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#1967871 11/08/07 01:33 AM
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Hello Folks,

I am new here and have a thread in the Pregnant/Child section (lucky me!). But had a question that I wanted more general feedback on.

My wife had 3 or 4 EM encounters over our 6+ years together (and yes, the last ending in pregnancy). But she has had tons of online conversations that involved sex, cybersex, planning to get together for sex (most meetings never making it into reality) and other communications that most of us would find questionable at the very least for a woman in a monogamous relationship.

These chats are all logged and I have been reading them over the past 2-3 weeks. At first she was basically ok with me doing it. Over the last week she has begun to ask me to stop. Me quoting them or now even just reading them is really bothering her.

I tell her that I am learning and they have helped us get to this point, which is true. They have helped correct her very faulty memory and helped answer some very important questions. But she feels they are reminding her of a part of herself she is very uncomfortable with and that I am hitting her over the head with them (I am some, but not as much as she feels it).

She feels it is doing some bad things to her mentally and driving space between us. She has gotten to the point this evening of telling me if I don't stop reading them she would think about leaving. She asked me to delete them as well.

Any thoughts?


Me-BS: 40 WW: 30 OC: >1yr D-Day WW confessed: 10-6-07 (had no clue) STATUS: Some counseling/lots of talking
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I believe you have the right to know everything you feel you need to know.

I guess the question is if knowing is worth the cost. Is what is in those chats worth upsetting your W? It might well be, and it might be that she deserves to be upset as well. Reminding her of a part of herself that she is uncomfortable with is not YOUR fault or the chats fault. Those chats are the reality of what she did, you reading them or not doesn't change it.

I would say that if you're going to read them, read them and be done with it, or put them away for a while and read them later, perhaps without rubbing it in her face that you are doing so. Sounds like right now you have other things to focus on. You know what your W has done and the focus now should be shifting towards recovery. I understand you wanting to read them, I'm just not sure its really helping and appears in fact to be hurting, which means that for at least right now its not worth it.

See what others think!

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I'm a bit confused as to your current situation. While she may not be sexually active with another man, due to the pregnancy, is she still actively engaging in these chats?
Or are you "in recovery" now and she feels that your interest in keeping these chat logs is detrimental to your recovery.

Its extremely worrisome that she has had 3-4 extramarital affairs in your 6 years of marriage. I believe that this board teaches that serial adultery needs to be handled differently than the typical affair. The chances of reforming a serial adulterer are MUCH, MUCH lower.

Personally, to me it sounds like she just doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions. That is NOT her call. The only reason to stop examining the past (the chat logs) is if you believe she is truly dedicated to rebuilding your marriage. At that point it could become counterproductive.

The point, though, is that SHE needs to earn her way back into the marriage. She does not get to dictate terms for your behavior when she is a serial adulterer. If discussing the past is one of your requirements for healing, relay that to her and hold her to it. Force her to behave to a higher standard. Don't lower your standards for her.

As a final dose of reality, this woman has had 3-4 adulterous affairs in the first 6 years of marriage. Do you have kids with her? If not, I recommend that you cut your losses and leave. It is very unlikely that she will reform given the nature of her serial adultery. You will have all these affairs to recover from and the additional lifelong reminder of her child from another man. Its your call, but I want you to realistically evaluate what you are in for.


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Yes, what andrew said is much better!

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As the BH, you get to decide whether you want to reconcile or not, and you have the right to know ALL of the information to be able to make that decision. If that bothers your WW ... TOUGH!!!

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Thank you Andrew and Tyk. I will try and respond to your points.

Yes, she was engaged in the sex chats with a few guys sporadically while pregnant and up to the last 2 months. (the significant man she had these with is the OC's father, but there were others). None of these sex chats were quite compulsive, I mean not on a daily or even weekly basis, but I do not mean to minimize by this comment, just put it in perspective. Now in recovery she has not had sex chats or many chats at all and has NC with any of these men, including the OM.

When I say she has had 3-4 extra-marital encounters I mean that literally—encounters. Meaning she went out and had sex 3-4 times TOTAL over 6+ years. This was with 2 different men, once with one man and 2 or 3 times with the other (this is the OC child's father). She knew both of these men prior to meeting me, and the OM and she briefly dated 1 year prior to our meeting. So again, not to defend anything here, but it was not quite like she was going out and picking up strangers in bars in real life (the chats that stayed as fantasy did involve a number of guys over the years however).

While W has been very forthcoming with all correspondences (chats, blogs, text messages, etc.) over the first two weeks of recovery, she is now feeling my reading them (now in the 3rd week of recovery) is causing her to back-peddle and loose progress she/we have made. I do not feel that myself, I feel the contrary. But I can see it may be affecting her differently.

