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#1967507 11/07/07 07:54 AM
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I am new to this website and am not familiar with all the abbreviations, but have read some of the threads. I have read Harley's book.

My wife and I have been married 12 years and have 3 kids ages 11, 10, and 6. My wife started an affair 1 year ago, and told me about it in February, saying she thought we should get divorced, that she had been lonely and unhappy in our marriage for years, that she had found her soulmate, etc, etc, etc. Much to her surprise, I did not react in anger but said I wanted to save the marriage despite our past.

To make a long story short, we are still married, but she cannot give up this relationship. Their relationship now is almost entirely talking on the phone on the way to or way back from work, and emails at work (they work in different places). I suspect they meet a couple times a week during their commutes, but it can't be for more than a few minutes at a time. We have so much going on with the kids there really is no opportunity for her to spend much time with him.

But over the last 9 months, she has not been able or willing to relinquish this relationship with someone she calls her "best friend". She is seeing a therapist, but isn't ready to see someone together with me. We tried that a couple times early on but she was emotional and uncomfortable. My wife is a very conflict-averse person. I believe this is one of the core issues of the situation we are in. She cannot bring herself to hurt her "friend" nor can she bring herself to hurt me by making a decision one way of the other. She says she loves me and is staying in the marriage for now because I am trying so hard, but she gave her heart to someone else and cannot will it back, and that it has to happen naturally.

My question is this:

She has a notion of romantic love that is perpetual, conflict-free. She believes she has met that unique individual who is right for her, with whom she has connected with like no other.

All of this has been incredibly painful for me, but I have over the last 9 months evolved into a much better father (I always did as much for the kids as she did, now I do much more), and much better husband, which she absolutely acknowledges and appreciates.

Their relationship, I believe, is one based on very immature and unrealistic concepts of love and relationships. They have not experienced the reality of living together, seen each other's flaws, had opportunities for conflicts and disagreements, etc. Our kids do not know what is going on, and in fact, probably think our marriage is better than ever. She refuses to move out, knowing that it will jeopardize her custody situation if we get divorced (on advice from her attorney). How does one implement plan B in this situation?

ewmec #1967508 11/07/07 08:07 AM
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You don't need Plan B, you need Plan A! Have you exposed her affair? Is the OM married? Have you exposed the affair to all your family and your children? Affairs thrive on secrecy and exposure is the most potent weapon you have.

Here is an outline of Plan A:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #1967509 11/07/07 05:01 PM
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Hi, I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation and although it may seem hopeless at times, it does improve when you impliment Harley's plans.

I would have to agree with Mel on this as exposure is like a poison to affairs. Your WW will hate it and you for a while, but once the false fantasy is exposed it will die a slow death.

Plan B is only effective when a solid Plan A has been implimented and although it sounds as though you have been good at providing the "carrot" of Plan A, I belive it would be more effective to give your WW the "stick" also. That will require exposure of her A to all that can help apply pressure to end it. It really does work.


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
My Story
My struggle with an EA
HopeThisWorks #1967510 11/07/07 05:09 PM
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EXPOSE!!!

hopeandpray #1967511 11/07/07 05:20 PM
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You've got everything analyzed pretty well, friend, except that Plan B without a good Plan A is actually a Plan D. Now, are you willing to actually DO something about the continued adultery? Sir, you need to start with Step #1 and expose this adultery to the light of day. Stop concealing it. Adulteries thrive in secrecy and darkness. Your children need to know what is going on in their lives. Yes, THEIR lives. Do NOT assume they haven't got an inkling something untoward is going on. Kids are smart.

Longhorn #1967512 11/09/07 04:32 AM
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I have been implementing plan A for the last several months. In fact, she was first surprised, then disbelieving that it was sustainable, and now appreciative. She says if I had been like this earlier, it all would never have happened. She says the problem is not with me but with her, that she doesn't trust herself to be able to not want to be with her boyfriend, not want to talk to him, not feel regret that she had given up the perfect partner.

