a mess. And not only did we have to address the current A we had to address our own A... all that stuff. I was suicidal. We began to go to church. It was at this time that both DH and I developed a strong relationship with God. We had both been raised Christians, and had both rebelled against our faith. We also did counselling. His current A was more complicated by the fact that he and OW were using recreational drugs together. DH was terrified I would find this out, scared I would leave him if I learned this.

And by this point I had become addicted to prescription pain meds... had been taking them for years for a chronic pain condition... and it bled over into me self medicating my emtional pain as well. I was also being treated for panic/anxiety disorder prior to any of this. I was not addicted or abusing anxiety meds... but I was abusing pain meds.

DH had his own prescription meds isssues to deal with as well. We had learned to cope with a lot of our stuff by medicating it. It was a very unhealthy way to be.

So we had the current A, our own A, the addiction issues, as well as a boatload of FOO stuff to deal with.

What we learned is that people are not replaceable. We both held the false belief that in our first M's that it was about the other person. That it would somehow be different with someone else. Turns out all our issues followed us into our M as well. So we were not any better off. Changing partners did not fix anything.

And I spiraled... for about the first six months after D-day. I got sick, developed ulcers, lost weight, had so many stomach problems... I was just sick. And the weight loss caused I believe a lot of fatigue as well. Thank God we had 8 weeks after for summer vacation right after D-day because I don't know if I could have worked.

We made the choice to stay together and try to work this M out. We believed that divorcing would not fix anything either. It has been a rollercoaster. There are some people here that believe we should have divorced. We have kids. Neither DH or I believed this was the best thing for them.

So here we are 20 months out from D-day. We are clean and sober... in recovery that way... and we are working on our M.

I cannot change who I was or the despicable choices I made. We have both done amends to the people we hurt as a result of our A.

I can be more specific about those amends if you like.

I wanted to share this with you in case you decide that you would not wish to continue posting with someone who is in an affair based marriage. I can accept if you can't. Part of the consequences for my choices.

Anyway, let me know. I thought I had shared that with you before or I wouldn't have been posting to you without disclosing that. Sheesh I though most people on MB knew... as whether or not I should even post on this message board was a big controversy. It is the reason, my own boundary that I do not post often on GQII.

I will wait to hear you choice and go from there.

Jilly

Oh please! Show me one person on here who doesn't need forgiving, and I'll show you a liar! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, thank you for sharing. It makes absolutely no difference to me what you or anyone else has done. Personally, I like to think of myself as PMB and AMB - pre-Marriage Builders and after-Marriage Builders. Nothing I have done before learning MB matters, because I was...unenlightened.

Some may have issue with me saying it makes no difference, when I have said on another's thread that I would never forgive my H for an A. But that's just my case; I have no right to judge anyone for anything. And if we're being honest here? I wish my H would have an A so I'd have an excuse to leave him. If I left for any other reason, it'd be on my shoulders for not working hard enough to fix things. But I don't have the feelings I'm supposed to have for him, and never have; I honestly only married him because he wanted me (when I believed I was unloveable), and I was raised to believe I had to get married, so I went ahead and got married. I've grown to love him, but it's never been the head over heels, I'll die without you love. It might have been if we hadn't both had so many issues, but all the struggles I've had with his controlling and anger and pessimism have made it hard to attain that love. So I don't think I'd feel the brunt of the pain that most people would feel.

But anyway, please, I think you're one of the most valuable posters here. I always learn from you. Post away! And I hope your daughter gets better.

I had IC yesterday, very productive. Talked a lot about FOO and we determined that the reason I freak out so much today about my house falling apart and looking bad is that as a teenager, with my dad having left when I was 12, my mom was working 80 hours a week for close to minimum wage (i.e., we were at poverty level), my brother was away at college, and I basically was alone in my house for 4 years, watching it basically fall apart around me because mom couldn’t afford to fix anything, and my dad wouldn’t help. I remembered someone coming to our door, asking if I wanted them to mow our yard, because the neighbors...were getting concerned. In other words, our house was the neighborhood embarrassment.

