{{{ cat }}}

I wrote you a message but I put it on my thread.


Hear, hear.

That's why I don't venture into those waters very often - I "stick to the rivers and lakes" that I'm used to.

*sigh*

I see Ears is now the target de jour.

Helps to remind ourselves we are all at risk to be targeted. If you aren't lock step, you are at risk.

Ugh...

Jilly

Oh, Jilly, hon, I understand your concern. But you're among friends. I do think that the EN board is a safe place.

And thanks for bumping cat's thread! Cat, I need a dose of inspiration! Tell me what you did today that you feel good about, your bravery does me good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ears,

I do believe EN is safe... I just get so frustrated some times. I don't like the attacks that go on elsewhere and I don't want to start to worry that they'll track people down over here. I thought Cat made a great point about why that could not have been addressed on the other thread... why was there a need to bring it here?

You handled yourself with such grace and integrity Ears, grace under fire you were. Good job... I dunno if I could have done that well.

There is something YOU can proud of yourself for today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

You're funny, Ears. I'm sitting here thinking of asking you what YOU have done, LOL. My D17's friend, who is gay and has been kicked out of his house half a dozen times (his dad doesn't like that he's gay), called her tonight and said he's getting an apartment with a friend, but it won't be ready for a few days and was wondering if he could stay here til it's ready. He's been hopping from house to house for a couple weeks, just so he could stay in school. I said of course, but then I looked at MrCat and asked him if it was ok with him. He said 'of course it's not ok!' So I tried to talk to him about it, told D17 to tell her friend that we would have to talk about it and let him know, but wouldn't have an answer til tomorrow.

In the meantime, MrCat does what he always does when he is 'confronted' and 'questioned' on his final word - he went to sleep. So I've been sitting here, trying to get up the courage to wake him up and try to talk to him about it.

My mother was always the person who let people in. It's one of the things that had the most effect on me, even when some of them turned out to be not so honest. She never turned anyone away.

So...sorry to let you down, but I'm sitting here in my own muddle.

fwiw, I'd like to step into the etherworld and find MR and beat him up for you, LOL. You never deserved the way he treated you. grrr I think you handled it with amazing grace. Much better than I could have ever done. {{{EO}}}

Cat - I'm not sure what went on on the other thread because I didn't read it. All I know is that from I've read on yours that I need to let you know how much I appreciate all you've done for me.

I've gotten caught up in my own situation and lost track of some of the others I'd been keeping up with. You've asked me some tough questions and held my feet to the fire many times. You've brought me back down to earth a few times and for that I'm very grateful.

I love the way you say it like it is with no sugar coating. I don't think everyone will always agree with everything anyeone says - that would be impossible and quite boring - but the things you've said to me have always made me think. That's what it's all about.

I'm sorry you've had a rough go lately. It seems to happen to all of us - good times followed by some down times. I do believe that you're on the right track and that very soon you'll have gained the courage and self respect to kick it into a higher gear. You're laying the groundwork now which is a very important part to making lasting change.

I agree with Jilly that you're going to end up saving this M and have a happy second half of your M. Mr Cat is a tough nut, but he does have many good qualities that make the effort worthwhile.

You are a wonderful person and I so admire your caring for others. As you learn more ways to be wonderful to yourself your life will continue to become what you want it to be.

I don't know much about marriage and you know that I am new to this site but I will offer you a prayer and some support. You sound like you have spent many years trying to make a happy home and keep the peace. After reading everything that you wrote and seeing that you are a writer, I have a question what do you write about and is it a release valve for you. My writing helps me deal with my day to day life. I also wanted to comment on something that you said about preparing for when your daughter leaves. I believe that marriage is sacred but after so many years of enduring for your daughters sake and trying to make it work for your family...you should prepare mentally and financially for yourself in case when your daughter is gone you do need to go even if it is only for a while to get some peace. The fact that he calls you so much and asks you to review his work tells me that he actually values your opinion and knows you are intelligent, his pride and his past just doesn't let him show it. I agree with the member who suggested that you tell him the neighbors noticed the mess in the garage. If he cleans for visitors that may make him clean out the garage because he wants to put on a good show. As for the mess of papers, I have started slowly shredding a few at a time..it is hard and scary but he never notices and I can see the clutter decreasing. Get your house clean for you, like you told me it is not all about him. You sound like you do your very best to make both he and your daughter happy and are very tired. I just wanted you to know that you have somebody out here who cares..Hope tomorrow is a better day.

