I was also thinking, is there any way or technique to get her to take a step forward to recovery? Im sure I know the answer is no to this and I need to do what I need to do to better myself and its her decision. I just feel she isnt going to take the steps to recovery and just stay pissed off and not make any decisions or anything, instead I feel she will leave me here waiting every single day depressed.

But I will continue to pray and put this in gods hands, and like my counsler/preacher told me. Who that confesses their sins to god, he will bring cleansing and show the light. Dont rem. the exact words but it was in that manner.

"Bump Believer or anyone give me advice on how not to get her to dwell and talk about our R? I know shes going to probably bash me if she comes over here and tell me how wrong ive been ect. What should I do to build love deposits ect.?"

Zach, she is going to be obsessed about the affair and your relationship for a loooonnnnnnnnggggggggggggg time. Get used to it. Answer her questions, hold her if she will let you, and tell her you are sorry.

Listen to yourself, Zach...you're all over getting, making her to take, choose...you have no control.

As long as your focus is all over her, you are not owning your own thoughts, aware of your own stuff.

You are living in fantasy.

Took fantasy to cheat...didn't it? I'll need that answer to your whys...focus on you, your stuff, your choices and actions...your perceptions. Don't live over in her...you betrayed the marriage once...you continually betray yourself, abandon yourself, which sets you up to do so in your life and your relationships, 'k?

Study and learn how God forgives...how he sees us, from his perspective...and learn the difference of human forgiveness...we choose to forgive or not...mostly, we choose to not forgive daily...or to forgive daily. Not a single act, a process.

Depression is anger turned inward. Let me know when you want to shredding yourself...what you do to yourself, you will do to others. What you do not allow yourself to do to others, you won't allow done to you, nor to do to yourself.

How this perfect justice for humans works.

Remember to breathe...to calm yourself...practice breathing...inhaling slowly (count of four or so), try to exhale five...slowly. Steadying your own heart...so you can be very present.

There are two recoveries from infidelities (and most events in life)...personal and marital recovery. Your focus on her deters, delays and can stop your personal recovery.

When she's present and chooses to share, you can know her stuff. When she's not there, you cannot know.

Know your own. Share your own. That's within your control and sole responsibility.

God gave you immense and incredibly respectful choice--you choose your thoughts, your beliefs, how you perceive and how you view yourself and others. All are choices. Your feelings result from your choices.

In the bible, it says where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure. Also says seek ye first the kingdom of God, then all these things shall be added unto you. Top priorities...define and know your highest one...then act from it. Dwell in the present, not the future (she's not there yet) nor the past. Right here, right now. Breathe.

LA

Thank you both for those posts, they are very helpful....And you both are 100% correct.


She is coming over she said in a minute. She said only for 10 mins cause she dont feel good, but im sure thats BS and she'll go out with her friend after she leaves here like usual.

Ill post an update afterwards

Me and my wife were here at my house and decided to make her a thread.

LA I think would u be a big help for her since you experienced similar events.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3341825

Im so glad she decided to come over, we didnt talk about anything about the R. She sat down in front of me and I offered to rub her back and she let me. We glanced at some of the pictures I set up in my room from our honeymoon in cancun mexico. Good memories. We watched tv and chatted just about general things. I love her so much and im glad we had a decent night without fighting.

Please all keep us in your prayers!

and again, thank you all for the support so far, we're going to need it.

Bump, u guys around today?

"Weve been fine and I cheated on her a few times, which I am very ashamed about and wish I could take it all back now. We both thought we got over all of that"

I was married to a serial adulterer for 25 years.
You have a serial adultery problem/mindset.
Unfortunately you have become used to a pattern of behavior AND a pattern of responses from your betrayed wife, AND a pattern of ways you think are the way to 'get over' your cheating.

ALL that has to change.
It sounds as if your wife is starting to realize that and you sound as if you are frustrated that what has worked in the past isn't going to work anymore.

"We both thought we got over all of that"

No - you did NOT.
YOU did NOT solve your serial adultery problem
AND you did not do the work necessary to fully recovery from those betrayals and protect your relationship from adultery. It is important that you acknowledge this or else you will continue to have false hope that your recovery this time can be as easy and quick as those so-called recoveries from the past.

I have not read your entire thread but what I have read indicates that you want this to be over ASAP and for your wife to stop wanting to talk about it.

You claim to have two opposing goals:
For your wife to be over it and for you not to have to talk about it with your wife. The later goal is totally self-centered. IMHO what you want is to escape any of the naturally occurring consequences of your adultery, for your wife to suffer and try to recover in silence, so you can feel better about yourself and what you did ASAP.

That is not recovery. That is getting away with it and will only enable you to do it again in the future.