I do believe she is sincere and actively trying to move things ahead in a positive way. So perhaps as you both point out, putting the logs on hold at least may be a good idea for a time. At this point I know mostly what happened—having a transcript of so much of it is ...interesting, for lack of a better word.

There is another element that may be playing a part in her new issue with the logs. I have just started talking about informing any mate of any guy she has been carrying on with in significant ways. Both of the men she slept with were single, but many of the cybersex men are not. Some are asking her to meet them all the time (which she has not done) and regularly talk about leaving their wives for her. I tend to think these men's wives should be informed—I would want to be. (I have no interest in informing on anyone that just had some casual cyber sex, only those that cross reasonable boundaries).

This OC is our first child, so leaving the M in a clean way is an option. I/we are trying to make this work, but D is an option.


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I would not persue further exposure at this point, if your wife is sincerely trying to work on things, because there really is no point in it. Yes, these OMW's have a right to know, but at some point you just have to move on. I would suggest closing her chat accounts to prevent further contact, then I would install a stealthy keylogger on the machine (if you haven't already), just in case.

I really hope you are correct about your W's intentions as you are getting ready to take on a very serious responsibility. It seems to me that she has a very strong incentive for you to believe that she is sincere.

The more I think about it I think that you play this by your rules. You've got alot on the line here and you need to be entirely satisfied imo.

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Quote
Yes, she was engaged in the sex chats with a few guys sporadically while pregnant and up to the last 2 months. (the significant man she had these with is the OC's father, but there were others). None of these sex chats were quite compulsive, I mean not on a daily or even weekly basis, but I do not mean to minimize by this comment, just put it in perspective. Now in recovery she has not had sex chats or many chats at all and has NC with any of these men, including the OM.

Are you sure about that? Do you have a keylogger installed? If not, I would recommend it right away. Also, if my wife was involved in internet affairs like that, I would take steps to control her access to it. Disconnecting service would be one end of the spectrum. Password protecting the pc would be another.

Quote
When I say she has had 3-4 extra-marital encounters I mean that literally—encounters. Meaning she went out and had sex 3-4 times TOTAL over 6+ years. This was with 2 different men, once with one man and 2 or 3 times with the other (this is the OC child's father). She knew both of these men prior to meeting me, and the OM and she briefly dated 1 year prior to our meeting. So again, not to defend anything here, but it was not quite like she was going out and picking up strangers in bars in real life (the chats that stayed as fantasy did involve a number of guys over the years however).

Semantics. It doesn't matter what you call them, they were all emotional affairs and some were physical. Truthfully though, the fact that the guys she slept with were old friends or ex-lovers will make it harder for her to give them up due to the emotional attachment.

Quote
While W has been very forthcoming with all correspondences (chats, blogs, text messages, etc.) over the first two weeks of recovery, she is now feeling my reading them (now in the 3rd week of recovery) is causing her to back-peddle and loose progress she/we have made. I do not feel that myself, I feel the contrary. But I can see it may be affecting her differently.

You are only 3 weeks into recovery of your latest D-day. I think you really need to get your wife to this site to educate herself on what happens to the BS in the aftermath of an affair. If she is TRULY interested in recovery and not just placating you, she should be willing to come here and learn. Truthfully though, you have described a woman who is sorry she got caught, not sorry that she is a serial adulterer and has caused you loads of pain. Wow, 3 weeks and she is trying to dictate terms. That is some gall right there.

Quote
I do believe she is sincere and actively trying to move things ahead in a positive way. So perhaps as you both point out, putting the logs on hold at least may be a good idea for a time. At this point I know mostly what happened—having a transcript of so much of it is ...interesting, for lack of a better word.

I disagree. Do not internalize your emotions to protect your wife from facing the consequences of her actions. They will only fester inside you as you start to feel how unreasonable she is and how you are shouldering the burden of this recovery. You will grow to resent her. Deal with all of this now! Delaying this and revisiting it later will bring you back to early recovery anyways.

Quote
There is another element that may be playing a part in her new issue with the logs. I have just started talking about informing any mate of any guy she has been carrying on with in significant ways. Both of the men she slept with were single, but many of the cybersex men are not. Some are asking her to meet them all the time (which she has not done) and regularly talk about leaving their wives for her. I tend to think these men's wives should be informed—I would want to be. (I have no interest in informing on anyone that just had some casual cyber sex, only those that cross reasonable boundaries).

Absolutely do this. By exposing to the "mates" of the people she had affairs with, you enforce some protection from the other end that those guys won't try and attempt to restart contact with your wife. Its not about revenge. Its about exposing the affairs to everyone who can help ensure no contact is made. By not exposing, those men are under no pressure to avoid contact with your wife. They will be there whenever she decides she needs to talk to them again.
Also, no contact means that she will never see or speak to them again or you risk recurrence of the affair. Make that one of your boundaries. If you cave to her on that, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Quote
This OC is our first child, so leaving the M in a clean way is an option. I/we are trying to make this work, but D is an option.

