There might be something to that, about avoiding conflict at night. I definitely feel stronger in the morning. If I hadn't been such a total bundle of nerves this week for some reason, I might have tried a drive-by this morning as I left. I'll try to hold myself to that the next time.

I've always been afraid to take such a big stand as sleeping in another room, because the couple times I've tried it, he follows me in there and harasses me until I relent and come back to our room. Maybe now that I'm older, I can feel strong enough to do it.

"and he pulls out every mean thing he has in his arsenal for the last 30 years"

Cat, this isn't acceptable, it's abuse. I am telling what I do not to give advice, but to validate what you said about this being unacceptable. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood, and if was earlier, I go for a walk, but if the kids are already in bed, then I go drive to the neighborhood pool, put my driver's seat back, and lay down. I have friends who are up late that I know I could call from my cell if I needed to talk through something. I'm not ready yet to call someone late, because I wouldn't like to bother them, but I feel less alone knowing that I can call when I need to.

I have my Alanon One Day at a Time book in there, that has an index on different things I might wat to refer to, like loving detachment, Let Go and Let God, Easy Does It, How Important Is It. And I listen to Inspirational music if it's still on, and if it's not, I sing to myself. Now that I learned breathing exercises in IC, I could add that, too.

And I pray, I pray for help turning my will and my life over to Him. I pray for faith that he has a plan for me, and pray to know it so I can follow it. I think of the scripture, I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Cat, you describing the episodes helps me realize I'm not alone in needing these what I consider extraordinary precautions. We had a dance that restored order in my house, too. What calmed my H down is my AO, then he knew that he was in control again. Because people in the driver's seat don't have the AOs, the passengers do.

Like Al Turtle's article suggests, I give it at least 20 minutes before I go back, but he also says that sometimes people need overnight to reset.

Cat, what would be a good plan for you when he taps his foot? That part is not acceptable behavior. Can you accept that he does disapprove of you sometimes? Not that he "should" do that, but we're human, and we make mistakes in a marriage. Tapping a foot and being uncomfortable are not fatal blunders, right? Okay, you were not ready to share your O&H, last night, that wasn't a fatal blunder either, right?

Think of the advice to KLD, to just be calm and listen. The advice to Wonderin, that just because someone wants something doesn't make it her job to give it to him. Do you think that would have helped last night? Do you think that you've made enough changes in your relationship yet to where you could turn over, go to sleep, and know that like Hold says, "You Can Handle It"

I don't know what a good plan looks like. I've tried rolling over, I've tried leaving the room; it makes him madder, because he doesn't get his resolution, and he blows up. I just need to be honest from now on. I keep saying I'm going to.

CP, your post made me cry, literally. I think our H's might have been separated at birth.
I'm not sure that I'm the one to be giving you advice considering that our situations are so similar, but maybe that is a good reason for me to give you advice. Take this for what it's worth.
I got to the point with my H a long time ago where I just do not care if he blows up. I mean I am not going to change my behavior to avoid a blow up from him. If he wants to do that, that's his option. I am not responsible for his moods, thoughts, or emotions or behavior.

The fact that you feel like you have to have sex with him to keep him from blowing up really upsets me. IMO, you shouldn't have to do that.

In the past, I didn't have sex with H but I would have to fawn all over him, hug him, cuddle, and massage him to get him to calm down. And after we had D, I just didn't have the energy to do that anymore. I could be wrong here and going against MB principles, but I think that if someone gets that angry about every little thing, won't talk about it or admit that they're angry, you have the absolute right to remove yourself from the situation.

I think that it's ok for you to say (if you can do it) "My impression is that you are angry with me. I don't feel comfortable being around you when you are angry and won't discuss it with me. I need time to myself, so I'm going in the other room. When you are ready to talk calmly, please let me know."

It's not acceptable for him to follow you into the other room. Do you have locks on your doors? Maybe you need to get one.

I hate to tell you to do something that might escalate his abusiveness, but at the same time, I hate to see you pandering to him because you're afraid of him.

