We were talking last night about the affair- I don't remember how it came up- but he told me he took the baby over to see her at her house. He said he never got out of the car seat- she only saw him.

I am so hurt by all of this new information.

Here is my delimia- I had asked him SEVERAL times if she ever saw the kids- he said no. We even talked about his particular day (after Dday) in which he told me he did talk with her on the phone. Now he is saying he does not remember us having this conversation- and it was only a second and was not a big deal.

His explaination- if I was lying about it I would keep lying- I didn't think it was a big deal and I have promised to be truthful.

At which I am soooo mad- i tell him it is to me- and it was a message to her.

What do I believe- did he lie, forget and now he is caught- or was he in the fog (which was probably when we talked about it) and covering up??

AM

Hey amartini!



One of the most important things that I learned in MC was that I had to learn to make it "safe" for Mrs. RIF before she would start opening up with me and answering my questions.

That doesn't mean that I blindly believed everything that she told me... what it meant was that if I let my anger explode at Mrs. RIF every time she answered one of my questions, or if I immediately called her a liar, then she would eventually stop answering my questions, or just give me the answer she thought I wanted to hear...

This rebuilding stuff is hard... no doubt about it. If your H is in NC and is willing to answer your questions, then I would say that's a great sign... Please note that I didn't say that it was a great sign and you should BELIEVE him... Acknowledge your H's answer and thank him for sharing that with you...

I know the fact that your H took one of your kids over to the OW's house is a horrible thought for you. I know it hurts you deeply... You've asked your H this question shortly after D-Day, and you got one answer (most likely when he was still fog-bound)... and now you've asked it again and gotten another answer. The bottom line is that no matter WHAT your H answers, you are still going to be hurt...

I believe that the fact that your H was willing to tell you that he did, in fact, take your baby to the OW's house, knowing how much it would hurt you, is probably the truth...

Now it's up to you and how you will deal with his answer...

Semper Fi,

RIF

My response probably was not the best. I exploded- I was not that explosive when I found out about the affair. I have appoligized- telling him that my outburst- was not productive to the situation.

However- I have been asking how he knows he can be committed to me- his answer- because I love you.

That was the original topic when this came out. In the end- I gave him my wedding band and told him when he can say something different than I love you (as those words were said during the affair- as he was walking out the door in the am to see her) I would take it back.

His response- I don't have the words. My suggestion- go to the nearest hallmark and look at some cards to help you gather your thoughts.

He was in sales for so long- he is charming and intelligent- my point to him has been if he wanted to sell himself to me he could- but he is choosing not too- which says volumes to me without saying anything.

thanks for letting me ramble and vent
AM

Infidels are liars. Verify and require complete transparency. An honest or innocent person has nothing to hide.

hopeandpray-
I do require complete transparency. How do you verify someones motives? I have no reason to doubt he is being truthful now, it was a year ago that I question- did he really forget or was he fogged.

my daily struggle is- at what point in my life do I believe him over trival things. I have a teen son who lies about schoolwork and grades- I don't want to follow him 24/7 either. I don't want to live my life as a detective.

I do understand, what you are saying- but I have a hard time believing that my husband has lied to me for 15 years. I guess I perfer to believe he has it in him to lie-as seen by his affair- but he doesnt lie daily to me.

I think if I felt that way- I could not be here with him.

Am I off in my thought process?

AM

Hi amartini,

Are you guys in MC?

I was going off of your sig-line that D-Day was almost a year ago... and that you guys are in the rebuilding stage and that the A is over, and NC has been in place during this time...

I don't think that you're off in your thought process... This is hard stuff to wrap your mind around. One of the hard things for me to process was the fact that Mrs. RIF kept most of her A's hidden from me for 10+ years.

All of the questions that I had were all new to me and Mrs. RIF had tried her best to put them in the past... we had many ups and downs as we started to rebuild... and I had many doubts as to whether she was telling me the "truth" or not.