As I was telling her this, I suddenly remembered going out to the yard and trying to trim the grass – the entire yard - by hand, with the only tool we had – one of those little scissors-like bush trimmers, because I was so ashamed. I’ve repressed nearly all my childhood, so it was surprising to remember that.

Then we realized that all 3 houses I’ve lived in with H, he allowed to fall apart, and I had no control over it because of my inability to stand up for myself. So I basically have been reliving my humiliating childhood, over and over again, as I watch each house fall apart around me. Thus the unrelenting feeling I have every minute of every day I’m at home, that I need to be ‘doing’ something. But 90% of what needs done is something only H can do, and I’ve never had any spare money to pay for someone else to do it. And since I’ve never stood up for myself and said ‘enough!’, I had no control.

So, fast forward to this morning, I tell MrCat what I learned about the house thing, ending with “So I realized that when things fall apart at this house (slight DJ, but not directed at him), I’m reliving my childhood.” He’s listening, looking at me, and when I end with that, he says “Go see if D17 is ready to go.” Once again, if I say something personal, he changes the subject. I turn and walk away, and he can tell I’m hurt/upset, because he calls out “Are you mad?”

Now, I know he didn’t respond because of his own fear and his own acknowledgment and shame that he’s not fixing the house, and because he simply doesn’t know how to discuss sensitive stuff. But so blatantly shutting me off like that...*sigh*

So I come back downstairs and he’s still standing there. I say “One of the few times in my life that I’ve ever told you anything personal about myself, and you change the subject. It hurts.” He said he answered me; I said, no, you just told me to go get D17. He backpedaled, said I was turning away (I wasn’t), so he thought the discussion was over. So I just shook my head and left.

But at least I told him something personal (very rare) and I also told my feelings after being shut off.

I need to talk some more here about the rest of what y’all said about the other night, and add in what the IC said about it, but I’m really swamped at work this week, and need to put some thought into it first. I put this down because I didn’t want to forget how it went. More later.

Thnaks, cat for the update! That is so cool that you are back in the pattern of you sharing your O&H. And then, you are O&H about the "change back" behavior, too!

Cat, how would you feel about looking at your H as someone going through the same shame-based issues you are, but without the same support system that you have. Maybe YOU are the support system that he has, for today. Until he is ready to find a support system that is not just you. That's a lot of burden on one pair of shoulders. How can you balance helping him, without losing yourself?

It looks to me (my opinion, not fact) that you are getting out from under that rock a little bit at a time. Which would stop enabling him, and his pain would be to show him that he would benefit from growing more self-reliant and more willing to ask for help from others. Not just you, maybe an IC, too, and other friends. That he could do this and take some burden off of you, so that your 15 hours of UA time would be focusing on each other in love instead of attending to his wounds.

What do you all do for RC? Would this be another way to get out of the counselor role with him, to get involved in enjoyable activities, where you each are meeting needs instead of tending his wounds?

I think it is awesome that you can share your background with him, but this is far from the bulk of your time together. You were telling him the problem, and now you all can brainstorm solutions. But you were not placing this burden on his shoulders. But yet (my opinion) I could see him in your story placing this burden on his shoulders, and then immediately throwing it off. What about holding it in your hands together and looking at it, getting enough information to solve it in the present (ie fixing your current home up) without putting it back on either of your shoulders? Then feeling free to set it down, knowing that you have a plan in place to address it?

Applause, applause! Even though he didn't respond the way you needed to respond, how brave to do what you did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And what progress to have connected a childhood issue with your present day life.

Oh Cat,

Thank you for your response. I still have great fear when I share this. And I still have to remember that not everyone does know my history or the origin of my marriage.

I am grateful that you can accept me where I am now. The past remains what it is... I cannot change it. Doesn't mean I am still the same person. I liked your analogy of PMB and AMB. Reminds of Maya Angelou's saying "When we know better we do better." I really didn't understand the idea of why setting up boundaries in a marriage, to protect the marriage, really matters. I didn't get that extraordinary precautions were necessary. I so get that now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I liked this part... rang true for me. We all do need forgiving.

