Cat - As I read some things on your thread, you are a lot like my XW in some ways, maybe many ways. Its actually kind of nice to see, because if things I am doing would appeal to you, that might mean they appeal to her, too.

EOP, if you're trying to win back your ex, Al Turtle has a lot of success with those cases, like TheTallMan here if you want to search for his thread. You can find Al Turtle on his site linked in my sig line.

I think in some cases men don't know what to do with a piece of information like you shared above. It seems like a minefield, and anything they say will be wrong. Your dh seems to not be able to make that stretch to put himself in your shoes, so he can't empathize as you would wish.

I'm assuming that you have asked him many times in the past to either take more of an interest in the house or to hire someone else to do the job? He may have seen your sharing this as an emotional ploy to get him to do this work. Since he didn't want an argument, and he didn't know what to say, he changed the subject.

My dad does this. You can tell him the most personal thing and he just looks at me like "so what you want me to do about it?"

I know you said that there is no money in the budget for lawn care, but perhaps you could segment a little money out of the groceries? Then just hire someone to come in. If your dh complains about gettng beans instead of steak you can say the money for the steak went to mow the lawn because it was becoming a fire hazard.

My dad would never do any home-care on our house, but instead spent all of his free time working on his neighbors houses. Eventually the only way I could get him to fix any thing for us was to casually bring up whatever was broken in conversation while he had a friend over. They would usually tease him, and he'd be forced to fix it. I didn't get in trouble because technically I was telling truth.

Your dad sounds just like my H. He bends over backwards to prove to everyone but me how upstanding and giving and wonderful he is. I've read that people with low self esteem do that.

I was thinking this exact same thing on the way home from work today. The way I worded it, what was he supposed to say? Oh, honey, I'm so sorry for you. Or Now it makes sense and I need to get started on all that stuff.

I set him up for failure by saying it that way. I'm going to apologize tonight for possibly putting him on the spot. Explain that I was just trying to work out my issues.

Of course, Friday, I'm going to let him know that I WILL pick something on our list and get it accomplished. Hopefully, he can assimilate the information and see that helping me will make things better.

He did admit to me once that when we lived at our last house, amidst all the crap about our whole neighborhood thinking he was a child molester, that he buried himself in repair work at our church, because it was the one thing that made him feel good about himself, and because he couldn't face being in our home with all that it symbolized (a war zone, the loss of his respect in the community).

IC told me that I have to make it plain to him, regardless, that I can no longer live like this, with all the things he DOESN'T do for our family. Set that boundary for myself. That's a big one.

Ears, thanks so much for this. I will definitely check out his site (hey...eyes and ears...I chuckled). Winning back my ex will be a long process, we both have healing to do. I just know that we are so strongly connected that for us not to be together when we're healthy would seem like a crime.

Eyes, that last sentence was very nice. Keep that close to you.

Ok, here's some of my thoughts on the last few days' worth of help from you guys.

No he wouldn’t, and yes he would stop. He has absolutely no idea how I feel (thus the purpose of this thread – to teach me to talk to him). I’ve never felt I had the right to say no to sex unless I had a good reason. All buried in my lack of self worth.

I suppose he does consider it make-up sex. The problem is that he always controls the reasons for needing it, he always creates the issues and thus determines when I have to make up. My need here is to get the courage to stop the sick dance we have, so these events no longer happen. My IC told me basically the same thing you all did; that I have to just brave it out, refuse to participate the next time this happens. Even though I know what will happen, that he will get mad and escalate, but that I still have to brave it out, even though it escalates. Yada yada, stay calm, don’t participate, the same pep talk I give all of you, LOL.

I tried to get discussion, but he refused to talk. Acted like a 2 year old. So I’m supposed to either turn over and pretend to go to sleep, knowing he’ll get up and start banging things and cleaning (!) and telling me how it’s all my fault and he ought to just die…, or else get up and go to another room. And let it happen in there. Love my choices.

I hadn’t thought of that. Thank you for pointing it out. I shared it all with IC last night, including what you said, and she changed D17’s next session from a family session (with MrCat, to try to achieve some agreements with him), to a personal one, so she could work on D17’s self esteem issues.

I spent all my teen years being the only person who cleaned our house; I remember scrubbing the disgusting crumbling floors, to no avail; trying to make broken countertops and windowsills and stair banisters look good, despite them all falling apart. Trying to hide from everyone how destitute we were. Combined with what I learned about all that in IC last night, and my being a clean person, and you’re right on the money. Every day of my life is a source of pain because of this house (and the last one and the last one and the last one). There is so much...junk in my life I can barely breathe.