My H used to do the exact same things, get mad about something trivial, then refuse to talk about it, act like a child, sigh, huff, roll over, and start twitching. Or he'd clean. God I know what you mean about the cleaning. I got so sick of it in the last couple of years I started to think to myself "well maybe I should start fights just so the house will get cleaned."
I have no idea why they do it, it's like they're trying to say "see, I do things around the house, you can't be mad at me."

You're doing so well, making small changes and learning new things. I know it is SO difficult with what you've been through in your life and how he reacts to you. You have a lot of strength and courage.

I meant to say, the foot tapping part is not UNacceptable behavior, but I think you got that.

I practice saying things in the car. Would would your O&H be?

Oh, cat! I remember how you asked me to talk to my H at a calm time!

You are so good at helping me with phrasing. How does this sound? "I love you too much and our marriage is too important to me to continue to do things that I am not happy about with you. I know that people get ticked and tap their feet, but I have to tell you that today, it makes me very uncomfortable. If it happens at bedtime, like it did last night, I am going to roll over and try to sleep, but it is hard because I'm not used to this, and I have a lot of fear. I am working on that. I am asking you once to let me be, and if you have something to say to me, the next morning we can plan to decide when we want to have that talk. One day, we can talk whenever it comes up, but I ask you to respect where I am today. Today, there is a lot of fear for me in this, and I am working on that in IC."

Then, in another conversation it's too much at once "If you have any criticism of me without planning with me first when to talk about it, I am going into another room. Because my discomfort is so great, that I have to ask you not to just spring it on me. If you follow me to the other room, I will consider that not respecting my pace, and to stand up for the love that I have for you, I am leaving the house for the evening. I have a lot of fear right now, but if we can address these things slowly and respectfully, I am confident that we can find solutions that we are both enthusiastic about."

How would you say somehting like that?

Berkana, thanks for sharing that! I wish you were here when I was going through my trial and error. But I'm glad that your're here today!

Thank you. Like I said, I don't know if I'm the expert on this because it seems like in the past few years I've just been making H escalate. I really think I should have told him I wanted a separation a lot sooner but I was too scared.

{{berkana}} Your post made ME cry, lol! I had to shut my office door. Your words have helped very much, probably because we're so similar. I can see myself telling him I'm leaving the room. Plain, easy to say, break the cycle. I'm not very good at speeches and I'm so out of practice of talking to him about anything except him and his work, I think I'm rusty, lol. Anyway, I hope to remember that the next time it happens. Thank you.

Thanks ears. Like I said to berkana, I'm lousy with talking, have been all my life. If/when I say something, it's going to have to be short and sweet, before I pass out.

Will have to think on it. Maybe he'll help me out by calling me today and asking me how I am, and I can just be honest. He does that sometimes, calls me afterward, trying to be nice.

And on top of all this crap, and such an unusually emotional week, I was in my D17's email account looking for something for tomorrow's ACT test, and found a few dozen emails to a male friend of hers who moved to another state, who got a girl there pregnant and now these 16 year olds are raising their baby together. D17 has been saying he's her best friend now, and I've been getting a little worried. So these emails have attachments, so I open one. Lo and behold, she's sending him pictures of her...in various stages of undress, all the way to all undressed. And sent one to some other email I never heard of. And had a conversation with a guy in England...telling him not to call her any more (!) and she has to go back to college! (my high school junior!)

*sigh* I really don't need this right now.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. I saw the same problem in the Ann Landers column yesterday. I guess it's a new trend. What about only having internet access on one computer, in the family room?

Maybe it would help your daughter to do a research project on child predators. It is probably a subject that she'd find very interesting. Once she learns about the grooming process, she will be able to recognize it and see it as the sickness as it is, that it is not about her and how pretty she is and the signals that she's told that she's unknowingly been sending. I remember when I read, The Courage To Heal, it's like my eyes were opened. Knowledge is power.

What do you think about talking to her Health teacher about leading a group discussion in class about this, the signs and the tactics to look for? I wish I'd had this information when I needed it.

I would also suggest talking to her counselor. Do you have the same counselor?
I am not an expert but in my opinoin I wouldn't say anything about it. She's just going to shut you out unless you two have a very close relationship and she can trust you to talk about these things.
I would be losing if it I were you. I would honestly rather know my 17 y.o was having sex with someone they knew and loved than putting pictures of herself naked online.

