I have to run - I have a MC appointment....I will check back later....thank you so much for all of your wonderful advice, I hope for a better experience this time, now that I have "most" of the facts, we can move on from him molesting my SIL. Thanks again.

Set up an appointment w/ Dr. Harley.

He will help you sort through this.

He is an expert in this field.

Please call him.

~ Marsh

I would suggest that most many WS's don't respect their OW as a person. If they did, they wouldn't involve them in something as disgusting as an A, particularly if the OW was M'd to someone else.

I think it was an eye-opener for my FWW to realise how little the OM actually cared for her.

OK...why was there flirting?
Why the particular kind of flirting they engaged in (do you even know, exactly)?
How did "one thing lead to another?
What was he thinking when he put his hand on her stomach?
Why did he start moving his hand south?
Why did he break the barrier provided by her pants?
How long did this go on?
What was he thinking about at each stage?
Was he physically aroused?
What made him stop (thinking he might get caught, she shifted away, he heard a noise in the other room, he had to remove his hand to "adjust himself")?

Did he go in the room thinking about the lap dancing from the night before?
Did he dream about the lap dancing during the night?
Has he had other dreams about your SIL?
Has he ever thought about "what if" with her before...ever?
Did he view this as an encounter with a "bad girl" in contrast to your "good girl?"

And much, much more...do not give up the digging. It is better to exhaust yourself now digging the escape tunnel (I don't mean escape from the marriage) so you have clean air to breathe than it is to slowly suffocate to death.

Todd

How do you do that? I'm not sure. It took me 6 months to gather enough evidence to undeniably prove my W was having an affair, so I might not be the one to ask! :P

One thing that I strongly suspect: this wasn't thier first innapropriate contact. Perhaps it was the first physical contact, maybe even probably thier first physical contact given the strangeness of the situation and the fact that she was freaked out enough by it to say something. Have they been known to flirt in the past? Had a druken evening where they stayed up later than everyone else? I don't know the answer, but it seems likely to me that SOMETHING put the idea in your husbands head that she'd be amenable to him touching her. Something let her think at the time that it was ok. You're lucky as all get out that SHE was uncomfortable enough with what happened to tell her H about it!

I dunno, I just think there's more to the story.

I agree.

SadWife...I spent 7 years believing my wife had only kissed a man she met on a cruise. I ignored that gut feeling telling me there was more to it. I even felt like I had to grill her to get that snippet of truth. When I finally found out there was so much more, I was devastated all the more due to the passage of time. Don't make the mistake I did.

Todd

SW76:

Considering what happened on your thread, I'm really glad you are back!

Because the reason you came here in the first place was to understand what the heck went wrong that morning.



Your Husband KNEW this W. And has known her for years. What happened in that bedroom "just didn't happen"

It had been building for years.

Please read LilSis's FIRST thread. You do not have to read it all. Just the first three pages. Her H was MUCH more invovled with OW then yours was, but it all started innocently enough. Your H had the sense to WALK out of that room. LilSis's First Thread

But the actions of the LilSis's WH' OW were the same at the start.

If your MC is asking you to LET IT GO? The MC is right, He/She needs to be LET GO.

Call the Harleys. They will really start moving you in the right direction.

Your Husband has an issue with boundaries. The lap dances, the bedroom. These were areas that H faced a choice. Do I let her Lapdance? Do I touch her? Both times he said YES.

Your H was sending out vibes that it was OK for SIL to approach him. And when she really did, he said YES.

I understand this. I always thought I was just being "Nice" when I was friendly and sweet with women. I was issuing vibes. That it was OK. And then, I met someone who returned the vibes. I thought I was just being nice.

And then one day, she asked me: "Do you want to kiss me?"

I should have said NO. But I never realized the boundary issues that I had until I discovered this site.

Now? I KNOW a million miles away that a woman can become a danger to me. That my being "Nice" can be misconstrued by another person.

It seems that your H is doing the right things.

Remorse.
Being attentive to you.
Maybe attending MC with you.

Now he needs to start addressing what you really need to make your M take off.

"What happened in the bedroom?" The truth. He can not be afraid to "Hurt You" with the truth. He already has. Let's just put it behind us.
Confirmation of the above with SIL and Brother.
That's accountability.

Next? Why her? How did she get IN? What appealed to you? Would you recognize it earlier in the future? What would you do if you thought it was going the wrong way? Of course he didn't respect her as a person. He even lost his respect for himself. What does HE think he should do to get his respect back?

That's a start.

