{{CP}} (Small hug, don't want to presume, but I feel your pain)

C.S. Lewis says that the worst sin is pride. He doesn't want to do the work, doesn't want anyone else to do it either. No wonder you are frustrated!

This getting the house organized to hire a housekeeper must be an XX thing. If you get a chance, look at my post on housekeeping and communication in Resolving Conflict.

That just makes me so sad reading about your H's past. He sounds so proud and stubborn too.
I'm really starting to get what you are talking about when you say that he has to have his way all the time.
In the past have you ever had an instance when you've tried to stand up for yourself? What was his response?

We've never had a good way of working things out, so no, I don't remember standing up for myself. I do remember several instances where I tried, but 'lost.' For instance, one year my mom and brother wanted us to go up to Ohio to visit our family with them, and I got him to sign off on it, only to have him say at the last minute he didn't 'see' how we could go, we had too much to do, we didn't have the money. So I made up an excuse on why I couldn't go, and they went without us. He promised we would go later; we never did. I never saw my Ohio family again, since D17 was 1.

There was one time my dad and stepmother wanted me to go to help them work on a beach house they were building. I stood up to H, who didn't want to go. So I went, he stayed, and he worked on our garage; during which time he tried to hold up a beam by himself, it fell on him, and every time we fight ever since (25 years ago), he brings up my selfishness and how I 'always' go 'gallivanting around'. So I don't consider that one getting my way, cos I've been paying for it for 25 years.

I think it was star or pieta - can't remember which who said they handle chores that they'd like their husbands to do by just starting the chore themselves. Usually the husband comes around to correct you by doing it himself. (Sorry guys)

I mentioned this to my mother, and I can distinctly remember telling her "but then he'll yell and curse."

My mother said "So what. At least it will get done."

The way I see things is that if you were single, you'd have to do those things anyway - many of them on a limited income and by yourself or with a capable child's help.

So...why can't you and your DD try and get that door off it's hinges, place it across something, and have her stabilize it while you shave off the bottom sometime? You have access to the internet. I'll bet there is a tutorial on one of the home improvement sites on how to use a plane safely.

I really think that taking the initiative on some of these things would bolster your self esteem and make you (and he) realize that you're capable of handling a lot more than you thought.

Frankly, I think your husband is too comfortable in the knowledge that you're afraid to do things without him. Maybe he looks at it as marriage security, as odd as that sounds.

I agree with soolee. It's not so hard to plane a door. Just get a pair of saw horses, a plane, masking tape and sandpaper to clean it up a bit.

I like to tape around the door to minimize and chipping on the edges. So if you were going to plane the bottom, run tape around the front and back of the door. (Not on the surface you are planing, but the faces perpendicular to that surface)

(or if you're like me, if you were single you'd have a landlord doing things for you....) ha.

CP, your H just sounds so controlling and like he just doesn't care about your feelings a lot of the time. My H is the same way about family, he just doesn't get why it's important to me. But I have just decided to make my plans and do what I want to do.

One thing I did want to say is that just because your H thinks something is true, that doesn't make it true. Just because his perception is that it's your fault that the beam fell on him doesn't make it true. And it doesn't mean that you have to agree with him assessment or live by his perceptions or his way of thinking.

It's pretty common for abusers to have no boundaries between themselves and other people, and to blame other people for their own misfortunes in bizarre ways. My father used to do the same thing to me. For instance if he went to the window to yell at me about something and happened to break the vent cover in the process, that was my fault.
If he got a speeding ticket while driving somewhere to buy me shoes, that was my fault. If my brother kicked a hole in the wall because he was mad at me, that was my fault.

I hope that you don't internalize your H's feelings that you are an extension of him and responsible for him and everything that happens to him. I'm wondering what would happen in the future if he said something indicating that the beam falling on him was your fault, and you said something very calmly such as "I understand that you think that is my fault, but I refuse to take responsibility for it, and it's not acceptable for you to talk to me that way about it." End of story.