But are you sure that your wife is really trying to make this work? Have you thought about the fact that she may just need someone to help support her and this other child? Unless the OM is a total deadbeat, you will never be able to ensure NC between her and him. That is an enormous commitment for you take on. Are you prepared to raise another man's child with a serial adulterer?

Not trying to be harsh, just trying to inject some cold hard truth.


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I think andrew makes some very good points all the way through but think the purpose of exposure needs to be examined.

My understanding is that the purpose of exposure is to STOP the A. If WC believes the A's have stopped and has taken measures to verify that is true then further exposure is not necessary and if it isn't necessary then it is not being used as intended, right?

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She doesn't want you to read the logs because she wants to continue her actions or not have consequences to the actions she already completed. Either way, she isn't in a position to call the shots. Where is the sperm donor? Is he out of the picture? He has a right to know that he is a dad.

This is a very complex situation. Most likely she will not become a responsible adult without counseling, and a lot of it.

Tyk #1967881 11/08/07 10:56 AM
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Quote
My understanding is that the purpose of exposure is to STOP the A. If WC believes the A's have stopped and has taken measures to verify that is true then further exposure is not necessary and if it isn't necessary then it is not being used as intended, right?

Tyk,
I understand what you are saying. If the affair is indeed over, then there is no need for exposure. In this case though, it sounds like he has confronted his wife over and over again throughout their 6 year marriage. And she has continued to intermittently engage in cyber-sex or the real thing and she now has a kid to show for it.

Based on past history, he would be incredibly naive to believe that in the last 3 weeks she has reformed from her past 6 years of behavior. I'm not saying that she might not be telling the truth this time, but I am saying that he owes it to himself to try and remove the possibility of contact from the other end of the equation.

Exposure helps cut ties to the multiple OM and ensure no contact. The only reason she can have to protest this exposure is because she wants to hide from the consequences or because she wants to leave the relationships open for future contact.

It sounds like he has given in to her several times through this marriage and not pushed her to change and live her life at a higher standard. Its time to change the status quo.


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Hello,

No, I have had no knowledge of anything until this month. It is all new to me. I should also note that at least one and maybe 2 of the encounters were during or just after a time in our first year where we were separated for a few months. So in fairness this may bring the encounters down.

We were also living together and not married when the last one happened. However it happened as we were planning our wedding! I read good and bad into this.

I would not go too far into the exposure topic, it is an aside at any rate.

You all make good points about whether she should dictate my reading the logs. Despite the physical encounters and the child, most of the cheating was done online.

We have severely curtailed her list of people she can chat with to mother and 2-3 known friends. Not a single of those guys are allowed.


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I would continue to monitor her chats (with keylogging software) until she has proven over a reasonable amount of time that she isn't engaging in sex chats anymore. The fact that she doesn't want you to check anymore and delete the old ones, leads me to believe that she may try to continue and just do a better job of hiding it from you. It is her sex chats that are driving a wedge between the two of you, not you checking up on her.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
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At the very least make her close her old accounts and make new ones. This will at least prevent the OM from contacting her and triggering a relapse.

Tyk #1967885 11/08/07 02:03 PM
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WithChild,
I just read your other post in the Pregnancy forum and I think you might do well to include some of that information into your first post here. It paints a much more complete picture and will help you get more helpful answers here.

After reading it, I think your biggest problem is your wife's lack of ownership of the damage she has done. To really progress your recovery, you may just need to help her understand the dynamics of an affair and the effect it has on the betrayed spouse. Is she willing to do some reading? If you can open her eyes to what the BS deals with in the aftermath of the affair, her attitude may quickly change.

Maybe you could even strike a deal with her. You will forego looking at the chat logs anymore (but not delete) if she in turn agrees to read and discuss some books of your choosing.


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Withchild,

I haven't posted to you on P/C, but have read your posts. I wanted to comment on something that struck me, and please take note that I am by the FWW and FBW and we are raising the OC as ours. Now, this is what struck me:

Quote
These chats are all logged and I have been reading them over the past 2-3 weeks. At first she was basically ok with me doing it. Over the last week she has begun to ask me to stop. Me quoting them or now even just reading them is really bothering her.

I tell her that I am learning and they have helped us get to this point, which is true. They have helped correct her very faulty memory and helped answer some very important questions. But she feels they are reminding her of a part of herself she is very uncomfortable with and that I am hitting her over the head with them (I am some, but not as much as she feels it).