Her family know about the situation. She confided in her mom before she told me. Her parents have come down unequivocably on my side, and have told her she is doing the wrong thing, and failing to live up to her commitments, but she has basically told them that she also has a right to her own happiness. So they have basically avoided talking about this particular topic.

I have not dragged our kids into this. I am trying to protect them as long as possible from a situation that can only traumatize them, and which they cannot do anything about. This is also the advice of psychologists and lawyers.

She has confided in a couple of her coworkers, who also have unanimously advised her the same way -- give up the affair, work on your marriage. But she finds a way to rationalize that the advice she is getting doesn't apply to her. She is also seeing a therapist, but there doesn't seem to be much progress.

The bottom line is that she has a fantasy -- call it a hope, a dream, an idealistic notion -- that is very powerful, but is unlikely to survive time and reality. I have done everything I can think of to meet her emotional needs. More time may help, but at some point one runs out of patience, and out of respect, including self-respect, in this situation. I understand the principle of Plan B, including the risk involved. But how does one do this when kids are involved, and neither spouse will move out?

ewmec #1967513 11/09/07 06:59 AM
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speak with your lawyers about you seeking sole custody...

speak with your lawyers about seeking clauses that while seprating your children will have no exposure/overnights with strangers....

is he married...does his wife know

ARK

ark^^ #1967514 11/09/07 10:59 AM
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Pardner, she's exposed herself only to those who will not put pressure on her. You need to expand the envelope of people who know about the adultery and can express disapproval--or the fantasy bubble will never be broken. Were I you, I'd formally advise the Human Relations director where she works, along with her immediate supervisor because they are probably carrying on this adultery using company phones, email, etc.

Who else can apply pressure? Your pastor? How about the OM's boss and family? Sit down and figure out who has the potential to make a difference.

Also, you're dead wrong about exposing to your children. They ALREADY know something is amiss. If you don't tell them, you are (a) letting them live with a vague guilt they have done something wrong themselves, and (b) you're shielding your adulterous wife from having to face some of the consequences of her adultery.

When my wife was cheating, my four-year-old daughter (at the time) knew something was badly wrong in what mommy was doing, but she didn't know what. My daughter is 39 now, and has spent thousands and thousands of dollars on counseling and therapy, but she still can't stand to be in the same room with her mother. She's tried to commit suicide on at least one occasion I know of, and her personal relationships with men have been a total disaster. Do you seriously want to subject your children to that kind of life?

Expose, Mister. It's your best weapon at this point.

LH

ewmec #1967515 11/09/07 02:51 PM
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Ewmec,

""The bottom line is that she has a fantasy -- call it a hope, a dream, an idealistic notion -- that is very powerful, but is unlikely to survive time and reality.""

There it is, you've said it yourself!! You have to expose to someone that has some influence with the OM. That is how the fantasy will pop and the reality will come flooding in.

How much do you know about the low life? And we say low life because he is messing with a married woman.

Many have asked you about him and you seem to be avoiding that question. Have you ever confronted him? Called him?

Do some detective work. Or hire one.

This situation must be intolerable for you, and I don't see it ending without some action on your part.

Stay strong and good luck.

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
krusht #1967516 11/09/07 03:10 PM
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I know you haven't posted much, so maybe you'll say more. But so far it sounds like you've got the "carrot" part of plan A and none of the "stick". I would fix that part before going to plan B.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #1967517 11/12/07 06:09 AM
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The OM is another professional in her line of work who works at a different hospital (they are both doctors, as am I). She met him at a professional meeting 2 years ago. She started going on bike rides together and it escalated about a year and a half ago. They went to a professional meeting together in Jan 07. He is married (18 years 3 kids) and lives in our town. He has moved out of his house but sees his family almost everyday.

