Good work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I had that one domestic partner that was like your husband. Yes, it would amaze me when he picked up anything, anything at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Addressing O&H topics is a lot harder than I expected it to be, so I can see why it moves slowly.

Hi cat, do you ever step over to the InRecovery board? There are two posters there, dirt35 and FogFree who I think could benefit a lot from your insight and what you share about self-confidence. Would you please take a look?

Well, that was a disaster, eo! (going to FF's thread, I mean) I thought I was saying something that made sense, that was logical, that it would help, but I guess since I don't really spend time over there with BSs I'm not used to having to tread so lightly and realize that the nerves are so raw. I'm an awfully blunt person, so I think I really should stay away from places like that - I'm just not...sensitive enough. But I was in tears last night because of what happened, even now when I think of it I'm bawling again, so I guess I really need to address why I have such a strong need to be needed and helpful and appreciated. Hah, wonder where D17 gets that?

I have IC today, and I can already tell it's going to be a crying fest.

Anyhoo, I just came here to tell y'all that D17 is going to be at church all weekend for a famine thing, so I called H last night and told him we should go dancing Saturday night. He loves it, but I've pulled away so much, I've stopped doing anything like that with him, because I feel too vulnerable; but I know I have to start making attempts to give him back what he's been missing. He was pleasantly surprised. And this morning, he gave me a nice 20-minute massage before we got out of bed - with no SF!

And then, as we were getting ready, I told him that I was going to get the house organized because I'm going to start hiring a cleaning service (one of his no-no's). I told him that I think the reason no one came to our annual New Year's party this year is because our house is so filthy (it is). He didn't say anything, but he didn't say no. So, baby steps.

Good for you! Sometimes you have to start living the way you want your life to be...at some point you can't POJA the cleaning of your house if he doesn't want to do it and forbids a cleaning service.

As far as the dancing...sometimes you have to "fake it until you make it", that is, do the RC activities until you get more love bank deposits and you start to feel it.

CP, there is a new book out called, "Why Do I Keep Doing That? Why Do I Keep Doing That? Breaking Negative Patterns in Your Life." I am reading it. Even though it's a little too cursory, I'm learning a LOT about myself. That I am repeating mistakes in many areas of my life. There are tips on how to really break those patterns.

Ears, I know this topic, I just noticed that you and your H have the same age difference as my ex and I (I'm 46, she's 30). I'm curious as to how you regard him with the age difference at this point in time as compared to how you did when you first met. It may help me in my situation. You can respond here or over on my "How to Rebuild from Scratch" or "A New Chapter Opening" thread in After Divorce.

Thanks!

All, I'm leaving in about 30 minutes for IC, and I was wondering, if anyone's lurking, if you can help me pinpoint what's going on with me, so I don't waste the hour. I'm married to a man who obviously loves me to death, has no intention of leaving me or cheating on me, wants to buy me things, extremely romantic and great in SF, has an amazing mind and the potential to be a great person in business if his insecurities would allow him (keeps sabotaging himself). We live in an amazing house on the 'rich' street', 4500 sq ft, 3 cars, 3 time shares, if I say I want a new cat or piece of furniture or whatever, he just says fine, or goes out and buys it for me. He would move heaven and earth for D17.

You all know the issues I have, he can't be questioned because of his self-esteem, etc., he won't deal with things, he has a mother anger issue he lays on me, stuff like that, ALL of which would be solved if I would just set boundaries and speak out loud, but I'm afraid to.

So why do I feel so warped? Why do I just want to lay down and sleep and not get up? To walk away and have no responsibilities to anyone? To just be alone? I should be glad I have so much to be thankful for, and that just makes me feel more guilty for not being thankful. I go home every day and I'm so overwhelmed I don't do anything, and just want to sleep (but I don't; I come on here, piddle around the house, attend to family). I'm so tired of trying to get D17 to care about the house and help me without me having to ask/tell her. I gave up on H doing it. I carry this bag of papers and mail and stuff back and forth to work every day, thinking I'll get around to taking care of it all, never do, fix something and just add more each day to the bag. When I need to schedule a vacation or whatever, it takes me 2 or 3 months to get around to it. Same with everything. I'm just so tired of everything seeming like so much work, and I'm tired of seeing everyone around me seem to be ok with their lives and wondering what's wrong with me.

I guess it's just a depression that's making me so giddy and rudderless and feeling pointless? But then I feel like I have no reason to be depressed when I have so much to be thankful for. Do I really want to go through with the rigamorole of finding a dr to get ADs from and visit them all the time, all that mess? Will it make a difference?

Any insight out there?

Real depression is a medical condition and you can't wish yourself well any more than a diabetic can wish themselves well. If you have true medical depression and not just sadness, antidepressents will be a tremendous help to you. You need to see a doctor to know for sure. Best of luck. By the way, you are not warped, you sound like you may be depressed.