She feels it is doing some bad things to her mentally and driving space between us. She has gotten to the point this evening of telling me if I don't stop reading them she would think about leaving. She asked me to delete them as well.

Any thoughts?


The whole thing, but mainly the bold portion is what caught my eye. When the WS is in the beginning stages of recovery, it is difficult to have it "hit them over the head" every time they turn around. I know, being the BS how hard it is on your side for recovery, BELIEVE ME, I know! I also know how hard it is to forgive YOURSELF when you are the WS. Now, I am NOT excusing her behavior, but maybe you could stop quoting what she's written, to her, what seems like all the time. I'm sure she's repeating it all in her mind and that's a lot of why she feels you are constantly reminding her of it.

Our counselor has recommended that we choose one day, and a couple hours or so to discuss the issue, but then we HAVE to have a time, alone, where we don't talk at all about what's happened. It's hard, I know, cause as the BS you want to know EVERYTHING! But, if you wait till you've cooled off(from a trigger or whatever) you will have a much better perspective on things, and where/what/how you can move on from there.

My most recent situation is that I HAD to get rid of a lot of stuff, information and such that I was holding on to. This was as the BS, when I was the WS, I had to get rid of all reminders right away, I didn't want to think about the pain I had caused so many people. Anyway, letting go of it all helped me be able to move on a lot quicker with our recovery. So much so that when there was recent contact, I was there with FWH when he called her on speaker to tell her to leave us alone forever(she had ignored the NC email and we were just sick of it all) She, of course, hung up when she heard my voice, but my FWH got his point across before I spoke.

Anyway, I think that you should go ahead and hold onto the logs and such, but don't keep bringing them up. You need to agree to a time when you can talk about it, and the rest of the time you need to work on your M. I also agree that you may want to consider D. You don't have any kids with her, and your M was begun with her already being unfaithful. BUT, if you feel your M is salvageable, then go for it. I am coming from the perspective of both sides, but most recently as the BW(need to fix my signature line)

I wish you luck, and just remember that women are emotional beings, and that often, when you think you are just voicing your thoughts, it can be taken as an attack. Again, not excusing, just trying to shed light from a FWW's pov.


Tigger
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h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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Thank you all, very very much.

I am going to lay low on the chats, she has no issue with me reading her blogs which is what I will spend a bit of time on instead. Were that she was less prolific I could save some time, alas.

Every day that passes she is getting more mentally stable/balanced...just generally reachable. More like the person I met and fell in love with years ago. It is nice to see.

How this translates to being able to hold this M together, I am not sure. Since I have been so focused on her--pulling her back from the edge--that I put myself on hold. Now that she is doing better I am starting the next phase of dealing with this situation for myself. Not easy as you all know.

What hurts is all the wasted life I see that we will never get back. Literally years spent going down the wrong paths that stole things away from both her and me. That alone leaves such a bitter taste in my mind, even before I get to any specific deeds. When I think about where we could be today had she put her energies into us, our life and our work.

Perhaps most, this is what I don't know if I can get over.

Maybe I am naive, but I do think that if she decides to stay with me she will get past the various areas of cheating. If for no other reason than the fact that now she is more awake to the problems she doesn't want to waste any more of her own life, or that of her son's.

Whether he remains/becomes my son or not I have to decide.


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I am just curious but if the roles were reversed, do you think she would consistently put up with the constant disrespect and humiliation she continues to show you? It sounds like you would almost have to be a masochist to put up with this.

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WithChild,

As you look at my log in name you will understand the questions I am about to ask. First, I would recommend that you really listen to Tigger, she is an amazing resource on this particular situation and has been on this site a long time helping many people.

My questions to you are rather simple sounding. What has your W learned that is changing her perspective on marriage, you, and how to protect and nurture a marriage? If she is simply "sorry" you are in big trouble and should leave NOW.

If she is starting to research and learn about what marriage really is and you see the light bulb going on, then there is indeed hope for the marriage. Your evaluation should be of her changes and changes in perspective. Empathy for your situation would be good, but often does not come for awhile.

Further, given that this is a 6 year period of behavior, some real changes have to come in how she seeks to make herself happy, and what she considers "happy".

With regards to reading her blogs, you need to read them with the eye to "learning" what she was thinking, how she thinks, why she violates the boundaries of marriage, I won't say her boundaries as she apparently has few and weak ones at that. She needs to learn about boundaries.

In short, she is running around with men she met as a teenager, and has not outgrown her teenage thinking. At age 30 I would be very concerned about this, especially now that a child is involved and the child is not yours.

Please do more reading, keep posting, and most of all consider asking her to start to construct a plan to protect this marriage, and I mean a plan with many details. She can learn about such plans and what it takes to make a good marriage on this site. You really might want to send her here.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL


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