Regarding the mess, the 3-car garage stacked 8 feet high with his crap, the office I can’t see the floor in, the bedroom full of boxes full of stuff he’s never looked at, the kitchen cabinets that should hold glasses and bowls but are half-full of his papers - IC told me that MrCat is ‘stuck’ and I have to be the one to un-stick our family because he can’t. I had an argument tonight with D17 because I went into the room where the cat boxes are (her job) and there’s cat poo all over the carpet in the room because the cat boxes haven’t been cleaned in 4 or 5 days (and I’m the one who cleaned it last). The day after our ‘problem’ she went around and did all kinds of chores, to make up for the email thing and in hopes that I wouldn’t tell dad about it, but since then? Nothing. It’s days like this where I just want to lay down and quit; I’m so overwhelmed and depressed. Realizing what my issue is – the need for at least a half-picked-up house, let alone a clean one, doesn’t make it any easier to deal with, when I live with two people who couldn’t care less if the house is picked up or the mountain of mess is cleared. I feel all alone in a house of 3. And I’m just so very tired. I either do it all myself, I live in a pigsty in misery, or I become superbitch and make them help me.

More later.

I get what you’re saying but we’re so screwed up at this point, we don’t have any UA time, and the only way he’ll do IC is when it’s for D17. He has no friends, and doesn’t want any.

I know I need to, but between needing to finish 3 years of taxes, visit my mother on the weekend, the mountain of work on the house, depression, getting D17 to all the stuff she does, I just don’t have the energy to even care if we do RC.

I’m sorry, but I really don’t understand this paragraph. Can you elaborate?

I will add it to my list, thanks. Right now I’m reading Emotional Alchemy. I forget who recommended it months ago, but I enjoy it very much, so thank you.

I’m sure you’re right. I guess my resentment is setting in, because I’m so overwhelmed I’m having trouble finding enough energy to try. But I get the point. When I’m in a better place, I will work on figuring out where he functions from.

I’ve been numb my entire life, I believe. Out of self-preservation. My earliest memory is of being left alone at the kitchen table while mom, dad and brother went out to play (because I wouldn’t eat my vegetables). My next memory is of taking brother to a special school, because he’s got a genius IQ (and I didn’t), so the family had to make special considerations for him; and then when I asked, my mom telling me ‘don’t worry, just because you’re not as smart as him doesn’t mean you’re stupid. (gee thanks)’ I remember wondering when I got married why I wasn’t feeling anything. Even when D17 was born, I was secretly sad.

I’m afraid of confrontation. Period. I’ve built my whole life around avoiding confrontation. Smoothing things over. There may be resentment there, but it’s buried so far under my depression and numbness I can’t tell.

I’ve told him it makes me scared. I suspect I had issues with abuse from my father, but I will probably never go there. But I’ve told H and he chooses to not hear me. Bottom line, it all boils down to me reaching a point where I can no longer take it.

I make it sound like I’m married to a monster, but that’s not true. He loves me like crazy. Sex is probably as good as it gets for the woman. When he does learn something, he embraces it. But my inability to speak so hampers our progress that it is excrutiatingly slow. I think if H was interested in fixing things and willing to accept that some of the blame may be on his shoulders, we could be getting somewhere. But I'm so bloody tired of being the strong one, the progressive one, I don't know if I have the energy to hold his hand through all this.

Ears,

Okay, I feel a little lost. Any idea where TheTallMan's thread might be? I did a standard search and it didn't really help. Also, for Al Turtle, its a big site. Any ideas on a starting point? Thanks in advance!

Hi Cat,

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about sharing some of your foo history with your dh. We are all different, and something that might not bother one person can bother another person enormously.

You might tell him something like "I'm telling you this so that you can understand why it bothers me so much when X happens (or doesn't happen)."

I just had this happen recently with my dh and I. I've posted a little on here about my dh being very critical of my driving. When we first dated I wouldn't drive him anywhere because I was afraid of being criticized and my father was very critical of everything I did. Gradually, over time I started doing more of the driving. And dh started being the worst back-seat driver you ever saw. He said he'd try and stop, but just kept doing it.

So, I explained about my dad, and how badly his criticisms were hurting me, even though he's not like that about anything else. He really understood what I was saying and was remorseful about having caused me hurt. I responded that he seems very nervous when he's riding in my car with me, and he asked if I'd be willing to drive his truck instead.

Well, we tried that, and amazingly he was happy as a clam. Not nervous, not constantly looking around to make sure that I wasn't ignoring some traffic hazard, not criticizing my driving and giving me orders. Turns out that my car sits very low to the ground and his truck is very high, so it gives him a big sense of security to be able to see things from that angle.

Amazing. I guess it just took us some non-judgemental sharing and some brainstorming to come up with a solution.

Eyes,

Here is a link to The_Tall_Man's thread. This is his long one, but once you have this one you can search his other ones by clicking on his user name.

The_Tall_Man's Thread on Manipulation, Control, and Reality

It is worth the read.

Hope this helps,
Jilly

Jilly - Thanks!

Ears - I think I figured out Al Turtle's site. I'm fascinated by it, and have lots of reading to do. Thankfully, I have the house to myself this weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EOP, I'm glad it helped. I really connected with what I saw there, too. His stuff is so effective at helping me when I'm struggling with hope, that I can see how it would help others, too.

Ears - I'm glad it helps you. I think it will do the same for me.

Cat,

There is a new poster here on EN forum whose story reminds me of you and I am wondering if you might swing by and see if you can help.

Her name is GoingCrazy and here is a link to her thread.