Right after your D-Day, I suspect that your H was lying to you to 'protect' your feelings...

If your H's actions, today, are NOT trustworthy, then that is another issue... and I agree with H&P that you should verify if you have ANY doubts whatsoever.

H&P - WS can and do become trustworthy... blanket comments such as yours really don't help a hurting BS or a WS that's trying to rebuild their M.

Semper Fi,

RIF

AM:

WHAT do you WANT him to say?

RIF pointed out the area of being "safe" to state the truth. Even if it hurts. You can not rebuild intimacy with someone when they can not feel "safe" to talk to you about the truth.

Because this was your DS in the car seat, and you reacted badly. What happens when some "real truths" comes out?

Some examples:

That both DS were in the car.

That another time, DS were in the car, but went in the house to play with OW's DS while WH and WW made out.

That when you were at work, WH and OW had SF in the bedroom while kids watched cartoons.

Decide if you want the truth, or if you prefer to live in denial. Because to get the truth, there WILL be pain. And anger. And the sooner you get it, the sooner you can process it. You may still decide to divorce your H. That's still your choice, and if you have the truth, and you can't go on with him, then you CAN go that route. But until it is safe for him to reveal all the truths, you will always be on pins and needles.

And I wanted to comment on the wedding band thing.....

This quote:

"However- I have been asking how he knows he can be committed to me- his answer- because I love you."

How about how can he be committed to you? You return the wedding ring because he can not emote in the way that you would prefer.

He should be a smoother talker "because he's in Sales"

I can be VERY smooth in my job and just brain-locked when talking to my wife.

Have you ever considered that?

It was either schoolbus or star*fish who posted about one day that they wanted DESPERATELY for thier FWH to tell them "Just ONE GOOD THING" about them. And thier FWH was speechless. Could not say ANYTHING. It was CRUSHING to them.

Then, the FWH went to thier office and wrote out an entire page of what was great about thier BS. But they had to go away to do it.

Will that happen in your case? I don't know.

But when you DEMAND a particular response, and react by giving your ring BACK because you didn't get it, then that isn't fertile ground to rebuild a relationship from.

Matter of fact, it will generally get you the response you DEMANDED, and you never get anywhere with that.

AM: Maybe all you wanted to do was vent.

But be careful. It's been 10 months since Dday, and the anger may be surfacing BIGTIME for you. LB's can happen when you are in that stage, WAY to easily.

LG

RIF-
We were in marriage counseling for about 5-6 months, I went to IC for 2 months. In MC the counselor ended it feeling as if we were well equipped and heading down a good path.

I went to IC to deal with my self-esteem- and feelings of worthlessness, as well as gaining skills in dealing with triggers. He too discharged me- with the understanding if I got stuck again to come back.

This emotional cycle started back with OW email FWH to wish him a happy bday. The result of this was a comment I made- what would make her do this- and his response "I guess it was on her calandar" To me this was an excuse, to him I asked the question in the wrong manner. If I had stated- what would have motivated her recognize 10-26 was your Bday, and motivated her to take her fingers to the computer and type- Happy Birthday- I would have gotten the response I don't know what her motives were.

My gut told me she was going to contact him- I was prepared emotionally for this- not for the minimizing/ justifing response he gave.

I do agree with verify doubts of actions- that I do- I can't verify his motives for why he did not tell- I have asked him several times if believed he was not at a safe place with me then to tell me the truth or was he honestly not remembering correctly. His answer was the later. Based on his continual actions in our marriage- I have no reason to doubt his response.

Thanks -
I have just answered my question
AM

LG-
Oh my- I have made it unsafe for him to tell me more. And I don't think it would do me any good to learn he was so bold to take our children over while he fooled around. Thanks for that visual <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right about how he is in the communication department- he just says he is unable to explain his feelings. He too is speachless and it kills me.