I talk with his wife occasionallly and she is going through the same thing -- dealing with a spouse who thinks they have found their soulmate, who can provide eternal romantic love without any conflict, criticism, or hurt, because the are so connected, so alike. They are seeing therapists and counselors, as have we, but neither my wife nor OM will agree to terminate their relationship. Without that action, as all the books say and what is obvious even without books, one cannot say that the marriage is on the mend. She says she is trying, by staying married to me, by not having sex with him, by not spending more time with him, but she she says cannot control the feeling she has for him, and cannot see the possibility of never talking to him again, and cannot see the possibility of us having a healthy marriage with me because she will always be in love with him. We have had this conversation dozens of times in the last 9 months, and she is stuck in this way of thinking.

One dynamic that has changed is our relationship, and her perception of me. Over the years of our marriage, she took each criticism and disagreement from me, and any negative behavior, and formed an impression of me of someone who didn't like her very much, didn't love her as a "best friend" but viewed her as just a partner in raising our kids and getting through life. She respected and admired positive things about me, and just figured she had married someone who didn't fulfill the romantic "best friend" hope that she had, and figured she would make the best of it. Because she has a very non-confrontational and conflict-avoiding personality, she never really brought it up very forcefully. In fact, one of her therapists told her, "You mean, the first time you told him you were unhappy was when you said you wanted a divorce?"

Our kids are magnificent -- smart, funny, full of life, personality and energy. Everyone says kids know more than you think, and that is probably true. But we have never had much open conflict between us, and for the last 9 months, we have on the surface been much more affectionate with each other. If we can get through this it is possible for them to never know. If we can't they will find out eventually. But to use them as a tool at this point is something I don't think is right.

Many of you have advised exposure. I don't think it will work in my case. Each time I have tried to put pressure on her, it has reminded her of the past, and reinforced her negative impressions that she formed over the years, that I want to control things, that I am mean and don't care about hurting her feelings. I would say that one of the things holding us together right now is her realization that her perception of me from the past does not correspond with how I am behaving through all of this, that her anticipation of how I would react was completely wrong. To go on a campaign of exposure would set it all back, and perhaps result in driving her out of the marriage. She would say, "I knew that was the real him."

She already feels guilty and hypocritical about her situation. She just doesn't have the strength or a firm enough conviction of what the right thing to do is to do something about it (either way). Much of that derives from her notion of what her relationship and life with him will be, and hence the original question I posed -- how can one implement plan B -- letting her get a dose of reality -- when I have kids I want to protect and she won't move out?

ewmec #1967518 11/12/07 01:54 PM
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You aren't going to like this. Read on at your own risk.

Absolutely everything you wrote above is standard affair fog-speak, friend -- both on your part and hers. You're both so deep in the fog it's incredible.

Let’s get some things straight here. You don’t seem to understand some basics and I don’t know how to make it pretty.

Get over yourself, bub. There's absolutely NOTHING new in what you're dealing with. On the contrary, your situation is depressingly ordinary. Everything you’re hearing for the first time…well, we’ve seen and heard it all before. You need to get over the idea that your particular situation is unique, deserves out of the ordinary consideration, and requires a distinctive solution. Actually, the standard Harley program would have a pretty good chance, as it has in every instance of infidelity.

You've bought in to her argument, haven’t you? Wow! And you're willing to protect her while she continues to commit adultery on top of that? Gosh, adulterers can’t ask for anything more than that. Whew!

Hey, let’s forget about you saving your marriage—you don’t seem willing to do anything about that—but it’s a crying shame you also don’t seem to care that you’re creating untold problems for your children later in their life. Think of it this way. With their mother’s inappropriate conduct as a role model and your acquiescence in the whole thing, what kind of standards are you two setting for your kids?

Exposure won’t work for you? That’s a prime example of bovine scatology, mister. Pardner, exposure is about the ONLY thing that will have the slightest affect on this obscenity.

Just one question, pardner. If you don’t get proactive, just what the he11 ARE you going to do?