You sound like how I've been feeling lately.

I hope it's not too late before your session, but it probably is depending on your time zone.
I wonder if you're feeling down because in your mind you told yourself you'd wait until your D was 18 and then reeavluate, and you still feel like you're not getting your ENs met.

I think that because of your past, you're afraid of standing up for yourself, and maybe you need to heal from that before you are able to see that you're an adult now and you have power. You're not that kid anymore.

I know it's hard when your H acts like your father or your mother, it takes you back to that place of feeling like a child.

I think it's also this time of year. Almost everyone I know is complaining about being tired all the time, feeling down, not getting anything done, wanting to sleep constantly. I think we just need spring to get here, to be in the light and smell the flowers and hear the birds sing again!

As you know, I have a chronic illness. When I have a better day, I sometimes berate myself. I can function, why didn't I get anything done yesterday? I am fine, why did I think I was a cripple yesterday?

When you are having a slightly better day, you can question yourself. Do I really need this counseling? Look how good I've got it. But, CP, you have very bad, scary days. Sometimes I get very worried for you. Please keep going.

When you have worked through this pain, you may very well be the happy, content woman you described in your post. Please don't rush it. (((( Hugs ))))

Cat, I think living with a negative man has a toll, and I don't think there's anything wrong with you that it distorts your own perspective. Have you ever read any of Iyanla Vanzant's books? She says that she is very careful choosing her friends because we take on the attitudes of those who we are around the most. Who can you spend time with who makes you feel great?

(((Cat)))

I was thinking about both you and Ears yesterday. I had to go back to what happened on the recovery board and try to ascertain what happened there and since some of your posts there had been deleted (I get why you deleted them) it took me a few minutes to piece together what had been said that caused such an uproar on that thread. Ummmm... the dreaded "gift" of infidelity analogy. Please know you are not the first person to use the gift notion.

Other people who have used the word "gift" have been chewed up and spit out... had their [censored] handed back to them in a sling for it. For many BS's it is very difficult especially early on to think of their spouses cheating as a gift. When you are early in the stages of discovery, when you can't get out of bed, can't eat, can't sleep, and in some cases feeling like you don't want to go on... hard to see the affair as a gift. I think shortly after my own D-day and becoming a BS ( and yes, my own recovery process has been different because of the circumstance of my current marriage which began as an affair... yep, I got to find out the hard way EXACTLY what my own horrible choices effect were for the others. And there are still many people who would say I got what I deserved... and I can't really disagree with them Cat, seems becoming the BS is what it took for me to finally GET what I myself had done, but that didn't lessen the pain of my DH's choice to have an affair. I was (although there are those that think I should have anticipated it... I didn't. The idea that if they'll cheat with you they'll cheat on you... NOPE didn't see that one coming.)

What I am getting at is that although maybe I shouldn't have been surprised that infidelity occurred in second M, I was. I will share with you a bit of how I view the process of recovering an M after an A.

To me the analogy that works for me... is that of a very serious car accident. Say the BS is driving their car along and they sort of start to have a feeling that something might be wrong with their car (the marriage). The BS mentions to the WS... that they have a feeling something is wrong with their car and the WS tells them no it is all in your head, that your car is just fine. You start to think, well, maybe there really isn't anything wrong with my car, it is just getting older and maybe all the stuff that seem wrong with the car are just signs the car is getting older.

But that nagging feeling doesn't go away. Then one day the WS and the BS are driving along and another car barrels out in front of them... the WS (who happens to be driving) slams on the brakes... only to find the brakes are completely shot and they hit the other car going 70 MPH. It is a head on collision. The BS is severely injured in the accident... the WS spouse is also injured but their injuries are not as life threatening. You are both taken to the hospital and you are hooked up to a life support machine. (This is what D-day is like... a head on collision.) The car is nearly if not completely totaled. The OP and their BS were in the other car that you hit head on. The OP was driving their car and their own BS had also had a nagging sense that something was wrong with their car as well. The other BS has heard the same pooh-poohing that the car is fine... it is in their head. The other BS is on life support as well. The other WS is also injured. Their car is in pretty bad shape as well.

Meanwhile the insurance adjuster (attorney, other friends or family members etc.) shows up and tells you they are trying to determine whether or not to total the cars or to send them to the auto body repair shops for a complete overhaul. He isn't sure whether they can fix either car of both cars will have to be totaled and new cars will have to be purchased. Either way, if the cars are totaled or new cars will have to be purchased, because neither of the cars were new... it is going to cost you a lot out of pocket to replace or repair the cars.


Subsequently, both BS spends time in the hospital, unclear if they will actually survive or not initially. Slowly over time, the BS's begins to make some progress. You can now get out of bed... start to walk, eat, etc. They are transferred to different rehab. facilities.