IMHO your wife needs to raise the bar and require you to do a LOT more than you ever did before in the past for recovery. She needs to make sure that recovery takes MUCH LONGER this time than it ever did before. She needs to ask you a LOT more questions than she did in the past. And she needs to expect a LOT more proof from you that YOUR PROBLEM has been fixed before she trusts you again.

For the above post, I think YOU SHOULD read the whole thread frist before saying anything like you just did.

I am NOT trying to get away with anything, im trying to do everything possible to make myself a better person for myself and my wife. Not talking about it? I talked to a counsler everyday, I talk with my wife and her parents everyday, im not trying to get away with anything. I did wrong and im having to suffer for it.

In the past my wife ignored it, she found out about all 3 of those others at one time. We moved on within a week, yes that is not recovering thats why we are still where we are now. My wife isnt accepting me back or anything, shes being very very cautious and ****** she doesnt even really know if she wants to be with me anymore. Thats why im doing everything possible to save my marriage and for me to become a better person. She has asked a ton of more questions this time, last time we ignored it and thought marriage would get us past it, which was wrong we now know that. And nowhere am I trying to recover in silence, im doing everything possible to save this marriage and to better myself and us in the long run. How am I in silence when I talk to her about this everyday,her parents everyday, my family everyday, this message board everyday, and my counsler and god everyday.

Please read this whole thread before posting next time please.


LA- You around today?
Frozen?

I'm here, Zach.

Reading your posts since mine yesterday.

Can you answer some of the questions I have? What you think of the written amends list, the tracing your own emotions to the source belief?

Are you breathing?

LA

Yes LA thanks, I continue to calm myself by breathing, ive always had a temper and my counsler has had me to just stop and really think when I get mad, and realize why I am exactly mad, and when I do that I always realize its not worth getting mad over, so that has helped a lot.


On your questions, can you list them out a little better, im at work right now its tough to see the font on here and the long post it tough to read.

Im not very familar with the Amens list, can you give me some insight?

Zach,

Good to know you're breathing...besides all the physical helpfulness it does, there's also emotional, spiritual and mental benefits to it. Like your counselor said to stop and think...stop and breathe and think...because your reactivity has gotten you to where you are right now. So stopping, before reacting, is the critical choice which gives you the freedom to ACT not react.

Healthy, loving advice. Takes lots of practice.

I asked you to trace your anger back to its source belief. Similar to what your counselor advised...except you won't see it as nothing worth getting mad over...you feel anger. Has information, a signal, a purpose to deliver. Difference is, the anger drops away once you get what information it has...coming from your DJs...she doesn't care, has replaced you, doesn't want the marriage.

If you believe you've had a temper issue in your life, get to those untrue beliefs...assuming you know what you do not know and dwelling where you have no power or control...in others' stuff. Get to know and own your anger...it's yours, it's real and valid...doesn't mean it's right or coming from a belief you value and believe today. Could be an assumption, an unreasonable expectation...getting to know yourself makes all the difference in your experience today.

And you're worthing knowing, understanding, loving and accepting, 'k?

Here are my not so obvious questions from my posts:

"You have a new set of amends to make. Would you consider taking three days and writing out each action you took which attacked your relationship/marriage...owning you what you did, why you did it, and what's different in you now to know you won't choose to do it again? Those are real amends. We can't change a single action/word we took or spoke in the past. We can amend in the present. You began this verbally...written lasts. You keep a copy on the wall of your room, along with your written code...lots of homework."

Amends...I had a smile with your Amens...Amen to Amends! These take time, introspection and hindsight...you can go back to the beginning of your relationship with your wife and begin writing them. Take your time and sit in your highest honesty...if you do this, you will have many resulting feelings...go ahead and feel them. Trace and know. When you come really clean with yourself, who you were, what you did and did not do, and why...then you begin living closer to who you really are, right now.

Centers you. If you stay centered in honesty to yourself and others.

Here's more of the homework I advised for you to help yourself:

Getting to your why each time (it's built into the amends list, really)..."You CAN write down what you were thinking while you were choosing, seducing, having sex with another woman. Takes you being in your highest honesty right now, who you are now, looking as if at a distance to the past honestly.

Here's some ideas (find out what resonates in you)...go with emotions...admiration, clean slate, desired, coveted, acceptance, approval...what? Short-cut to being a real man can look like a conqueror...you dig and find...if you find the emotion...trace it to the belief...see where the distortion came in, the fantasy. You may not having been feeling like a man but a boy (conflict with loved ones can trigger this). You forage in there...you already know you chose...and you chose to react to your feelings at the time instead of act to your code (didn't have one, I'd bet)."