Longhorn #1967519 11/12/07 05:26 PM
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It's not a choice. She doesn't get to make a choice about giving up "her relationship". This is about your children as well as you and your M. Let the chips fall where she laid them. Expose the immorality and unethical behavior of your WW and the OM. The hospital is rampant with this type of behavior, and none of us watching it care for it. Expose them and let the rest of us tell them exactly how we feel about their value systems. Your children deserve better and so do the patients. I don't want a Dr. whose values are so low. I want a Dr. who is morally sound and will do the right thing. Her behavior in this proves she is unwilling to be ethical at work as well.

Fled (anesthesia)


Me BS
D Day 4-2-2005
OC born 12-2004
DS 21, DS 12
Married 1993

May the love hidden deep inside your heart find the love waiting in your dreams. May the laughter that you find in your tomorrow wipe away the pain you find in your yesterdays.

Recovering....it's a long road, even with a dedicated FWH
Longhorn #1967520 11/12/07 05:43 PM
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Yep, as much as you aren't going to like hearing this...
.
NOTHING is going to get better until you expose this A and break it up. You've been doing this for NINE MONTHS already?!?!?!

If Plan A'ing her for 9 months has not convinced her to end her A, what WILL???

How long are you going to do this?

Right now she is one d*mn lucky woman...she has TWO MEN meeting all of her ENs, and they are BOTH accepting only crumbs from her, because you are both TOLERATING it.

Knock it off, get some self-respect, and expose this A. It is your only hope at this point my friend, unless you want to go straight to Plan D.

And like Longhorn said, everything your WW has said about her "best friend", "soulmate", the romantic notions of love...yep, we've heard it ALL. We've LIVED it.

It's the same old bullsh*t every wayward spouse and the "other person" spouts off. Your wife and the OM are no different.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
MarriedForever #1967521 11/12/07 05:50 PM
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Here are a coupla links to my exposure threads [note: I exposed after a 10-month false recovery...the first time I found out I did not know about MB, and if I had exposed that time, I believe the A would have ended then. As it was, it ended the DAY I did this exposure: ]

My Exposure Thread #1
My Exposure Thread #2


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
MarriedForever #1967522 12/03/07 01:29 PM
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Despite the strong advice from several of you further expose my wife's affair, I have not done this. She has already confided in the people in her life whose opinion she considers important, and has already heard unanimously from them that what she is doing is wrong, and that she should stop the relationship completely, or she risks losing her marriage to me, hurting the children, losing their respect, and ultimagely her own happiness. I have told her, in a quiet but unambiguous tone, that she is maintaining a situation that is incompatible with a marriage, and that I cannot accept it. I told her that it is only through my love for her and my desire to hold our family together that I have been able to stick it out this long, but that I can't keep doing it for much longer, and that with each day she doesn't say it is over, some of that love drains away. Last night, she said she is really trying, and that she was going to stop visiting him, and stop talking to him on the way to and back from work. Of course I realize that this may be another deception, or that she cannot sustain this, but it is possibly a step in the right direction, even if is not the definitive cutting off. She has said that she doesn't want to tell me that it is cut off until she is sure that she will not relapse which would hurt me all over again. Some of you may think I am naive and clinging to false hope, but I do not believe that I am in a position of much leverage in this horrible situation. My wife is financially independent. She is a woman, so she has the advantage in a contested custody situation. I think the only real leverage is reality itself, i.e., when I give up, whether because I can't stand it any more, have been drained of love and respect for her, or realize that she cannot find a way to stop her relationship and commit to ours, I will start moving toward divorce. At that point, we will be starting a process from which reconciliation is almost impossible. The only thing short of that, and the original reason I posted my story, is a plan B that lets her get a dose of reality of life without me and with him, at the risk of ending the marriage. But she will not move out, at least not without the kids part of the time, so how does one do that in this situation?
Please do not think I am some kind of doormat who has no self-respect, or that I am not angry or frustrated by this situation. It's just that I appreciate that there is a lot of complexity in human emotions and what defines relationships, and it does require patience and calm and considered words and thoughts. Anger is usually not a productive emotion, and probably almost never is in these situations.


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