Both of the BS's at this point have shared while in the hospital with each other that they each had this nagging sense that there was something wrong with their cars but had been told it was nothing. And now here they both are in the hospital with massive injuries. They aren't mad yet... they are still in a state of shock and wondering if they will make a full recovery. They have yet to fully realize that both of the WS's were taking these cars out and drag racing them. Both of the WS's were harming the cars on a regular basis and they didn't do anything to repair any of the damage they were causing to the car... because all they could think about was the excitement they felt while they were racing.

The BS's had NO idea the cars were being recklessly raced time after time, and that the brakes on both of these cars were being damaged with each race. The WS's are thinking... well the cars are both still running so they're alright. They may complain to the other WS about how much they DESERVE (entitlement) a new car. They commiserate (blame the BS's etc.) about how long they have been stuck with these cars and blah, blah, blah, how the car just isn't like it was when they bought it. It is possible that the BS's have also had feelings of disappointment about the car as well. However the BS's have not chosen to drag race the car unknowingly to the WS.

They may have known the car had some problems... remember they have noticed something seems off with the cars. They may have even mentioned they believe the car needs maintenance. The BS may have also not chosen to do any maintenance on the car, but they have NOT chosen to do things that they know will harm the car worse. IN other words they might not have had some of the work done on the car; they for sure have NOT been drag racing knowing THAT would surely damage the car possibly beyond repair.

While they are still hooked up to life support they are told that the WS's have been drag racing. They are shocked to learn this. They are devastated to learn that their WS's would be so reckless... putting the cars and their own lives in such risk. At first they may not even be angry. The shock and despair of learning about the racing is overwhelming and they are so focused on survival at this point they aren't yet able to focus on the mangled car.

The WS's have been treated for what appear to be minor injuries. They sat in the waiting rooms. They may or may not be consumed with a feeling of guilt and shame knowing that their racing has nearly killed their BS's. They are still in the fog over the fun they were having racing the cars. The doctors overhear them in the waiting room and are blown away by the lack of respect and concern either of the WS's seem to have for their broken BS's. The doctors (MC, MB, Friends of the M etc.) have seen this kind of car accident before. They know leaving the BS's together in the same hospital for the long term recovery, with their WS's sitting out in the waiting room is not the solution for any of these patients to recover makes the decision to go into to BS's separate hospital rooms. He asks the WS's of each couple to join him as he discuss the recovery treatment options for the BS.

The doctor tells the couples under NO circumstance will the BS ever be able to recover if the WS's sit out in the waiting room together. They MUST be transferred to different hospitals for long term rehabilitation. He tells the WS under no circumstance should they EVER talk to the other WS again. Their reckless driving is what put their BS in the hospital and if the BS is to make progress in rehab. that the WS must make a choice. The choice is to either commit to assist in the BS recovery or to sever all ties to the BS so that they can attempt to recover solo. If their choice is to try to work through the recovery with the BS they can never speak to the OP who they recklessly raced with. Even if the car can be repaired, any future drag racing will so further damage the mangled car, it will make the chance of ever repairing the car virtually impossible.

The doctor also asks the BS if they want the WS to support the effort of their rehab. or the car repair. At this point some BS's decide yes, they want the WS still and they want to try to repair the car. Some BS's decide NO way. Knowing the WS was so incredibly reckless they don't want any part of the WS in either their personal rehab. and they don't want to repair the car. They want to scrap the car and never look back.

In this case, you the BS and your WS make the decision to try to fix the car and rehab. the BS. The doctor tells them they must notify the OP that they will never speak to them again. The BS has no problem with the notion of NC. The WS may have some mixed emotions about it. Although the WS may have decided that they do in fact want to try to fix the car and support the BS's rehab. the WS may still have some lingering feelings about how much "fun" the racing had been. Not exactly easy for the BS to swallow since they still having some pretty serious injuries.

SO they transfer out. They notify the OP of NC. They begin the process of personal rehab. as well as working with the car repair shop (MC) on the huge task of step by step, piece by piece, repairing each part of the mangled car.

They go through this process for awhile... say 6-8 months. The BS has felt grateful that the WS has decided to work on the car. The process is a lot of work. Both the BS and the WS have had moments of excitement as parts of the car begin to look better. Then suddenly... and perhaps without warning the BS, who had up to this point mostly felt gratitude, is hit with the knowledge that the racing itself is what caused the most collateral damage to the car. They hit a wall in recovery. The anger that has been buried under other emotions of sadness, relief, terror, etc. swells up in them and has taken the front seat.

The anger consumes the BS and the anger is directed at the WS for putting their car and them in this position. Kinda hard to look at the infidelity as a gift. It may appear that all the work they have done so far was just a band aid and some duct tape. The BS might be surprised themself about the degree to which the anger has swelled. They may have thought the anger wasn't there before so why now? The truth is the anger was always there. Might have been below the surface of the fear, but it was there. This is probably the most difficult part of the recovery process because now the BS may be questioning their own choice to try to repair the car at all.