GoingCrazy's thread

Thanks,
Jilly

If he follows you into a room, I would say, DH, I need to be away from you right now. Look at it this way, I did not leave the house. I did not go to a bar to comfort myself. I am just in another room because you are upsetting me. I expect in the future that you will respect this.

There is an exception: If you come to this room wanting to be very kind and speak openly and respectfully about what is going on, I am willing. Otherwise, please respect me and let me sleep.

CP, on several occasions, I left the house when my DH upset me. I am a good girl; usually went to the 24 grocery store or a coffee house. BUT it was awful for DH. We finally had a blowup where I swore I would not walk out on him. But if we were fighting and I could not stand to be near him, I would go to another room... and he would have to respect that. He agreed.

Your DH does not know how lucky he is. You are not the kind of woman to leave the house and drown your sorrows in liquor -- or with another man. I wish he knew how lucky he is.

One similarity I have noticed between you and me is that unlike most of the couples the Harleys deal with, we spend way more than the 15 hours per week with our spouses.

I wonder what the Harleys have to say on this? I'm beginning to think that if you spend more than twenty hours a week together, you begin to get on each others nerves. And you are with a husband similar to mine. No really social friends.

I love having friends, but have none (locally) now, and despite my DH's protests to the contrary, every time I reach out to make friends, I get the cold shoulder from DH. (He then goes into a spastic demonstration of how many friends he has, calling all of his OS friends.)

I am really curious what the Harleys would have to say about the reverse situation we are in.

valentine spice, are you spending 15 hours meeting one another's top ENs? Both of you? I don't hear cat saying that they are spending this time in ways that would meet her top ENs. That this time is actually full of LBs. She's working on her O&H, so she can let her H know what she does and does not want.

Very good question. I think we are spending them the only way our husbands will permit. My DH won't open up to me except on his own terms. Won't smile or have fun unless he wants to. I can meet his ENs to the best of my ability and get the same result from him during our time together. He's grumpy then sweet, grouchy then mean. And always demanding. (Similar to CP's husband, sweet when he wants me to do something for him. I remember one day recently relaxing on the couch with him. He put on a chick flick and started stroking my cheek. I thought, "Oh, no, what does he want now?" He wanted me to go to the store to get him ice cream with the works. Almost wouldn't let me see the end of the movie before demanding (sweetly) that I go. It's tough to get cozy with a man who uses sweetness to gain favors.)

So I guess you could say I attempt to meet my DH's RC needs during those times. I attempt to. He would probably say I fail as he believes I fail at most things I attempt to do.

Does he meet my ENs? No, not usually. I guess that is because I have been in a form of Plan A for a while now. He hasn't read any of the books. My top needs are O&H (he is truthful EXCEPT that he is an avoid trouble liar but he is not very open,) SF (what once was the best in his life is now a woman who is too demanding, too tight and orgasms too many times. I am not permitted to initiate anymore,) Affection (in one area he increased cuddling but hugging/random kisses have all but disappeared. Now cuddling is disappearing too,) Admiration (compliments are rare, insults plentiful,) and Financial Support (he may get laid off.)

I could safely say that my ENs are barely being met if at all. FS for the time being is the only one at a solid ten. My non-top five of RC is kinda being met -- but with a lack of the variety I need.

CP, sorry for the threadjack. I think our situation with ENs is similar. No amount of increasing that time together is going to help if DHs have no interest in meeting our ENs, is it?

How is it going seeking O&H during your times together?

My O&H? It's ok. I've mentioned being on MB a couple of times. Last Sunday when we picked up D17 from a youth conference in another town, I read one of the articles to him from MB. He didn't answer, of course, but I'm assuming he listened.

Today, D17 asked if we could go horseback riding (about an hour drive away from here), MrCat agreed. But when it was time to go, I wasn't moving to go, and he asked if I was going. I said I'd rather stay home and work on taxes (we're 3 years behind). He groused a little, 'whatever you want to do' with some attitude, but by the time they left, he was fine (I think). I've spent most of my life doing whatever he decided we needed to do, because he gripes if I don't. So that is one of my biggest steps to take, to say I don't want to go along with him.

As for the rest, I think the changes I've made toward being nicer to him are starting to pay off, if minutely. Yesterday he dropped something and bent over and picked it up and threw it away. I know that sounds ridiculous to you guys, but in this house it's a big thing. He literally drops his clothes in a line on the floor, as he moves to change clothes; that's how uninterested he is in self care - knows I'm behind him picking up after him. Yesterday I asked him to help me mulch some flower beds, and he actually did come out! He didn't do what I asked, of course - he decided that he needed to fix some drainage issues, and some other things, went on to weed another area. But at least he came out when I asked and did some work on the house.

So I'm being O&H by asking his help and bringing up things I never would have discussed before. I'm getting there.

Cat, that sounds very positive! You stood firm and true to yourself, staying home because you wanted to do something responsible that you would've worried about if you'd gone. You didn't yield to his "change back" grousing.

And he's done some stuff around the house! Even picking something up himself - yes that's huge!

Excellent work on the O&H. Good job.