LG

SW,
Don't make the same mistake your B is making. He, in his horrible hurt is desperately trying to find a way to excuse his WW rather than doing the truly hard work of understanding the "why" and forgiving her for what she has done.

don't get sucked down the same tube. You cannot excuse your WH, but rather must make him understand why his M was vunerable enough for such an atrocity to happen in the first place. DO NOT EXCUSE HIM AS BEING TEMPORARILY INSANE! HE WAS NOT INSANE, BUT EXTREMELY VUNERABLE!!!!

The key to R is to find out why He was so vunerable. this will take a lot of hard work, but do not dismiss this.

Make him, and yourself, do the hard work of discovery about why he was so vunerable. It is the key to your R.

All Blessings,
Jerry

SO, I get this email from my SIL:

I want to be OK with you. I know more than that, if
> possible, will take time. It took us 12 years to
> get
> to what I consider good friends (the last year has
> been AWESOME), and I will wait 12 more years or more
> if that's what it takes. Just please tell me if
> what
> I want, your friendship

This is what I write her back:

I am not sure really what to say at this point.
> Right now, I am focusing
> on making my marriage better and stronger. I want
> to grow from this
> experience and not have this whole thing define who
> I am and what I will be
> for the rest of my life. I want to be better for
> this and I want Mike and
> I to be better for this, that is my priority right
> now.
>
> I honestly haven't given much thought to whether I
> am "okay" with you. I
> want to make something very clear to you, I do not
> hold only you
> responsible, both of you were very much in the
> wrong. Do I think you guys
> acted on impulse and that neither one of you meant
> for any of this to
> happen, absolutely, does that make it okay, NO WAY!!
> Right now, in my
> mind, you are "the other woman". Just seeing or
> hearing your name, makes
> my stomach drop......I want that feeling to go
> away!!!!
>
> I am terribly hurt right now, that either one of you
> could betray me this
> way, is something I cannot even comprehend, so it's
> hard for me to sit here
> and say we can be "friends". Maybe in time that
> will come. I will be
> civil and be as normal as I possibly can, but right
> now my focus has to lie
> with me and Mike. I think this is all still too raw
> for me to say one way
> or another that things are going to ever be the
> same, and I hope you can
> appreciate and understand where I am coming from.

THEN THIS IS WHAT SHE WRITES ME AFTER:
I appreciate your honesty, and for telling me exactly
where I stand. The fact that I am now known as the
"other woman" brings me to tears, especially in my
dealings with you, my sister. Please know these
things as fact:

1. I don't (and never did) see myself as being
attractive enough to have an oppurtunity to become the
slut I acted like. Passable, yes. Maybe even
girl-next-door. But I hold you in high regard as the
beauty I won't ever be, and I have tried to come to
terms with that. I guess I'm not there yet.

2. I HATE myself for not being the Christian that I
believe I am, for no longer being able to be a role
model for my children, for breaking the heart of the
man that shares my heart, life and my bed, for losing
the trust of exactly everyone in your family, for
being so weak and needy (not worthy) of attention that
this happened, for wishing for things to go back to
normal when they never will be again, for seriously
considering ending my life when I have 2 beautiful
children that need me (or what's left of me), for
causing you to feel that you are somehow less
attractive than you genuinely are (ask anyone on this
planet), and for feeling sorry for myself when it is
all my fault.

2. I woke up that morning, and every morning, with no
thoughts about Mike in any way, ESPECIALLY not
sexually. I still don't think of Mike that way, if
you are worried.

3. When I pray for healing in my marriage, I also
pray for yours.

Thank you for even taking the time to respond to me, I
wasn't sure you would.



NOW....is it just me, or does she sound like she wants me to feel sorry for her??????HELP PLEASE

SW,

You must set the example for what no contact means. Tell her that you never want her to contact you or your H in any way.

Tell her, that she is dead to you.

Yes, she is trying to manipulate you, by telling you how badly she feels so that you will stop thinking ill of her.

The idea that she would have the nerve to ask you to make her feel better about herself, after what she did, really sickens me.

Please, SW, establish no contact w/ this OW.

~ Marsh

Wow... sounds like she definitely had a part in what went down. No sexual assault her like some thought.

She actually said she considered taking her life??? Serious self esteem issues at play her, which are none of your concern.

Like you told her, you and your H are your priority right now.

Yes......I am starting to almost find this laughable, like she wants me to feel sorry for her and feel guilty for how SHE has been feeling....If only she wasn't my B wife, it would be so much easier to walk away.....ahhhh.....

She IS trying to manipulate YOU with HER guilt. I'm glad you finally got the truth about what happened. Now you can start the healing (either way).