The WS's response to the anger is also relevant. If they don't appear to feel remorseful about the racing, accept that the racing caused that much damage to the car... that they not only gaslighted the BS into believing the car's brakes were okay when they knew full well they had been racing and damaging the brakes with little or no regard for the damage it was causing. If the WS doesn't take culpability for their destruction this will greatly hinder any chance of moving past this stage. This stage may be where the BS decides to chuck any further attempts to repair the car. If the WS doesn't own their choices here even if the BS choices to stay anyway... the repair will remain stalled. The car may be running at this point but if no serious work is done here, the car remains at risk for future breakdowns and accidents.

If the couple has taken their car to a really good repair shop (MC) the repairman has seen this many times before and knows what tools he must use to help the couple get through this stage of anger. An inexperienced or not very good repairman may have little success in helping the couple through this stage because they don't have the necessary tools to work on the problem.

If the couple is able to get passed this stage of anger in recovery... they believe the car is worth repairing, and are willing to continue with the repairs, the chances are good that the car and both parties will recover.

Depending on how much repressed anger is there, will also determine how long this stage may take. The WS may also feel like giving up here too. The WS may begin to believe that nothing they do will ever be enough to repair the damage they have done. The WS may also decide they no longer wish to try to repair the car at this point.

To me, this stage is very critical in the recovery process. If the couple stays together and does not get through this stage... their M is still a really painful or not so great place to be, or if they choose to divorce at this point it is going to be really hard to see any gift in this.

If and when the couple does get past this stage... they get to the heart of the issues before the racing, before the accident, this may be when either member of the couple may choose to see the accident as a gift. I can very much understand why many do NOT see it this way. I can see and I am sure you can as well, where many BS's might feel like the repairs could have been done without the racing or the accident. In other words there is NO seeing the affair as a gift. There are some people though, that at this point take a different perspective... they choose to believe this is what it had to take for either one of them to really be willing to work on the marriage. In these cases some couples may view the affair as a turning point in their marriage. The point where they believe the M after an overhaul is a much closer and more fulfilling one. But getting to this point takes a long time in the recovery process... and even then it may be a very bitter pill to swallow or see the infidelity as a gift.

I am sorry you were attacked for sharing what you might have seen on the recovery board or elsewhere here... that many people's M's are in better shape post infidelity than they were prior to it. For me, my DH's affair was what it took for us... and granted it was not something I would wish on my worst enemy. My own recovery process is different than others because we had the stain of prior infidelity taken all the way into an affair marriage to deal with on top of it. I got the added shame and guilt of knowing my own choices were NO gift to my H's XW or my own XH. They were innocent victims.

In my case being on the receiving end of infidelity was what it took for me to really GET what I had done.

Recently when my DH was home sick with DD also sick with the flu... made a call to me on my cell phone when I was later than usual getting home from work. DH was feeling especially vulnerable because he wasn't feeling well and he shared later when I got home that his fear was really high. Fear that I might meet someone else, choose to leave our M. The floodgates of his own remorse over his choices flew open and I could see how much he is still hurting over his own shame and guilt about his choices to commit adultery.

And this is what I shared with DH then. I shared with him that I am not now nor will I ever choose to go outside our M to get my needs met... that the fear that this could happen on both of our parts is just one of the many consequences that are a part of being in an affair based marriage. Since the foundation was originally based in lies and deception that some fear will probably always remain that IT could happen again. Does this mean that we spend every minute for the rest of our lives constantly living in a state of paranoia? No... that would be very unhealthy. But it would be just as unhealthy to stuff those fears and pretend they don't exist for either of us.

We have to keep working at our recovery. We choose to continue to work at it.

You didn't do anything wrong... you stated your opinion about the concept of a gift. Others can and will disagree. Doesn't make your opinion any less valid. Doesn't make their opinion about it any less valid either. I think perhaps the attacking comes from some people's belief that you cannot possibly understand how painful it is to be a BS. While it is true that you do not know what it feels like to be a BS... doesn't mean you don't have any understanding of what it feels like to be in a depressed state about the state of your own M.

I think you are very clear on what that feels like. I also wonder if there is a part of you that feels like your M needs to hit a crisis in order for your own H to get on board and work to improve your M. I know you mentioned before that a part of you wishes that your H would have an A so that you would feel justified in leaving your M. Cat, I promise you... you don't want this, but I can understand your desire for you H to wake-up and realize how unhappy you really are about the state of your own M.

I have heard a few people (not very many) people who have stated that they were relieved to find out their partner was cheating because then they felt they could leave the M without having to feel remorse about their choice to do so. I think this might be what is termed an exit affair. Cat, even if your M ends at some point (and I really do believe that based on the huge changes you have made... that your own M is going to thrive sooner than later) that an A on the part of your H will leave you a lot more harmed than you may think.