{{{evi}}} bless you! I really needed that tonight! I know he respects and loves me, he just has bad life skills, which makes it hard for me to just walk away. But I, too, 'remove' a few things at a time from our house so that it doesn't get noticed. No other way to do it, is there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, y'all might as well get ready for some brouhaha tomorrow. I went over to ff's sight and tore into them for chewing out EO and graplin. The nerve of those people! I have to say, EO, I was NOT as polite as you have been. In fact, I was downright mean, I guess. Sometimes, I just get to where I've had enough of bullies and sanctimonious twits, and have to call them out. Tonight was not a good night for me to catch them dissing on graplin, who has been nothing but helpful IMO. As have you, EO. Jeez. I'm done being polite when it's not warranted.

I once waged a war with a preacher of a big Baptist church, via our local newspaper. I later found out he was having his flock - including my best friend! - pray for me, to see the error of my ways in questioning what he was doing (long story). But I'm a stubborn person. I generally give and give and give - UNTIL I see meanness. Then I dig in and wage war until that meanness is exposed - for everyone's sake who might be hurt by it. So I think I might have started something...wish me luck.

Cat, I wish you luck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm sorry to hear about DD17's friend. I've gotta say, my H wouldn't let me touch a sitch like that with a 10 foot pole either. And then he would be like, "You've got to tell then that it's OUR decision instead of painting me out to be the bad guy like you always do." Then I steam because for a moment I think that I have to say what I'm told.

But here's what I like about MB, because I know I DON'T have to say what I'm told. "Hon, you tell her whatever you want, but you can't tell me what to say if I'm the one saying it. If you want to discuss it with me, then I can tell her that we discussed it and decided together. But we haven't done that yet."

And I do get run down that when there's tools like POJA why we're still so far from that. I mean, I understand that there's good reasons not to have someone in your house, just hear me out too, for crying out loud. There I go DJing again, just painful to think like that, about others' decisions, what's not in today; I've got to focus on the good stuff in today instead.

What did I do in my bravery today, cat? Why, I'm glad you asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My coworker got mad at how I handled something, and told me that it wasn't okay, and I took her comment as about her instead of about me, and found the win-win solution for it myself. You see how good I do when I stop feeling bad about myself and think about the solution instead!

KLD, if you're around, I just wanted to say thanks. You've got so much more on your plate, so I really appreciate you taking the time, and the kind words.

I dipped my toe in ff this morning, just to see if I was getting torn to shreds, or if anyone might have understood just an inkling of the logic I was trying to impart, i.e., all the posters over there don't have to toe the line and just agree with what the 3 or 4 loudest posters say (or else!). Yeah, I'm being torn to shreds. That's cool. When I see people act that way, I lose all respect, so I don't need to go back. I did let ff know that MR followed someone to their own thread to chew them out (without naming names); just so she'll know that he would do something like that. It's the least I could do, since I'm not going back.

Update: MrCat actually talked to me last night about the friend thing! I could tell he was worried that I was mad at him, which is a strange feeling. So we talked very calmly and non-DJ, and he explained that it had nothing to do with the boy, who we both love, but that we had to leave our last home, our dream home, because of a rumor. He is so scared that someone who doesn't like D17 would twist his staying at our house into a rumor to destroy her, that it would ruin her remaining time here, just like at our last home. She has a couple of people who have decided to become her enemy, and would jump at the chance to bring her down.

If you don't know my story, my stepmother started a rumor that MrCat was abusive to D17, and by the time we moved it had morphed into him being a child molester and out on the hunt for more kids; by the time we moved, kids were coming up to D17 in school and asking her what we did to her; and she had only one friend left, because our neighbor made a point of 'warning' everyone to stay away from us.

That whole incident started because of a sleepover D17 attended, and MrCat didn't want her to stay an extra night, I said to let her, and during that stayover, the whole thing got started. So he said he has another gut instinct this time, and he doesn't want to ignore it like he did last time. I can't argue with that. So I told D17 our decision, and told her to make sure she tells the boy it's not about him, but about our fear of rumors. I also told her to tell him that once he gets into his apartment, we plan to help him out with groceries and other needs.

So MrCat was really nice to me this morning, the product of us having a productive, nonDJ talk and a little bit of closer relationship, and he was really nice to D17 when he talked to her about it on the way to school. So I think we all learned a little.

Yes! That is so true! That book I'm reading, Emotional Alchemy, is all about stepping outside your feelings, and analyzing them. That way, they don't lead you, you lead them. Cool stuff. Anyway, good work!

Wow, cat, that really ties in to what Telly was saying last week, too, about giving folks time to process. I'm glad that you all found the win-win there. Upward and onward <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((Cat)))

I haven't read the thread, but I'll weigh in on this post.

So you ask him if something is OK, he says not it's not OK, and then he apparently is critiqued for expressing this opinion. If not to his face, then here.

You asked him, he answered, and you wanted to talk about it more.

I think I know why he goes to bed. Because you want to change his mind.