What worries me is that all it takes is for that guy to forward one of those pictures to someone else, and then who knows where they will go. I don't know how I would broach that subject with her.

Maybe you need to keep control of the camera. I think it's normal at her age to be experimenting sexually but at the same time, she's doing it in a dangerous way.

Have you guys had the birth control talk at all? I would say if she's doing these things it's a matter of time before she is having sex. I don't know what I'm going to do when it's time for my dd to go through this stuff, I'm going to be a basketcase.

Good luck. I also hope that your H doesn't find out. I know that's probably against MB concepts, but I just think he's going to make it worse if he finds out. If there's anything you can do to keep him from finding emails like that....

Now that I think about it, maybe you should talk to her. What if she decides to do this again and forgets to remove the files from the camera or the computer and your H finds them?

Anyway I'm not trying to worry you even more but spare you and dd more pain.

Good luck. I think also if I were you I'd take her to the OB/GYN. I think they're supposed to start going around 17 or 18 anyway and it'll open the door for her to get some information and have neutral people to talk to. Unless you don't want her to have neutral people to talk to and you're morally against all of this.

I'm sorry.

We do have a very close relationship. She tells all her friends that I'm her best friend.

So...we talked. First I brought out her printed out grades showing she's failing English, Math, and Chemistry; in tears over that, blah blah blah. She keeps looking at the other stack of papers, not knowing what they are. I ask her what her relationship is with C, the boy up north. blah blah blah. Cos it seems like he decided he couldn't hack it living with his girlfriend (mother of his child) at about the same time that your emails and calls ramped up. No, it's just kind of a pretend thing, but I'll never have sex in high school, if that's what you're worried about (she always tells any guy she dates she won't have sex until she's out of high school; too many plans). So I said speaking of morals, and turned over the papers with all the pictures. It was just this one thing, I swear! I said, it went on for over 3 weeks, with the pictures progressively more naked! She says he was telling her she was attractive, the way boys around here don't do. Nobody ever asks her out (and she's really pretty and popular), but all her friends are getting asked out by multiple guys.

Bottom line, tons of crying. No more computer, no more cell phone in the bedroom, grounded, has to tell C she can't talk to him any more. She has to call him with me in the room, and I told her to tell him personally, for me, that I'll be monitoring everything I can get my hands on, and if I find that one single picture of her leaks out anywhere, I will personally fly up there, buy a shotgun, and hunt him down.

I'll look at things in a month, to see how I feel. I told her I had to be present when she tells him; see, I'm applying MB rules here, because I consider this somewhat of an affair - her friend C is/was living with his girlfriend and her mother, raising their baby together. Now he's not, most likely because he's getting all this attention from D17.

I also asked her what else she's done. She was kind of like a WS - now that it's out in the open, she was willing to tell me the truth about everything; or so she says. Hated hearing about the second base (in the pants) stuff that she admitted to. *sigh* I told her it will take a long time before I ever trust her again. She had to wipe her computer clean, can't touch it unless I'm in the room. Good idea about the camera; thanks. Oh, and no more shut door; she already knows no locked door, but no shut door for the rest of the month.

She begged me not to tell H; asked me 3 or 4 times if I was going to. I have no intention to, but she doesn't need to hear that. I said it depends on whether she gains my trust back.

Good lesson, I think, in how once she got a laptop, she became addicted to the Internet. She agreed. I told her grounded until all her grades are back to Bs. Reading a book every night (she needs to finish Roots, which she borrowed from my mom 6 months ago). Bringing home all textbooks and studying 30-60 minutes each day until the grades are up. NO contact with C. She tried to deflect it as she was going to bed, by saying at least she's not into drugs or anything. I calmly said no, but you now have naked pictures of you on the Internet. For anyone to find. Think about it.

She goes to a C, the same one I do, so this will be our next topic. That any why she feels a need to get friends this way, when she's so pretty and popular.

I need a drink.

Thanks, everyone.

Cat, I feel so bad for your last experience. I can't imagine having sex with my H just to keep him from being more ugly to me. You owe yourself so much more than that. Sex is a special thing in a M and it's gotten to the point that it's not that way for you. I so hate that for you.