It's a choice you make, Zach, not an ability you don't have. You are able. Doesn't mean you're willing.

"Do a search on MB for "Joseph's letter". Help give you a new perspective on her 1000's of questions, 'k?

Now about DJs...study Love Busters...get the book from the library...this is what changed my life the most, first.

Took fantasy to cheat...didn't it? I'll need that answer to your whys...focus on you, your stuff, your choices and actions...your perceptions. Don't live over in her...you betrayed the marriage once...you continually betray yourself, abandon yourself, which sets you up to do so in your life and your relationships, 'k?"

Hope this helps...there's no time deadline to respond...stay focused at work.

LA

Hi Zach, SadPunk here, just replied to your wife's thread.

I was like you about 10 years ago, probably much worse, as I had a sex/porn addiction. You have to accept that your W may never come back to you. It is a consequence of your actions. Be fully prepared for her to D you. You don't seem to be ready for that. Adultery is sooo traumatic, that even the Bible allows the separation of what God has joined only in the case of infidelity. Try to put yourself in her position, try to truly empathize with her. You turned her world completely upside down. What she believed was certain in her life, like death & taxes, and you staying true to her, has now been completely obliterated. Her soul feels like it's been completely ripped to shreds, and aches like she's experienced the death of someone she loves dearly.

You cannot expect her to "get over" this in just a few short months. As others have told you, recovery is a long process that takes years. You can only do your half of repairing the damage you've done, leave it up to your DW to do hers. And don't do your half with any expections that your DW will do anything, much less even notice.

That old cliche rings so true, "if you love someone, set them free". Let your DW be free to make her own decision of whether or not to stay with you. MB will equip you to make yourself the most attractive choice to her as possible, but again, it's up to her. Keep walking with The Lord, keep learning from others here, keep reading the MB books, and if your BW is open to reconciliation, she will notice the true change taking place inside of you. If you love her as much as you say you do, you will patiently wait for her.

My prayers go out to you, and I'll tell you also, LISTEN TO NOODLE, she's is spot on!

God Bless,
SP

Ok good post....Ill answer at work best I can at the moment.

On the Amends...Are you wanting me to type them out on here or just for myself? Im willing to do that, just not sure if your wanting me to post on here (Im sure u do).

I have read Joseph's Letter, I understand

I will look for a book on love busters, ive read up on them as much as I can on here. Like last night I avoided them by not talking about our R. Which I think helped.

The amends list is for you, not to post. I appreciate you would be willing to post it.

I think your choice to be present, connective, not talk about R or decisions yesterday was a healthy one.

I think you think so, also.

I look forward to you addressing Noodle's, SP's and MM's posts. When you can hear what's being said without reacting to feeling attacked, you'll know you're more in clarity than in reactivity. Takes a lot of breathing.

There was an assumption in your post to MM...that he/she wouldn't haven't said that if they'd read all your posts. MM may well have the same opinion. You don't know. I'd like you to see the assumption in you, find the payoff...and see if it is real or false for assuming someone would think differently. That's their stuff, not yours.

You can practice listen and repeat here, as well. With everyone, actually.

Stop and consider what bites when you read it...just as you do with your anger...then trace the bite...and share here what you find if the bite comes from a post...I believe God works in our interactions...for us, our healing and our awareness.

LA

Ahh thanks so much for that post Sad. You are so right, I cannot change her mind. I can do what I need to on my part in the meantime.

MM I apologize for jumping your case. Im open to hearing anything. Please keep posting!

Noodles, even though your posts seem a little harsh, its ok, your telling me what I need to hear and the reality to this. Thank you


I understand fully this isnt going to change over a few months. I will be here for her weather she chooses to move on or choose me over a period of time.

LA-Great post and advice like always, when I read your posts in Sad's thread I knew you could help me out so much.

"give me advice on how not to get her to dwell and talk about our R"

Zach: I have read more of your posts and reading more has only further confirmed that you have a definite attitude of entitlement/expectation. Granted that attitude is being presented as, and to you feels like, desperation, 'love', remorse, wanting to save your marriage, etc.

The above statement from you reveals that you want your wife/marriage to recover without you having to 'dwell' on or 'talk about' the things that need to be addressed in order for full recovery. YOUR stated goals are in conflict with each other. If you really want your wife to fully recover, to be able to trust you and feel safe and loved by you again, then you will have to discuss whatever she needs to discuss, for as long as she needs to discuss it.

I've seen some other posters are trying to get you to accept the fact that you have already caused so damage to your wife and marriage that recovery might not happen. Do you realize that your wife has every right to divorce you and NOT give you any more chances? If/when she does give you another chance will you give her credit for that? You can't give somebody full credit for something if you in any way expect or feel entitled to what they give you.