((((SadWife)))

I'm soooo glad you came back. I'm Jewel and I had a similar situation to you in the fact that the OW was a family member too. I haven't posted my story because it's so much more terrible to cope with this type of betrayal when it's family. It makes he** seem like a cozy, warm vacation spot.

My circumstances were different from yours since I didn't find out until about 26 mos after the incident that my h had made a pass at my sister. I found out from my cousins jerk boyfriend and the family story is that my H and S actually had a week + long affair. Given the truth trickle that I got from my H, I'm going to make him take a polygraph and I'm 5 yrs out from dday.

On dday, my H told me that nothing happened other than he made a pass at my sister. She cussed me out on the phone when I called her and asked why she had never told me. She denied it and I told her that my H was right there telling me what he did. She continued to curse me and then she hung up the phone.

In the meantime, my mom showed up at my doorstep. (I had called her earlier to see if my H had stopped by before going to his second job. My mom heard how upset I was in my voice and asked me what was wrong. I told her what I had been told by the coz's boyfriend. So, my mom decided to head over to my home unbeknown to me.)

My mom proceeds to come in and yell at me, "Don't yell at him, nothing happened. He didn't do anything wrong." I can't repeat here what my response to her was, but it was the 1st time I ever gave my mom such disrespect.

My sister ended up back on the phone and was cussing me out some more. I was telling her that my H and mom are there at the house. Stupid me, I gave the phone to my H and my sister got perfectly quiet with H. We heard her comment, "Are you daft?" to him but she spoke quietly after that. She did the talking. I really regret that.

Because of my experience above, I raised the flag of concern regarding your SIL telling your H before she told you. I thought that in both cases, yours and mine, that looks like a possible cover up.

MY H stuck to the story that it was a one time thing and nothing else had ever happened. He even said this to our pastor, during the only opportunity, at that time, he would have for someone to give us counsel. (We were struggling financially due to slow economy. We had spent all of our savings while H had gone back to school for job re-training. Had no health ins.)

Well, 8 mos after dday, my sis gets her a$$ thrown in jail after fighting with her married, live-in BF. The judge had ordered no contact between her and the BF, but she found out she was expecting a blessing while waiting for the BF to get the charges of domestic violence dropped against her. My mistake was re-iterating to her what the judge had said. I did not want her going to jail for violating the judge's orders. She got pi$$ed at me and told me that I needed to get my house in order first, before I told anybody else how to get theirs, because she had to "tolerate my H standing over her, making sexual advances at her."

My response to her (my mom was on the other line also listening) was that if the 2 b1tches on the phone with me had told me when this originally happened and when I had $$$ in the bank, it wouldn't have been tolerated. But thanks for bringing it up. However, stay away from BF unless you want to go back to jail.

After hanging up, I promptly called H over and questioned him. He admitted to flirting and 1 incident of inapropriate touching. We fought that night but my H still told me he didn't know the how's and why's of what he did. He still denied and used "I don't remember" and I don't know why" as excuses.

About 18 mos after dday, he drove over to my sis's house. Thank God she had enough sense to tell me immediately. I know that nothing went on there that day because she was on the way to my place when he got to her place. (She was loading up her baby in the car.) But he still made excuses and another major ugly fight occurred.

To make a long story short, I'm 5 yrs out from dday. MY H has finally admitted that he flirted and made the advance because he ultimately figured I would have never found out. He was going to have his cake and eat it too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Please, don't make yourself live in the emotional ****** I've lived in for the past 5 years. This has been one helluva long plan A. I thought it was that my H had problems stemming from his childhood. Horse patties. It was cake eating, plain and simple. Both of our H's know what they were thinking when they did what they pulled.

I'm not sure that my H and sister didn't have something more. I'm not making a judgement call in your H's case. That's something you've got to decide for yourself. But I can say this much. Your family, like mine, has terrible boundaries and inter-personal relationship skills. You might want to consider the advice my pastor gave to me right in front of my H, and that's keep your H away from your family.

There's something wrong when your brother thinks it's okay. Seriously, don't sweep this under the rug. Go no contact with B and SIL. Yes, it's painful, but it has to be done. Also, until H goes to counseling, even after he does, write down the ???'s the MBers have asked, like how did the flirting happen in the first place? Have your H answer them. Like my IC told me, "I don't know" or "I can't remember" aren't acceptable answers. He's a grown man who decided to behave the way he did. You're confused and sad because H has the answers, but he doesn't want to give them. He doesn't want to deal with it. You on the other hand, deserve the honest truth.

Keeping you in my prayers!

Jewel

T/J moment: Sorry Sad, but any of our fellow MBers that have ???s or advice, I'm going to try to post this under Jewel's story.