I know you're going to find the right way for you to approach him. You're making great strides towards getting to the place you want to be. Just because you feel you had a set back last night isn't the end of the world. Just pick yourself up and get back on track. I'm very proud of you and inspired!

Oh cat - I didn't read the stuff about your D before I posted. I don't have kids so I can't begin to understand or give advice on this. I think you were so right to talk to her and be strict with the consequences. Now you have to make sure you stick to it for the whole time (this is the only advice I know for sure!!!)

I'm so glad you found out about this so you could deal with it.

Enjoy that drink!! I just took an ambien, so I'll be good in about 30 minutes!

Wow catperson, just wow. That's so amazing that you were able to be so open and honest and not judgemental but just realistic. She's so lucky to have a mom like you.
I love the part about driving up there with a shotgun. I'm the same way, I would say that too.
I'm just so impressed, you handled it so well. I might just save this somewhere so I can read it 14 years from now. ha.
Kudos to you.

Cat, you sure know how to speak up when it comes to your daughter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad that she has such a strong momma bear.

Oh Cat,

I hear you about the typical evening stuff... I don't do all the cooking anymore, or all the housework either... but I used to do about 90% of the indoor household stuff, cooking, cleaning, laundry, bill-paying, homework helping, and on and on the list goes.

Even now, with a lot more help from DH, my typical day is still pretty loaded... I do take my alone time after work most days, because I don't think I could get any more stuff done if I didn't. Sometimes though I find myself saying... if I sit down I will not get up... so best just to not sit down. And right now, the house is a mess, I am behind on the laundry, I have paperwork from meetings I need to get done, papers to check, there is it seems always stuff TO DO. I am an eternal list maker. Then I have guilt too about not getting everything on my list done, as it seems I used to be able to get it all done. I am having a sort of a mild panic attack about it right now as I post this.

I am really fighting for 90 degrees, a healthy sized plate... to stop living in extremes. I used to be OCD almost about my house. I sure liked having a spotless house, but there were others areas of my life that were less attended to then. Then I when I hit crisis mode 19 months ago, I virtually was unable to do much of anything. I am naturally thin, and lost 27 pounds. I hit below the 100lb. mark and people thought that I was sick. I was sick... not well, emotionally overwhelmed, and the house was a mess most of the time. I was tired most of the time. I couldn't stand the mess.

Then we did the dumpster big clean and stuff started to become more manageable again. I have gained back 12 lbs. and I no longer look sick. But I know I am still struggling for balance... to be healthy... 90 degrees. Not a spotless house, but not a pigsty either.

I have sleep issues as well. I either undersleep...(average 5 hours a day) or oversleep... like catch up sleep (12-16 hours sometimes... or I'll go to sleep early Friday night like 7 or 8pm and then sleep 12-14 hours get up for a few hours, do a few things, and then take a nap which winds up really more like just sleeping the rest of Saturday, through Saturday night sometimes, and the I go into overdrive on Sunday to make up for all the stuff I didn't accomplish because I slept so much on Saturday.) I don't get why it is easier for me to fall asleep earlier on the weekends, when I don't have to get up early and have a hard time falling asleep on weeknights when I have to get up around 5am for work. I am out of balance with this. I like to fall asleep to the TV... I have been like this for a long time. Even though I know I fall asleep faster when I read.

(PS we watch Lost too... but I have them saved on TIVO, and have not watched any of the new season yet. It is one show DH and I both love to watch together.)

(DH just shared with me this... right now he said, " JJ, you really type fast. He said you aren't looking at the keyboard, and you edit as you go." Which was a total compliment since I have never taken a typing class, I feel like I am a slow typer, and I do believe that posting here has increased my typing skills so I am just sharing that hey who knew MB could also improve our clerical skills as well? Thanks MB!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So when I read through the first part of your post I was feeling yeah, I get that same feeling of the typical day... I hear ya. And then I got to this part.