You guys are all correct, I know. All of this is logical. I was raised not to have a say, so it's a really hard pattern to overcome, even when I'm standing there, thinking it out logically. That's my fear speaking, and my inherent belief that I don't count as much as other people. You know what you're suppoed to do but, like your mom, she figures out ways to get what she wants with the least conflict. And that was me that said I'd start a project so he would finish. But then I have to hear about it for days, so you have to weigh on whether it's worth it.

I agree, though, and that's what I've been working on these last few month, what I've been getting by coming here - the confidence, the knowledge that there are so many people out there in the same shoes. It does help.

Cat,

How are you practicing (reinforcing) your new choice to believe you're equal and whole (like everybody else)? That there isn't a thing wrong with you...God doesn't make no junk?

Even not loving or respecting yourself doesn't make you less than or more than anyone else. And yeah, it's incredible how many shoes out there fit my feet, too.

Seems to me we live in great fear of not being loved...and yet, a greater fear may lurk behind that one...that we already are.

LA

How am I practicing it? Well, I told MrCat I didn't want to go with him and D17 when they went horseback riding - even though I got the expected scowl and prickly response from him. I went upstairs to help D17 clean her room and didn't offer to mow the yard when MrCat was ready to do the yard. Maybe a couple little things like that.

I realized the other day why I'm so...pushed. One day we were working on the yard, and I had sent D17 upstairs to clean her closet, and MrCat asked what she was doing. That may sound weird, but given our background, what that means is that he has this belief that if you're not working, you're lazy and selfish. He has been pushing that on me our whole lives together. Any time he would see me sitting down and reading or doing needlepoint or whatever, he would criticize me for not getting something done. There was always something that needed doing. That was the excuse he used early on, when I wanted to go visit my mom in another town, that we didn't have any spare time, too much to do, couldn't spare the time to go visit her. I bought into it because I didn't want to get criticized. So now I realized that he was incorporating that into D17's life, too.

So I've been aware of that, and determined to make sure that doesn't continue. And that I will start changing my own life, to not be in that trap any more. It's stupid.

It might have been a way for his family to survive poverty, but you guys don't need to live that way now. Anyway, didn't you say he'll sit on the couch for hours while you're outside working? So it's ok for him to do that but not for you and your D?

I also think that you're taking what he says literally at face value. Or are you? Do you really think that he didnt' want you to go to your mom's because he didn't think you should take the time, or was it because he's afraid of being alone and doesn't really value your relationships with other people?

I wish there were some way to just implant into your brain how valuable you are. I really do wish I could give that to you.
One thing I wanted to say, I don't know if this speaks to you at all, but just had to put it out there. I started to do yoga about ten years ago and learned a lot about Hindu and Buddhist beliefs in the process.
Over and over, I read about yoga teachers from India who would come to the west and were absolutely shocked at how many people have such low opinoins of themselves. One teacher said one day he had had interviews with a lot of the people at a retreat he was teaching, and he was just overcome with sadness at how we devalue ourselves he just started sobbing.

I think that our culture teaches people to be either overly selfish and egotistical, or to completely be selfless to the point where we don't even feel like we have the right to exist. You have the right to exist because you're here, you were born, every human is important. You're worth so much because you're a woman, a mother, and a wife. Even if you were just you on your own, you would still be so valuable. Just because!

Cat, LA asked me if I was trying to control H's reactions by "Going along to get along." Gosh darnit, after all this time, I found I was! I don't want to think that my H is someone who mistreats people. I don't want to think that I would be living a life with a man who would mistreat me. I don't want to think that I would make my kids live with someone who would mistreat us. And I don't want my kids to take that example and think that it's okay to mistreat folks. You see how I fell back into denial, by accepting the false payoff of thinking we were functioning well together.

I like how Myschae says that if you hold to your boundaries, and the person gets nasty, well that's Good To Know!