If you are really marriage building, then this comes under the category of POJA. He doesn't agree with the friend staying, and he, as a partner in the marriage is entitled to his opinion. If he doesn't want to discuss it, then he is also entitled to that, as the POJA says that you both have to be in agreement before doing something and that includes having conversations.

I wonder if the reason he doesn't want to talk is really because you frequently want to change him or change his mind about things.

Why would he keep having conversations if you try to change his mind all the time?

Frankly, if he's not comfortable with a teen boy staying in the home with you and your D17, then that should pretty much be the end of the conversation. There really isn't anything to talk about.

MrCat is not your mother, so it's not reasonable to expect that he would agree with doing things like your mother. He is MrCat.

I can ID with MrCat, since I was raised by a single mom, usually stayed at Granny's until I was in my teens. Learned to take care of myself and my younger sister. Other than $$$, I was pretty much self sufficient at 13.


OK, so he wants more attention and doesn't have a healthy way of expressing it. Can you pro-actively do something, like greet him when he arrives and invite him to join the homework party, or ask for his help, that may trigger something good in him. He may want to be ASKED. I like to help, but have been taught not to just jump in. So an invitation may be in order.

OK, so what is your plan to get over this? You cannot expect him to just know what you want, that your are not happy. This is all on you. It's not realistic to expect him to read your mind and just know that you are not happy.
This could be any number of things. Have you started with checking if this is a good time for a conversation? It may never be a good time for him. But still, it may be wise to ask if you can talk. Or at the very least, open with asking him what HE wants. The words men fear the most is, "We have to talk." because 99.44% of the time that means, "We have to talk about what you are doing wrong." This would be one of those examples because you are going to tell him that you want more, what he is doing or not doing is not cutting it for you, etc.

He probably fears confrontation as much as you do. I base this opinion on his ostrich like exits <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe he just doesn't like doing those sorts of things, and would rather do something else.

Well, everything probably is fine, from his perspective. Furthermore, you can't FORCE change. That's a love buster. Self esteem is SELF esteem. That means it's YOUR job to work on that. Not his. You cannot, nor should you lay that issue at his feet. If you try that, you are basically doing what you claim he does, avoid ownership of problems. Self esteem is 100% your issue. It's not spouse esteem, or family esteem. It's how you see yourself. Only you can change that.

I think you decide to view yourself as valuable. You don't look for value in how others see you. You find the value in yourself. As a man of faith, I see myself as valuable because I, like everyone else was created by God, to have a relationship first with God and then with the rest of His creation. I'm no more or less valuable than others. But I am valuable because God made me, made you, and everyone else too.

I believe that view provides a health personal view of worth, because it makes me valuable, but no more than anyone else, lest I become "entitled."

Thanks for coming to my thread! I always appreciate the gentle reminders of my part. And you're right. In the past, we have never negotiated anything. I said what I want, he says what he wants, we both pout, and we typically do things his way because I wasn't a strong enough person to fight for my side and because I didn't want him to start yelling at me for questioning him, which is typically the next step in our house. So we were basically at the point where we didn't discuss anything; we didn't know any better.

Now that I've been here, I've started incorporating better ways.

For one thing, last night I told D17 that MrCat and I had to discuss it later, because he had not heard the entire story yet; she was starting to tell him, but he just said no, shut down, and went to sleep. I used to DJ him for doing that, but I told her it would be a parent decision, and I'd let her know today.

And when we did talk about it, he expressed his opinion, and I agreed with him, and said so. And told D17 that we both agreed that the boy shouldn't stay.

I actually consider last night a pretty big success, considering our past dysfunctional methods. We both learned a better way to handle a disagreement. He came back to talk, and I listened and agreed with him. I refrained from our past poor methods, and got a better level of closeness from my H.

fwiw, when I brought up my mother, he replied that his mother did the same, and that he would love to welcome all the kids into our home, but he is so afraid of what people can do that he can't overcome it.

Good for you! That is such good progress CP! Round of applause!
I agree that something like that should be a joint decision. It's a big deal to bring someone else into your home, even for a little while. Good for you for wanting to be helpful but I think that your H might be right.
I'm sorry about your stepmother, that's just horrible.