What I have learned here... is that wherever you go there YOU are. Even if you were to get a divorce from Mr. Cat both of you would still have all of the unresolved FOO issues that you would carry into any future relationships. 30 years... Cat, that is not something to end without a huge fight to save. I strongly believe that the changes you are choosing to make, the work you are choosing to do on yourself, the dance steps you are working on your end to change... will result in an impact to your M that will be profound. Might not seem like you can see the light yet. I do believe there is light Cat, I really, really do.

I also hope that you will not be hesitant in the future to post your own beliefs, even when the differ from others, and even if people call you out on those, attack you, that your presence here is very valued and your insight and wisdom as someone who has been in a 30 year marriage are a huge contribution here.

Yes, there are many marriages here that are plagued with infidelity, but there are also many here that aren't. There are plenty of folks here whose marriages are riddled with issues that have nothing to do with infidelity and those people want to improve their M's too. You don't have to have a crisis to have an M that is in trouble.

What I see here are lots of different kinds of M's. M's that have infidelity in many different stages of recovery or a different kind of personal recovery... if the M is not recovered. I see first M's with other issues. I see second M's with lots of different kinds of baggage. I see people who didn't recover a first M that was hit with infidelity only to find they are again unhappy in a future M. There are even people here in third and fourth M's. I don't know what the answers are Cat, but what I do see is a whole host of different situations, and a bunch of people who are here asking for help and supporting others in their own marital and personal journeys towards some kind of healing.

I have never once found myself questioning your intent Cat... when you post something my belief is that your post was given to try to help... not harm. You cannot control how others will react to what you post. You know that already. The best you can do here when someone states you hurt their feelings or disagrees with you is to say you're sorry. I have seen nothing but grace on your end... grace and ownership in the acknowledgement that you can accept why someone else might have taken offense to something you said.

My own fear and I own that it is mine is that this attack will lead you to refrain from sharing where your insight is valuable. Where you will hold back... with a sense of self doubt about what you have to share. I really hope this will not be the case. I may not always agree with everything you say but I sure do respect and admire your willingness to share here. And I know I am NOT alone in my belief that you are an important member of this community.

((((Cat))))

I really hope that you know how very much you are worth.

Jilly

Thank you for your help, everyone. I wonder if I would have gotten so trashed if I had just used the word opportunity and rephrased the sentence? I was going to, but thought the word I used made more sense. Obviously I was not in a frame of mind to be posting that day. I didn't mind the upset over the word so much as the people afterward who patted me on the head and said 'don't worry, just think more, next time.' I may be too blunt when I write, but I am intentionally, usually, because usually no one else is. And I have a lot more knowledge of people and human nature and logic than many people here; so it grates to be told I'm simply dumber than them. So I'm wondering if I'm just too caustic and blunt to be here; maybe this place is - and should be - more about hand-holding and commiserating. I certainly know that I need it a lot.

Today is going to be better for me. Yesterday was filled with many passive/agressive snipes from H, and I found I simply don't know how to react to them, in any way that gets him to see what he's doing, or in a way that lets me not be affected. I think I'll have to work on that, specifically.

Hi, cat, this is a GREAT link that I got from Mulan's sig line. Really helpful dealing with the passive-agressive behaviors. There's an awesome PA thread in her sig line, too, when you feel stronger.

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

Last night, I had that problem with DH. He was asking questions like, "What did you do today?" "When are you starting that project?" He was barking the questions like a commander.

I had to point out to him that it was his tone that was bothering me. He said, "What?! I'm not asking anything wrong!" Same tone.

I looked at him and said, "If I used the tone you use with me with you, you'd think I was a b****." He got it. A bit.

I've always appreciated your point of view CP. I was surprised how the other posters couldn't just let a mistake go. It was obviously a trigger point for a lot of posters. But they didn't have to keep pounding the hammer long after you got the point. I found that strange.

Cat,

I dunno if it would have made a difference if you changed the word to opportunity... I really don't. Please know that what they did to you they will do to others. It was NOT about you.

My post to you here was not intended to make you feel worse and I hope it did not. I do NOT think you are dumb or insensitive. There are lots of other posters here (maybe more on the Infidelity board section of MB) that are straight shooters Cat.

Some of the same posters who came after you have no problem being BLUNT with other posters over there. Go over and read the SAME thread. Some offered up a different opinion and is getting the chewed up for it right now. I am actually surprised you got called on for being blunt, Cat, especially by some of the people that went after you considering that they are usually pretty blunt, and if anyone calls them out for anything they strongly defend their right to say whatever they want HOWEVER they want. Good grief that is what I call pot kettling.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't believe this was about YOU at all. If they can't get at the original "gift" idea poster because that poster has pretty much stopped posting... well then anyone who says anything that remotely reminds them of something that poster might say is at risk for attack. Cat know that there are a many people who communicate off this board by way of email. There are some that do the IM chat, and a select group that belong to another private board.