I am home again today, with DD8 who still has a fever, a cough, and is sneezing. Fever is averaging about 101 degrees... no vomiting, but no appetite either. Last night when her fever was 102 I let her have a popsicle... (we are THOSE parents who let their kids eat popsicles when they have fevers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) She did not want to take Tylenol because she thought she might throw it up. If it goes above 102 then I insist. 102... that's my limit. At least she isn't running at 105, which she has often, when she has had flu like stuff. I am really watching the cough, since when she was in kinder, she developed pneumonia after a bout with the flu and was so sick she missed three weeks of school.

This year, in my area, we have been inindated with a lot of junk... colds and flu, bronchitis, pneumonia, and meningitis. I have had more students out this year than any other year I think. Ugh... not fun stuff for kids or parents. I was gonna respond to you yesterday after I read your post and then I laid down with DD, and wound up sleeping on and off the rest of the day and other than taking care of her, I didn't get anything done. I don't know if I was just tired, kinda felt like I might be coming down with something myself, but I feel okay today.

DH has agreed to take tomorrow and Friday off if DD is still sick. And DSS also has a cold, but no fever, so he is toughing it out and going to school.

Next week is a district wide vacation week, so it will be nice to have some time off. Maybe I can make a dent in the housework. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I am so behind.

I will respond to what you said about your house being messy in my next post to you... I get not wanting people to come over though... as I write this, there are some dishes in the sink, and about 5 loads of clean laundry that are in baskets and need to be folded. I am gonna wind up shoving them back in the dryer on the dewrinkle cycle, since they are wrinkeld from sitting in those baskets since the weekend.

And I checked one set out of the four sets of the papers I need to check. I am going to try to get that done today too.

My dad is fond of saying that when your to do list or inbox is empty then it means you are dead... cause it never will be empty or all finished. Good to know. Thanks dad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am so happy for you that you are doing the IC, it is really good self care. I like that your therapist is helping you reach back to the FOO stuff to help you get into how and why it is still with you today. Sounds like you are making good progress with the IC.

I know that you have stated that your DH doesn't really want to accept that he has any issues... that it appears it is always about other people, but I know you now know that is his OWN fear talking. Maybe as he witnesses your own growth, he will be more willing to do some of his own work. Even as we already know we can only do our part, our half, hard not to wish that our partners would get on board. 30 years is a long time... to get to the point that you are... it is gonna take some time to change some of those patterns. Although at times it might not feel like it, being married for 30 years, is really quite an accomplishment. So there are issues (all marriages have them) you still have bragging rights for sticking it out... when others would have left Cat.

That is something Cat, it really is.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Jilly

That's what I was hoping to do. I thought that, by mentioning the stress I'm under because of FOO and current house, by bringing the subject up, we could talk about it. Maybe come up with one thing we could work on together, to whittle away at it all. That's what IC told me to do. But we never got to talk about it, because he changed the subject. Out of shame, I'm sure, but that still doesn't get the subject discussed.

D17 will be gone for the weekend at a conference, so I think I might say on Friday, after I take her to the conference, that I'm going to tackle one of the projects this weekend. He usually steps in when I do that, and takes it over (because in his words I'll just do it wrong), and then holds it over me later, a la 'I'm always having to do work because of you.' But IC told me to just say, I've asked you to do it for X years, and I just can't handle it not being done any more. So I'll take care of it. But thank you for offering to help. Then see what happens.

Cat,

I wanted to address this part of your post because it made me think of a book you might want to read called The Five Languages of Love by Gary Chapman.

Chapman's pretense in the book is similar in some ways to Harley's emotional needs, love bank concept. Chapman calls it a "love tank" which is really pretty much the same thing as Harley's love bank. Chapman describes five love languages spoken. The five are: Words of Affirmation; Quality Time; Receiving Gifts; Acts of Service; and Physical Touch.