I'm so happy to see that we are making different choices, this week, and we can handle it!

glad nto hear that you made a breakthrough by telling him you'd discuss something later. It gives both of you time to settle down and then listen to each other. I think listening and really trying to listen not just hear and think of the next thing you want to say is very hard for everyone. Congats on the breakthrough...you are my inspiration to keep trying. Have a good weekend

Cat, you've got mail <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I decided to follow the concept of start doing a project and he'll feel compelled to step in. I first asked what he had planned yesterday morning, then I asked him to help me move the kitchen table so I could mop the floor (which, sad to say, had only been thoroughly mopped twice in the last five years; but that's how we live). Saturday, two different neighbors had reason to come into our filthy house, and I decided I'm tired of being mortified when people see how we really live. After the first person came over, MrCat decided to shampoo the carpet downstairs. Of course, that was also because he neglected to tell me that he had invited one of his coworkers over for dinner! Thank goodness that by the time H called the man, he was gone, other plans, cos I was at the point where I was ready to tell him 'the next time you invite someone over without giving me a day's notice you're sleeping on the couch.' Actually, that probably would have been a good exercise in standing up for myself, huh?

Anyway, he helped me move the table Sunday morning, and the next thing you know, he's cleaning all the windows in the kitchen inside and outside (I had removed the curtains to wash them for the first time - and I shrunk them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />...); then he's cleaning some of the walls; then he's cleaning the floor with the new shampooer I bought him for Christmas.

I'm going to say that it's because I helped him work on the stupid river in the forest behind our house Saturday morning, and he was helping me to repay the favor. But 30 years tells me it's because he 'knew' he could do a better job cleaning the floor than me. I guess so, it took him 8 hours!

But, help is help! I'll take it.

Took him to the airport this morning, will be gone til Saturday. (sigh of relief)

Wow, Cat, that is really cool, how you guys are working together to get the house back how you both like it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Is it symbolic of how you all are working together to help DD17, too?

I heard you touch on perfectionism, how your H thinks something should be done a certain way, or leave it alone. I'm glad that you didn't let that get in your way. We'd rather have shrunk curtains than be afraid to try <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, the good thing is now I get to buy good curtains, instead of the cheapest I could afford at the time 4 years ago. I actually ended up buying cloth shower curtains, because they were exactly the right size for the windows (72x72) so I didn't have to hem them. I really liked them, but they were getting faded because I ended up not being able to afford the shades I was going to put up behind them, and they weren't designed for sunlight. So now, with my newfound outspokenness, I'm going to see if MrCat will pay for shades AND curtains, since I still have no money.

Oh, forgot to mention that Saturday, MrCat edged the yard, but I went out and started pulling weeds and planting flowers, and when it came time to mow the yard, I just kept on weeding, and H ended up mowing (typically my job). Which is fine with me, since he often comments on me not doing it right. So one less opportunity I'm putting myself in to get criticized. I figure the fewer times I get criticized, the better chance of building up my self-esteem.

Not saying the weekend went smoothly, we had a few instances where I got criticized, things went wrong and it was all my fault, etc. But I tried really hard to keep telling myself it wasn't about me. I don't know if that will ever come easily.

Cat, I love how you reframed the curtain situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry to hear that your H is still critical of you. Good for you, for remembering that it's not about you! Do you have Love Without hurt by Steven Stosny? He has a quick 4 step process when you feel a drop in core value to get it right back up. So in effect, over time, the verbal abuse triggers you to rebuild yourself instead of letting it tear you down.

Catperson, for some reason that river idea just cracks me up everytime you mention it.
I'm glad that he's helping you! I hope you get some rest while he's gone, too.

Cat, I'm sorry to hear that things went poorly this morning. Just an idea, maybe he was mad beause he didn't do the thing on purpose as a passive aggressive swipe at them, and you didn't back him on it. In fact, you chose their perspective on the things priority instead of theirs. I don't know, and I know speculating's a risky game, just wanted to point out what jumped out at me.

Anyhow, I heard at Alanon that if you do something for someone that they didn't ask you to do, THAT's enabling. And if you do somehting for someone that they can do for themselves, THAT's enabling. But I don't know whether those ideas are relevant to you. Cat, have you read Dr. Harley's article about how the codepency move ment is ruining marriages? I think his point was that things that are kind and helpful in a healthy home are adding fuel to the fire in an unhealthy one, so you've got to know what you're dealing with and use the right tools. Do you think that you have codependency issues that add to the dysfunction, or do you feel confident that you have a healthy interdependence.

Cat, I like to think that you are creating a healthy marriage, and that those things that you did this morning were nice and healthy. But I don't live with you, so I'm asking what do you think.