There are several locked threads over on GQ about my very existence on MB. Ever wonder why you don't see me posting very often on GQ? Use the search feature and search for any of the following threads... The treatment of justjilly on MB, JustJillyBeginAgain (you have to go to about page 18-20 of that 50 pg. thread to get see where that thread turns south) or Affair Marriage... The hill I must die on.

Remember the Salem Witch Trials... well that about sums up a lot of my experience on GQ. Anyone who was willing to risk trying to help me sort things out, well they were guilty by association and attacked for posting to me. This went on for months and months.

A special term was coined to describe my kind of marriage... "affairage". The Karma Bus had arrived and I got what I had coming to me. I can't really argue that point at all... since that is what it took for me to get it.

And there were those that decided for me what my restitution to my victims should be. Some believed that the only way I could truly show remorse was to divorce my current H.

Some believed I should try to return to my first husband after some 11 years at the time. He had been remarried and divorced again. About a year or two before I joined MB I learned that my XH had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He was alcoholic when we were married. He later became addicted to meth, sometime either before or during his second M. He was eventually arrested and jailed for a short time. At some point he entered a rehab. treatment facility for his meth addiction. It was after that time that he was eventually diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic. I was told here by one poster that my affair may very well have been the cause of his schizophrenia.

This is how I learned about gaslighting. When I began to question if it was possible that I in fact could have been responsible for his mental illness... even when I knew that he had a family history of this, even when I knew that chronic meth use can cause a meth induced form of schizophrenia... even when in retrospect I could look back at the time we were together, and realize that there were signs even then... early signs of paranoia, things that I dismissed then, chalked up to him having an eccentric personality.

I was 19 when I got together with my XH. We married when I was 25 and divorced when I was 26. I didn't know much about alcoholism then, had no idea alcoholics can and do go on what is termed "good" behavior. Had no clue what a dry drunk was. I knew even less about mental illness. We did not have any children together.

I don't say this to justify my choice to cheat on him. There is NO justification for that. It was wrong PERIOD.

I say this because I honestly could not believe that people would suggest that I get back together with him.

And my H's XW, well she had an A with a married coworker, got pregnant and had an OC. His marriage ended but she did not remain in a relationship with him. About 2 years ago, she began another A with a MM and she is now in the process of moving in with him. My DH has one child with her who lives with us.

I got really confused about what was mine to own and what wasn't. Was it mine to own that she had two A's because of me? People had a hard time believing that my H, his XW, and I have maintained a fairly close relationship. I can get why people would think that she would hate me... but for she doesn't. I have apologized to her numerous times over the years for our A as has my DH. She has told me many times over the years that she wanted to divorce my H prior to our A, and that the A was her ticket out of the M. There are people here that don't believe me about that either.

I dunno Cat, she has every reason in the world to hate me and to blame me for the demise of her M. She could hate me and it would make perfect sense to me. She could have been happy when she found out DH was cheating on me. She wasn't. She was a strong supporter of us trying to stay together and work it out. Perhaps it is because she is wayward herself. Perhaps if DH and I were to split up it would ruin her fantasy that an affair marriage can survive. Maybe she needs us to stay together in order to retain hope that her R with her AP (who is now D'd from his BW) will make it. I really don't know.

A little background about my H and his XW. Before my H and his XW got together they had both been in LTR's with other people. My DH's XGF repeatedly cheated on him. The last straw for him was when she slept with one of his good friends.

He met his XW about a month after he and his XGF broke up. About six weeks after they met, she was pregnant. A few months later they got married. A few months after that they both graduated from college. Neither one of them had a decent job and they had almost no money and a new baby. When DSS was a couple of months old they moved back to DH's hometown (where we all currently live) and his parents helped them financially. My DH's dad was able to pull some strings and get him a full time teaching position even though he did not possess a teaching credential at the time. So DH taught full time and went to college at night to complete his teaching credential. His XW worked part time at a low paying job on the nights that DH wasn't at school. A year later DH's XW began subbing and going to school at night to get her teaching credential. This is around the time I met DH.

I knew very little about the conditions that put people at risk for having an A. I had never cheated on anyone in my life and I honestly did not think I was the kind of person who would cheat. All it took was a huge sense of entitlement, a bona fide lack of respect, and an obvious lack of any decent boundaries in an M.