You're right that he wants to be greeted when he gets home. I've been making a special effort to do this, even though I don't want to. He makes almost no effort to acknowlege me, so my resentment has kicked in big time the last few years, so I stopped 'welcoming' him, but I've been trying to make sure I do it now. As for housework, I've asked every way I can think of. I've generally discussed things that need done, I've point blank asked ('will you replace the battery in the alarm?'), I've said what I'm going to be doing and asked if he could help, I've talked about how bad I feel that there are so many things I want to do but am not skilled enough (shaving off the bottom of a door, etc.), I've tried writing out a list of things and both handing it to him and asking him to help me out by handling anything he would like to help with and I've left it out on the counter either with no mention of it or mentioning it in passing ('I left a list of things I'd like to get done; maybe there's something on there you'd be better at than me'). I've asked him to take on just one chore - anything he wants - so that it would free up me to get some other things done - he refused and said he can't do any chores, never knows when he's going to be home to do them. That said, now that I've tried incorporating MB and have been more giving to him, he has actually agreed to help me on 2 or 3 occasions; he ended up doing something other than what I asked, but at least he got up off the couch and helped, so I'm not complaining.

A few years ago, when I was suicidal, I told him all about my going to therapy, how it's based on my self-esteem and even told him that I was afraid of him because his response to everything is to get angry; he went to a couple therapy sessions with me but stormed out when the lady said that she needed to see him separately before we could continue. He knows I was on AD, was suicidal, and yet he asked me to stop taking the ADs, fearing (he said) that our friends and family would think it was his fault. And yes, I stopped taking them, to please him. And he has never brought up the issue since. (I'm currently in the process of getting back on.)

I can't even get him to talk about planning a vacation; every time I have ever asked him to talk - about anything, he says 'I can't' or 'I can't deal with it right now.' IC says it's his depression talking.

I distinctly remember my mother telling me that no one on this earth is better than me, but that I wasn't any better than anyone else, either. I think only the second half stuck. I have such a low self-worth that I feel guilty pulling into a close-in parking spot at work that someone else has emptied, thinking they will come back and think 'who does she think she is?' That pretty much describes me. My IC is trying to help me get through that, but it is tough to get past 50 years of deferring to everyone else in my life. Even my daughter; I used to love to eat watermelon, and when she was born and started eating it, I stopped saving part of it for me, saved it all for her. My life is full of those sacrifices, which I guess go back to my childhood where I learned that I would get praise or attention by being selfless. That's hard stuff to get over, thinking everyone deserves more than you.

Thanks for bringing up these questions; it's been helpful to reassess.

Catperson, were you raised in a religious family? I have this gut feeling that you're trying to be a saint. (:
I know what you mean about saving things for your daughter. It's ok to do that, isn't it? But in general in life, YOU deserve good things sometimes too.

You know the other options? One is make a "to do" jar and put in pieces of paper with all the jobs that need to be done. Every weekend you each take out a piece and do what's on it.

Or, do you have any friends or family who are handy? Preferably men? Or do you have any money you could spend on hiring someone to do some of the little things? There are lots of things I couldn't get my H to do until I started asking male friends (of both of us)about it or if they could help me. Suddenly he was superman. hee.

The last thing is to ask yourself how you really feel about home ownership. I know this is probably odd in this society, but I am to the point where I don't even value home ownership anymore. I know, it's equity and all of that, but it's not worth it to me to have all this stress in our lives. I'd rather call someone else and have them take care of it.

When he says "I can't think about it right now", that reminds me of my H. He has trouble making decisions, and feels pressured when I ask him anything about the future. It's very frustrating. He always has an excuse too.

Thanks for sharing all of this, it makes me feel like I'm not the only one.

Great point. Home ownership is not for everyone. Like the old saying, "Home is where the heart is." As for ownership, you can own things, including real estate, without living in them. If the stress of owning a home outweighs the pleasure, why bother?

It reminds me of Wayne Dyer talking about his lack of being handy. He said if he had an Indian name it would be "He who writes checks." I heard someone else say he had one thing in his toolbox, and it was a phone.

I sometimes trade out skill for skill. I traded some painting for babysitting. I traded some carpentry for taking care of dogs while the owner was out of town.

We have a home because MrCat was so poor that he dug in dumpsters behind restaurants to find half-bad food for his family to eat, and scooped up rice that fell from the trains. His dad had him up on roofs roofing with him (for no pay) when he was 5. All he knows is poverty and work. For him, trading up in houses is his self-expression. He had his first house at 19, working 3 jobs to pay for it.

He stayed with one company (in sales) for 24 years, and gave up getting a degree cos he's not much of a student, and dyslexic. So when he got laid off, he spent the next 3 years in a funk, crummy jobs, used up all our savings, college money, and ran up over $50,000 in credit card debt.

Add that to the rumor thing, which was all about him and his image in society, I'm surprised he's still alive. So, while he worked his rear end off fixing the first house, the second and third houses we've been in have suffered from his depression, which he won't acknowledge.

btw, I've tried hiring people; he gets mad because it's insulting him, and he runs the people off or humiliates them. However, I DID tell him this week that I am going to get the house organized enough so that I could hire in a housekeeper. He didn't say anything. That's progress.