Basically we give and receive love in our primary love language. My primary love language is Acts of Service. I do things for others and my bank fills when others "do" things for me. My DH on the other hand is a Words of Affirmation speaker. It is why he often compliments me. He speaks this language and receives love this way as well. He likes to be complimented, affirmed.

When I read the above, I wondered if maybe you are also a Words of Affirmation gal. You often compliment Mr.Cat, yet you feel like he rarely compliments you. Could be the reason you do compliment, as this is a way that you receive love. Could be Mr.Cat is another primary language... my guess might be he is a Physical Touch speaker based on stuff you have posted. It is possible to have one dominant language and then another one that is sort of secondary as well.

Understanding how we give and receive love, as well as our partners, and it maybe very different is helpful. It helped me, because I was immediately able to see which language both my DH and I spoke. Knowing this, allowed both of us to make efforts to show love for each other in each other's primary language. I work to affirm or compliment my DH more, and he works to do more stuff for me.

It sounds to me like your mom had a lot of her own issues and these issues interfered with her ability to really be present for you growing up. Sounds as if she had her own abandonment issues... and you have those too. I have them too so I get that. One of the things that I understand better about the shame and fear about abandonment is that it can manifest in the abandoning behavior itself. Seems kinda weird that as someone who feared greatly being abandoned that I would exhibit abandonment behaviors as well. I think it is totally a fear based reaction. In other words, if you fear being abandoned, one way to protect yourself is to keep others at arms length... don't let anyone in too close because if you do the risk that they will leave you is not worth the chance they won't. So, I would leave before getting left. And I learned that I also chose to abandon myself... many times. I believe it is a shame-based act of self preservation. What do you think about this?

Yep, and when we chose to abandon ourselves we build huge resentments... toward ourselves. As you are learning to stand up for yourself, that your voice matters, does that increase or decrease the fear?

Here is the part that gets sticky. I know that I have had to accept some things that I didn't want to acknowledge about my own power and how I gave it away due to a lack of belief that I was safe. We always have had the power to defend ourselves Cat, we just chose not to. The fear that we weren't safe to do so is where we got stuck. Fear of abandonment teaches us that if we speak up, disagree, then we run the risk of being left. So we disown ourselves, keep quiet, because the fear is so high that if we don't we will be left.

What are we learning about this now though? We can speak our minds, we can have arguements, and we are still okay. Our voices matter Cat, they really do. And when we choose to shut ourselves up, to keep the peace, we disown ourselves... by saying the smoothing over is the most important thing. But we also are realizing that the smoothing over... is only a temporary fix... builds huge resentment in us. Someone posted that resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. I've heard it two ways... one with resentment and one with revenge... they seem linked to me though. When we choose to go for the smoohting over, when we cave, (and I am still doing this too, you are not alone on this one at all) we violate ourselves.

Nasty pattern it is... based in fear.

Wow Cat, good for you for sharing you O&H about the affection. My DH also does the hug to grope thing too. Sometimes it doesn't bother me and others times it annoys me so much... like insect repellent almost. I think as we learn to be more O&H with our DH's about this, not to shame them for this, but to clarify for them... why this type of affection is not always appreciated, then we are doing our half, our part in helping them to understand why this isn't met with good reception on our parts. My IC helped me with this some, shared that many men show affection this way, and that for some women this causes tension because there is an underlying fear of the expectation that this is a push for SF when it might not be. It may be some of the time and it may just be groping with no further expectation. Hard to know isn't it?

My IC shared with me that often for women when this happens we tense up. We don't switch gears that fast and so if we can share this with our DH's, that it isn't that we do not want SF or that there advances are totally unwelcome, that sometimes we need time to shift gears. The recoiling comes from the hidden expectation of SF. Can feel like pressure to switch gears quickly which we may not be able to do.

Jilly

Heya Cat, I found you. I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to read 22 pages,and at least I can catch up slowly.