And I am reaching for the word to descibe my reaction... my feeling when I read this. I know I felt upset about it. I know I connected to it too... and those are different dance steps then we do... but I do recognize the smoothing over steps, the restoring peace steps... mine look maybe different but I definitely had a reaction to this part of your post.

I think part of it for me has to do with low self esteem... from way back... cause I sure didn't have any as a teenager and into my 20's. I had a warped self image... and I had sex that I didn't really want to have. I don't know if it because I thought so poorly of myself, and believed I had nothing else to offer, or if I had sex because I thought it was a way to get love... but I do know I compromised myself by having sex I did not really want to have. I was very disconnected from the sex itself. It was not a connecting experience for me. I believe that might have something to do with the SF issues I still have now. I am still working through some of the SF stuff and trying to get to the bottom of why I still have issues with it even now. I think I shared some of it on DrySpell's thread.

I think my connecting to what you wrote was about the dance steps, even when I believe I know another way, and then I just can't do what I believe... I violate myself, betray myself which ties into something that Ears posted to me about abandoning my own self on the villagers thread.

Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we compromise our own beliefs? LA shared with me about the two baseline emotions fear or love. That most things can be traced down to acting from fear or acting from love. I think for those of us who are shame-based perhaps a lot of our choices and our beliefs trace back to fear. Fear if I don't... then I will be less than worthy of any love.

I can be going along doing pretty well, feeling stronger, building confidence, and then BAM... I smack right back into my past beliefs and old habits. Even when I know there is another way... why will I still reach back for an old step that I no longer need? Is is the whole three steps forward two steps back thing?

So I am wondering Cat, how you feel when you choose to have sex with DH when you don't want to... well at least my perception is that is what you are doing... is that correct? Do you feel like you compromise yourself or abandon yourself when you choose to go for the smoothing over?

I liked what Ears shared about the late night stuff when we are tired... like maybe at night or when we are really tired it just seems or feels easier to just cave and go for what we believe will smoooth it over, or soothe. I also was wondering if you had drilled into you the belief that married people should never go to bed angry at each other? I sure know I heard that one growing up. When I think about that belief now... I think that is a nice theory but I don't belive it is doable for me right now to have an expectation of either for myself or for my DH or even the kids that they will never go to bed angry. Seems to me like wishful thinking...

and wishful thinking is also something LA shared with me. She shared with me that when we are in wishful thinking mode that is a signal to know that we are in our child... because as children we couldn't control anything but we sure could wish for stuff. So I know I do try to pay attention to when I find myself in the whole I sure wish so and so would do such and such... or I sure wish I would.

She also shared with me about the word "should". I think I must have been at the time using the word should a lot in my posting. She told me we can should ourselves to death. I remember being in awe of that statement. So I know am also more aware of when I catch myself in should mode.

I know fear drives my unwillingness at times with my O&H's. Which then builds resentment, because it isn't like I don't know what I want to say... just that I still sometimes withhold from saying it. I know I have gotten better about this but I still have miles to go on that path.

Also there were the things that you shared about what you discovered in DD17's email and I felt a sense of unease about it too. I liked Ears suggestion about maybe limiting the internet access to the family room. Since DSS14 has a computer and internet access in his bedroom, I know I felt my own fear rise about online predators. DH is pretty consistent about monitoring what DSS is doing online. He has some kind of program that he uses that shows him a report card that tracks DSS's computer use.

Right now DD8's computer is also in the den with DH's computer and my computer and she is not allowed to go to any site where there is chatroom kind of access. The scary thing is that there are now these stuffed animals that when you buy them they have an internet site that kids can go to and those sites have chatrooms. We so far have vetoed her access to anything like that.

The online predator, grooming etc. really scares me a lot. I am glad for you that you did come across what you found so that you can at least talk to her about it... although I admit I have no idea how to broach the subject, and I hear you saying that you are concerned about the pictures and emails you found.

One of the things I did want to share with you is that I do see you as a strong and confident woman. Your posts read that way to me.

I believe that as we work through our shame-based core issues, it will truly help us redefine our own beliefs, let go of our old outgrown false beliefs, and work toward taking back our own power.