When I began to develop a crush on my H... then, the smart thing would have been to stop spending time with him, instead of spending more time with him commiserating about the problems in each of our M's... which of course like most classic waywards we magnified so that we could continue to justify our behavior. Yuck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And just because I didn't cheat in my current M did not make me unwayward. My DH and I were about as wayward as they come. I think the only clue I caught after my A, was about this particular boundary in an M... not because I understood anything about waywardness really either... only that I think I could connect the dots from A to B = C. I guess my DH didn't get that memo the first time around because when he found himself in a pretty similar situation in our M, with a female coworker opening up to him about her marital problems... he didn't get that he was treading in dangerous waters.

It isn't like our M was in good shape. How could it be... it was based on a foundation of lies and deceit? It came from both of us having some false belief that happiness is derived from another person. The notion that if you are unhappy that you just replace the person you are with with someone who holds the possibility of your happiness. What a load of crap that is.

It took me a long time here to get that I should NOT have been surprised when my DH began another A in our M. If you don't look at the conditions that led to an A, you don't realize there are good reasons to develop marital boundaries that follow the belief that it is not a good idea to have friends of the opposite sex that you confide in about your M. I was shocked when discovered my DH was cheating. I don't know why I was shocked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It makes sense to me now why he made that choice. I don't have to like it for it to make sense to me.

It wasn't as if I was meeting his EN's. Crimeny, I don't even think I knew what his EN's were. Then along comes the FOW in our situation, stroking DH's ego, giving him plenty of admiration and affection... with no developed sense of boundaries there really isn't any wonder about how it happened again. If you believe happiness comes externally from another person, and you feel entitled to be happy at any cost, then it follows that he would be attracted to the person who was stroking his ego... and it sure wasn't me.

So this is how I wound up here at MB about a month after my own D-day. I was a royal mess. And there wasn't a whole lot of hand holding for me here in the beginning either. And it isn't like I can't understand how I represent the worst case scenario... where the WS marries the OP.

What I learned when I got here... was just how "unspecial" I was. All the stupid soul mate crap I had believed for so long... well turns out it that is just typical wayward fog babble. People did not feel sorry for me they felt sorry for our kids. I was such an emotional wreck when I got here... still wayward and full of entitlement... still justifying my own affair and feeling much like the victim of my H's A. But it took what it took for me to really get the collateral damage.

It took me some time to get the difference between someone telling me the truth and picking on me. And it took me awhile to realize that my choices were mine... no one made me do anything. My A with my DH didn't just "happen". We chose our way into it one bad choice after another. And that it wasn't up to anyone here to decide whether or not my M was worth saving or not. Other people are entitled to their opinions about what they believe I should do. Other people are entitled to their belief that my M will never be a "real" M. That one person's belief about something doesn't make it "the" truth, that it makes it "their" truth.

Some people here gently guided me to look deeper and find both a higher power and my own power. FH and LA took some pretty hard hits for trying to assist me. They were told that they were supporters of affair marriage. There were countless debates about where or if I should be posting here at MB. The debate then became less about whether I had a "right" to post here and more about where I should be posting that would harm newly BS's less. I had a dog in that fight for a long time until I just pretty much was worn down to the point that I basically didn't have it in me anymore to fight against what that group of posters wanted. Eventually that battle zone thread was locked at the request of the person who originally started the thread for me. Several new threads were created for me in other forums outside of the Infidelity board, and especially GQ. here on MB. This was around April of last year. I continued to post some until the summer and then I took a MB posting hiatus for about 6 months.

I didn't begin posting again regularly until December. In the time I was not choosing to post... I still read. I read and I read and I read. Current threads, old threads, archived threads. And I learned a lot watching board wars. I witnessed how posters were targeted and attacked Cat and I learned people who will attack... who go that route aren't that picky about whom they'll choose to go after. Anyone is fair game and can become the target du jour. I saw where they went after their own... anyone who stepped out of the lock step lines. And where the troops came in with strategic support to discredit other posters.

I felt like I was taking a course in Subtext and Gaslighting 101. The infamous line of "Oh, I couldn't possibly know what you are talking about." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />Took me awhile to put together what caused an attack. An attack occurs anytime someone ventures out with an opinion that is different, anytime someone offers up any advice that doesn't align with a select group of posters' interpretation of the Harley materials. When I see long time posters who have been here many years, coached with the Harleys and then are told that they should not be advising anyone because there own marital recoveries are a sham... it just blows me away. How on earth does anyone here have the ability to determine whose M's are recovered and whose aren't. How can someone who has is unmarried who has chosen to end their relationship... determine under what conditions someone else's marriage is or is not okay. The only people capable of deciding who should continue in an M are the two people in that M. No one else knows what is or is not a livable or satisfying M for someone else. Just because some people's opinion might be that they wouldn't want THAT M doesn't mean the person whose M it is shouldn't have the ability to decide for themself.

It is one thing for someone to state an opinion that they wouldn't be okay with the conditions of someone else's M. Fine share your opinion but when you start berating another poster's choice to stay, I dunno it borders on abusive to me.