I was married to a serial adulterer for 25 years, I didn't need to read every single thing you've posted here to recognize the pattern in you. Also, it's pretty typical for waywards who post here to make some of the same false assumptions and mistakes you are making, even if they were only involved in one adultery. What you presume is people making false assumptions about you is really people recognizing the same patterns they've seen from other waywards that have posted here in the past. We've seen SO MANY waywards post here, claiming they think they've done everything or 'enough' for recovery, and wondering or worrying why their betrayed spouse doesn't accept it as enough already. This is a VERY common wayward attitude. And it does not work in favor of recovery efforts. You need to drop any and all expectation that your wife will ever give you another chance. You need to say and do all the right things to help your wife recover from your betrayal and to show your remorse. ONLY THEN will your wife MAYBE give you another chance. Your wife probably suspects that you are only remorseful because you think it will get her to give you another chance. If that is the case, that's not true remorse. As others have already pointed out, that's self-serving and therefore suspicious.

In some of your posts you claim you are talking about this a lot... in others you ask for help in getting your wife to drop the subject. We can sense your insincerity and no doubt so can your wife. As long as you show any hesitation to talk about this as much as your wife needs to then your wife will not (and should not) respond as if you've done enough for recovery.

NO WOMAN wants to think the man who claims he wants her is ONLY willing to do the bare minimum he can get away with in order to have her!

It might help if you just tell yourself that you have already lost your wife for good. If you want her back you will have to start all over again, and you will have to start from the bottom of that hole you've dug. Stop assuming you have any right or entitlement whatsoever. Apologize to her for one reason alone: because you've wronged her and she deserves an apology to help herself feel better - NOT because it might help your case in any way.

Excellent post, MM.

That quote at the top was just for when we were over here together because I was advised to try and not talk about the R when we were here together last night, thats why that was said.

I dont want my wife to drop the subject, I want her to make me suffer through this so in the future weather or not im with her I will have changed and know what to do to be a better husband.

Your right, I need to focus on me. Im trying and doing everything. Im not wanting or planning on going through this quickly, im planning on staying here for years if I have to. I dont expect her to be happy, or feel anything good towards me.


But we just spoke...Ill let u know how our conversation went. It started out fine and just normal chat about her going to shop today. Then she just broke out at me and told me how could I do this ect. ect. I told her she has every right to D me and be upset at me, and thats her decision. She then proceeded to tell me how she will NEVER get this out of her head and she doesnt think she could ever move on about it esp with me. Then she yelled and she knows every detail about me and that girl. She pointed out every single detail and just bashed me for it. She tells me if that girl wouldnt have got sent off because of her attitude problem that I would still be with that girl. I told her I couldnt answer that and neither could she.


Just giving you an insight on how our conversation went, I was very calm the whole time, I did what LA mentioned and just took deep breaths, and when she did I suggested that to her also.


Another rough night. Ill hang in there. Im in this for the long run.

Why would you expect her to make you suffer through this?

Is it her job to badger you to take care of things you are responsible for?

That is a setup for her. And oddly enough, it also denotes a lack of responsibility. See...if it's HER job to make you suffer through this, when you fail to do so it becomes HER fault.

How about you just cut out the middle man and YOU be responsible for cleaning up your own mess?

That is what your behavior and your attitude convey to me. It reminds me of a child who makes a mistake that causes damage to something. When his mother tells him to clean it up, he moans and groans the entire time about how much effort it is and how tired of it all he is - while dragging his feet the entire time and painting his mother as the meanie who is making him do it.

When an ADULT makes a mess, Zach, he takes responsibility for it. Taking responsibility means having COMPLETE WILLINGNESS AND ENTHUSIASM in shouldering the consequences.

If you spilled ketchup all over someone's carpet, would you sit there and watch them while they toiled to try to clean up the mess? Would you say 'sorry about that mess' and expect THEM to clean it up? If they complained about the damage to their carpet and how much work it was for them to clean, would you tell them 'stop your whining already...can't you see how bad your complaining is making me feel'??? Would you feel right about letting them participate in cleaning the mess at all?

or...

would you tell them 'I'm so sorry. This is my fault and it isn't right for you to clean this. I'd like to show you how truly sorry I am by cleaning this mess up myself. After all, I am the one who caused it.'

You're NOT a victim, Zach...not by a longshot. Personally, I'd prefer not to hear another word from you about how she is being "mean". If you don't want her to yell at you and bash you, you know perfectly well how to protect yourself from it. Your coming here and posting about the abuse you are taking sounds like nothing more to me than childish tattling.

Please clean up your mess. A grown man doesn't need anyone to make or even tell him to clean up his mess. A grown man just does it.