As far as the anger- it has hit me hard. When I was IC my therapist instructed me to sit him down and tell him the reasons I was angry. He sat, listened, and appologized again. It was a huge relief to tell him how angry I was at him - for the first time my jaw was not clinched and hurting from holding the anger in. It was a great relief to me.

You are so right- I am manipulating him in order to obtain a response that I so desperately need to hear. This is not healthy. I know him- he is not someone that has a large bank of emotional words- he is an actions person and I need to look at his actions. It is not fair for me to do this to him.

Thanks
AM

Hey amartini,

Sometimes it just helps to write things down...

So did your H tell you that the OW sent him an e-mail?

Hopefully, that was the case... if he did, I hope that you THANKED him for being honest with NC and for telling you about the e-mail.

Semper Fi,

RIF

AM:

I can tell you that the pull is strong to send something on a Birthday to the AP.

Your H may be in the struggle to prevent himself from doing it, he might not. But, I will presume that he didn't send a email on OW birthday.

But OW DID send him the email. On his birthday. Because she CARES. (Yuck) Because it keeps the lines of communication open.

And although they might not have had contact for over ten months, a birthday rolls around, and one AP decides to send just a b-d card.

And the A could be off to the races again.

But in this case, it seems that your H TOLD you about the contact.

Is he being H&O with you? Transparent? Did he change email accounts, cell phone #s, etc to insure NC? Or were somethings unable to be changed due to workplace constraints?

Sorry about giving you the bad visual. But DO YOU know everything you need to KNOW about your H during the A?

What more WOULD you like to KNOW or CONFIRM?

Wouldn't THAT be a safer long term conversation with your spouse?

LG

RIF-
He did tell me that she emailed him. His feelings in regards to recieving it were- guilt and sadness as he knew he would be telling me- which would cause heartache.

So yes he was truthful.

And yes- I will tears in my eyes, I bite my check and thank him.
AM

LG-
I sent my FWH and email this morgning with a plan of 30 min a day talking about affair related issues- with the goal to tapper off daily to weekly- bi monthly- monthly- until hopefully there isn't this need.

His response was:
I am willing to try this plan. I really want this to work for us. I’m sorry I don’t know how to express what you need to hear. I don’t think I have ever been any good at talking about feelings, I just try to show you how I feel. When you tell me you feel like dog poop on my shoe, it indicates to me that nothing I’m doing is productive at all. You are wanted, desired, appreciated, respected, worthy, attractive, productive (what ever that means), and much more to me, but when you ask me how to explain that to you, I don’t understand how to respond. I love you and just want you to understand that and be happy around me again. It makes me feel like I’m doing more harm than good whenever all I do is make you more miserable just by seeing me. I do not know how to handle that. Anyway, I love you!!!!

Mr. AM

This is the first time he has told me how he feels. I don't know why he thinks I am more miserable when I see him. I am equally miserable- whether he is here or not. HA!

So my question is- how do I express myself without him feeling like he is doing more harm than good. I have praised him for what he has done- I've just told him I need more. I think my words were- before the affair my love was like a full cup of water- when I learned of it- it was if you dumped my cup out- I need you to refill it. I have told him- he is making deposits (such as calls out of the blue to share his day) but I need more of it. And it seems the more he feels it- the more secure I will feel. It's just not getting there quick enough for either of us.

Then things happen- like email from OW and his justification- and he's pouring out of my love cup.

Does this make sense? Maybe my illustration is lost on the men folk?

As far as info from the affair- I need things like what allowed you to cross the line, what did you like about yourself in this relationship etc. I am getting it piece by piece.