I know I too find comfort in my relationship with Christ. Like Ears, I am working on Letting Go and Letting God, and someone here posted (I think it was Neak but I am not positive) that during a time in her life when she was having difficulty praying, that she would listen to worship and praise music and she could connect to God that way. I was really grateful for her for sharing that...(and Neak on the off chance that it was you that said this and you are reading this, I wanted to tell you that I mentally thanked you for sharing that, and if you are reading this I am saying thank-you outloud to you right now for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />because I have found that it does help me a lot when I feel stuck when I have a difficult time feeling connected through prayer.)

I also wanted to share that I didn't know this before, didn't understand that when I am talking to God in my head about stuff, that it is also prayer... not what I believed prayer looked like... believed prayer was more formal... my belief about that has changed greatly and for that I am really relieved.

Cat, if I haven't told you today that I really admire that you are willing after 30 years in your M to do this work now... not to just leave things status quo, let me shout it from the rooftop, I REALLY ADMIRE YOUR CHOICE to do this.

(((Cat))) you are brave.

I was also thinking about what you posted on villagers about your job now and your job with NASA. I want to talk with you a bit more about that, so in my next post to you on villagers if I forget to bring that up with you, please remind me about it okay?

Tomorrow's a new day and another chance to try to do it differently. I really do believe that the work we are all doing and the changes we are working on making can and do take time. Thank you so much for being on this earth and sharing this journey with all of us.

Jilly

Wow, some really awesome posts here...

I glossed over the SF part because it was quite upsetting to me. I'm glad others were able to comment on that. I don't know, reading it was almost like reading about someone being raped... cat, I hope it doesn't upset you that I said that. As you describe it, you didn't want it at all, you were coerced, emotionally forced, blackmailed. This, with the stuff ears pointed out, really sounds abusive.

Imagine someone else posting something like this. You give excellent advice; what would you tell them?

Jayney,

The SF part was upsetting to me as well. Why did you gloss over it? Would you be willing to go deeper here and share why you felt upset personally?

I triggered to rape but in a different way. Where my choice to have sex I didn't want to have was me abandoning me. I am not talking about someone physically forcing me to have sex against my will, although there may have been some sort of coersion to it... but more about my own choices to violate myself... to give in, to have sex when I didn't really want to and to try to get better clarity about my own choices about this, because I think my past choices do have some bearing on my current SF issues.

I didn't believe when I read this that Cat's H was forcing her to have SF, although I do believe he may very well have an expectation here about it as amends. I wondered if this is the dance step in their M or has been...

When Cat and Mr. Cat have a disagreement, or when Mr.Cat is angry at Cat, my perception is that Mr. Cat has had an expectation that this is how conflict is resolved. His expectation is that when Cat makes him angry, that her amends is to provide SF for him. This is where the smoothing over comes in. I believe Cat is aware of this dance step, and no longer wants to do this step. I think she bravely owns where she violates herself, when she states that she caved. Just because we gain better awareness of the steps, doesn't mean that we yet will be able to choose differently. 30 years is a long time of having an established pattern of steps that happen in conflict.

Cat's awareness of this may have been present for some time now, but I think her willingness and desire to really do the work to change her own steps is relatively new. Changing the steps can be really scary especially since we cannot predict for sure what the other person's reaction to our step change will be... and then when we change the step... and we don't know what to do, which may happen a lot in the beginning, we might find ourselves reaching back... for what we know, because we feel safer in knowing the outcome.

For me it is the letting go of the outcome piece that is so hard. I believe I have derived a false sense of security in the belief that if I can predict or believe I know what the outcome of my choices will be then I can protect myself.

I am finding that I need to own my own half of not making something safe. Where I have a need to own where I am making a choice to violate myself, and get to the bottom of what the payoff is for me in doing that.

I see Cat and Mr. Cat as equals in their M. I can see Cat's half and Mr. Cat's half. Cat has a choice to not cave into Mr. Cat's expectation for SF that is her half. Mr. Cat has to own that he has this expectation, and where this expectation is abusive to Cat. That is what I see. I believe Cat can see this as well. I perceive her as learning to own her half, her choices, and working toward how to let go of the outcome.

Learning how to take back our own power through our choices... rather than handing it over... I think that it is a lot easier said than done.

Jilly