When I see people getting handed their [censored] in a sling for making apparent mistakes in their Plan A or Plan B or Plan D or Plan FU, I just keep thinking to myself yes, the people who are doling out the advice have been here a long time, they can foresee the pitfalls of these kinds of mistakes, but what I have a hard time swallowing is when they lose their sense of compassion for anyone who doesn't follow their advice to the T. When the barrage of DJ's start flying around and the poster is then told that they have just blown their chance of recovering their M, I am left wondering exactly HOW is this helpful? We are talking about humans being. People in different and varying degrees of shock, horror, disgust, anger, devastation, upheaval, fear, and a whole lot of pain.

While I strongly believe that Harley's plan for surviving an A... his conceptual Plans A and B make a whole lot of sense... I have also heard that when people counsel with the Harley's that sometimes the plans are altered slightly to meet that particular person's specific situation. It would be great if every person here could afford to counsel one on one with the Harleys but unfortunately there are people who just cannot afford that. Posters here no matter how much understanding they have of the Harley materials are NOT trained therapists and the advice they give is just that advice.

I often wonder why when you read the Harley materials, when you read what others who have shared what they have learned from counseling with the Harleys... why I don't ever hear about the Harleys using DJ's when counseling people. When I emailed Dr.Harley himself about my own situation I can tell you there was not one DJ about me, my DH or our affair driven marriage. He was radically honest with me about what it would take to recover my M, and specifically which of the concepts that seem to be the hardest for those in affair driven marriage to get into place. He didn't tell me there is NO hope that your marriage can be recovered. He did tell me if my DH and I were willing to do what he suggested that we in fact did have a chance of saving our M.

I don't know why Dr. Harley has chosen to assist those in affair driven marriage. He shared in his one post here to the public board that his success rate with those marriages has not been very high, yet for whatever reason, he still tries to help. He hasn't given up yet. He must have a reason for trying even if I don't know what that reason is.

Well, I have veered far off the point I was originally trying to make here Cat. My point was that you were attacked for sharing your opinion. Others came after you because they didn't agree with your word choice or for some other reason I could be very unclear about. What I wanted you to KNOW is that you were singled out and I don't think the singling out really had anything to do with YOU. You are bright and know a lot about a lot of things. You bring a lot here and your posting style is your own. You speak your truth honestly. You trust other people to be able to handle what you tell them. I don't see anywhere where your posts are just an onslaught of DJ's intended to hurt another poster's feelings.

Yes, Cat, sometimes people can feel reactionary to stuff other people say to them here but that doesn't mean that was said had some sort of malicious thought behind it... at least that is not what I see in you at ALL.

I think you do a great job of offering clueX4's which are quite different then bashing someone over the head with a baseball bat when they just don't seem to "get" it.

And I am fearful that this very post... here to you will put me at risk for an attack for stating my beliefs about what I have seen here in terms of board wars, gaslighting, subtexting, and blatant DJ's and harshly wielded 2x4's that appear to have no other intent than to make the poster in question feel bad. I am not talking the strategically placed 2x4 that is given to try to help someone really get something. I am sorry that you were the target of a public stoning Cat, I really am, but I truly hope it will not deter you from posting the same honest way you always have.

What if balance has to do with both Cat? I think there is room for both.

What I don't think is needed is out and out fighting amongst members for what appears to be just the sake of "winning" an argument and somehow proving they are right and the other person is just wrong, because I just don't find this kind of board war particularly helpful to anyone.

And please remember (I know you already know this) how powerful someone else becomes here has a lot to do with how much of our own power we are willing to hand over to them. I applaud you for you choice today to reclaim your own power.

Jilly

Thank you. I have saved it and will read it when I have more time.

Boy do I know about that tone. With MrCat it's also looks. Rolling eyes, sneer, and sighs. OMG, the sighs! And when you say anything, they just go, 'what? I'm not doing anything.' grrrr

jilly, thank you for the insight. It makes a big difference. I wonder whether I shouldn't have apologized and deleted, which made me more...target-worthy. I don't know. And at this point, I don't care to worry about it any more. The only thing that happens, at least for me, is it makes me have less respect for the people who felt qualified to cut me down. Their loss.

I wonder why ff is not getting raked over the coals as much as you were. Is it because her H is already here and people like him and feel for him, and you didn't have her support system? Just know that I respect you a lot! Your advice is always spot on, and I love you for it. So take that, you know who you are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One thing that you pointed out really struck me, something I, too, noticed. That Dr. Harley himself et al. is willing to bend the stated 'rules' when needed, and is willing to help people who so many say are unredeemable. One thing I don't tolerate well is intolerance, LOL, so when people have such hard and fast intolerance, it turns me off. I hope I never get that way, that I never find myself turning away from people just because they don't follow my line. btw, if I do that here, you guys feel free to let me know.

Anyway, thanks very much.