Like inflating his ego and having a friendship without all the garbage (kids money in-laws), it was fun with no stress.
AM

AM,

His response sounds positive to me. My FWH would get miserable when he saw me miserable. We would negatively feed off of each other's misery and shame. We didn't talk that often, unless emotions dictated it (early on). We only tried to spend 30 mins a week. The reason for us was that, that half hour would sour the rest of the evening.
Now is he is upset about something, and if I don't know for sure what it is, I jump to OW/ A crap. He can tell, he can see the question in my eyes. Is this something about A? or is this work, or neighbor, or car, or kids, or parents, or...... His response is usually, "This is not about us" which helps me greatly to breath and then to focus.

Fled

Fled-
His response does sound positive. I feel like we have beaten the affair to death, I am sick of it. I wish I could read his mind, gathering and detail he has left out, forgotten, etc so we can move on. I think we need to get back to building an intimate relationship.

Honestly- I feel beat down about this situation. I love him with all my heart- and always will but sometimes - I think why. why stay- why work so hard- why why why, my answer- is my love for him. But is that enough to heal?
AM

AM:

In regards to the talks, 30 minutes doesn't sound bad, but they need a direction.

Try this to start the process:

So I always recommend making a list. Start with the things that you need to know, expand the questions, flush out what you really need to know. Take your time working on it. Two-three months maybe. Get it in writing and thought out. Group the questions, either in chonological order, or in another logical order like that. Then write the questions on 3x5 index cards. 1, 2 or 3 questions on each card about a similar question. You want the card to have questions that relate to each other, that can take a couple of minutes to answer, and allow the subject to be covered.

After you have these index cards, number them in the order you would like to address them. This is your preference about the order YOU would like to go thru the questions. Start with easy subjects first, then as your H gets more comfortable with the process, you can have him tackle the more difficult ones.

Give the cards to your H. Explain that you have thought about all the things you need to know, and have put them on these cards. You have numbered them, and you would like to talk to him about each one of the subjects on the cards, but we will only do ONE card a week, for one hour. Until we are done. LEt him know that you have numbered them, in the order YOU would like to go thru them, but you are willing to go in an order he would like. And most important: "If he is honest with you, thoughtful, and not evasive, YOU are satisfied with these questions, and then you can MOVE ON"

Please Note: There will never be a satisfactory answer to "WHY?"

That way, the 30 minutes are productive. And not the same old, same old.

Once you start getting the facts, the process of recovery starts to speed up.

Make it "safe" for your husband to tell you the truth. Even if it is painful. But once it is all out, then you bandage up the wounds and they will start to heal.

LG

LG-
Thank you for the tip, wish I had read this earlier. Last night we basically set up the guidelines of what we wanted to accomplish as a result of our 30 min. talks.
Our goal to build a more intimate relationship where this will not happen again. He is working on expressing himself better, I on forgiveness and not dwelling on it. We have a workbook on building an intimate marriage- and I will incorporate some questions regarding the affair into the process. I have a couple I am going to email him- where he can answer this week.

I often feel I have beaten this affair to death, but then a new thought pops into my head- but I have this need to know. Here is how my brain works- last night I asked did you lay around saying things like- I wish I could be with you all night. His response- No, AM you know me better than anyone, if I can't open up to you like that - what would make you think I could with anyone.

Okay today my mind is thinking: did you have these feelings- but you were unable to express them, did she say things like that to you- yet you were unable to reply. How long did this happen with your wife? Beating a dead horse, because I know regardless of how he felt- he is here working on us- not there working on a relationship with her.

But he best reasons I can come up with for my need to know is: A. find out how emotionally connected they were- since FWH is ER (emotionally retarded) B. find out if he misses that relationship C. find out if they still communicate- or his desire to do so.

He has provided me the answers already to these exact questions- but it is like these other things creap in with the motive going back there. They are like sub test questions for the big primise behind the concept.

So I know the reason for me doing this- is not feeling safe in the relationship. How long did it take you wife, to feel safe, does she now? I know there is no one answer- and it depends on each situation- but I guess I need to hear that at some point I will not feel the need to test him with a battery of questions. I am sure he is waiting for that day too!

Thank you for all your wisdom and upfront answers-
AM