Been posting here for a while. WH is going to IC, to figure out his feelings on this. He said that he's happy with every part of our M and that I met all of his other EN except he doesn't have intimate desire for me. WH was able to perform with OW, and would rather go without then to be intimate with me (this is so embarrassing and humiliating).

I'm not sure if this is part of his withdrawal...or if he's convinced himself of this so that he can justify his A. We have not had SF since 7/06....his RA started shortly after that.

Is there anyone else out there who has had this issue? How did you deal with this? If yes, please tell me your story. I'm not sure how to proceed. I'm feeling like this is a lost cause. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Tami

You think you can have SF w/a WS? You should want to have SF with your H NOT the WS.

So why are you surprised the WH has not desire for the BS? That desire can only be found when he stops being a WS and lets your H come back to the real world.

In the meantime you as the BS have the time to work on improving yourself so that you are irresistible. Once your plan A improvements are sufficiently completed (not perfect just sufficient) and he is still a Ws, then move to plan B.

Your heart and mind must be in sync b4 you implement plan B.

L.

Orchid is telling it straight.

Tami:
There is good news and bad news.

First the bad.

The Affair has not ended as long as there is OnGoing continued Contact between the 2 affair partners.
[just going by your by-line, your H's A is still occurring]

Doesn't matter what they say, promise or otherwise try to negotiate.

Unfortunately [for them] they cannot just be friends or co-workers.
That boundary has been crossed and destroyed ......it can Not be restored.

Best they can be now is a life lesson to keep in mind the next time they are tempted.

Besides,
lets face facts:
None of us are there, none of us really KNOW whats going on when they are alone ....so your getting your information from sources that are at the least suspect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Yep,
WS lie {big time}. Sad but true.

So bottom line is, one or both of them need to go.
Since you have NO leverage with this OW, looks like your H needs to start looking. {like yesterday}

Yes,
of course there are a hundred and One reasons that he can't {or actually won't} .......that's fine and dandy, but unless you can [and want} to continue to live like your doing .....its Your best Shot at restoring your marriage.

Good news is:
Once your H actually ENDS his A ......then goes through withdrawl .......really works on himself and the relationship ........at that point [if YOUR doing Your part mind you], indeed his feelings Can be renewed towards you.

[This is all assuming you had a more normal type of a Desire life before hand].

Tami,

I tried to tell you these same things(as top rope) months ago when you were on the Recovery forum.I would say it's time for Plan B.Your WS still won't budge on his work situation because it allows him to continue to have contact, no matter the extent. WS become panicked & desperate to keep their lover in the loop. He'll continue to do so if you allow it. Aren't you tired of having to be a third party to this A? Don't make the same mistake that I did. I fell for my WH's BS about how he couldn't give up his project (where OW worked) and it allowed the A to continue, only further underground, which led to DDAy 2, and more suffering for me. Which is where you're headed.I think it hurts even more the 2nd time.

I know you want him back, but believe me, when this is all said and done anything you do, don't do, and anything he does or doesn't do will weigh heavily on you later. Recovery is also agony and you don't want to look back and think, "why did I continue to take so much [email]cr@p[/email] for so long?" And you feel double depressed, depressed about his A and how much he hurt you, and depressed about all the stupid mistakes and [email]cr@p[/email] you took. That's reality!

It wasn't until I put my foot down and said "I'm not telling you to give up that project, but I cannot stay with you if you continue to work there with OW". I did a little of Plan B, and that's when and only when things really started to change and Recovery was able to finally start.

"So why are you surprised the WH has not desire for the BS? That desire can only be found when he stops being a WS and lets your H come back to the real world."

Well I am suprised at that statment- there are many differing types of affairs.

my husbands included-we actually had a very good sex/and intimate life through-out the entirity of his year long affair.
Agreed many red flags-that I missed and was completley ignorant of-but not much was different in the bedroom-other than probably more.

So my question would be, whos word is it that he was performing with the other woman-his??? or is that an assumption. plus his word...perhaps there is another reason???

Just thoughts

Max

When my H was pursuing Cafe Woman, he didn't want me, either, and also had problems on the rare occasions that we had SF. I don't think he was having a PA with her, but I think he badly wanted it. She wasn't interested in him and just considered him a friend, and once she realized that I had a problem with them "talking" at the bar so much, she backed off.

Once my H got over her, our SF resumed. I think that he had totally convinced himself that he didn't want me anymore. Take note that the key to his desire returning is that he got over her. In our case, Cafe Woman got herself a new boyfriend and got married, sold her cafe, and therefore we hardly ever see her anymore, and she is usually with her husband. My H even LIKES her H, but when he was pursuing her, he totally hated her previous boyfriend.

Tami:

WS does not want to have SF with YOU because he is cheating on his OW when he does that.

Establish the boundaries that Toprope and J41 mentioned.

Your H's desire for you will return, after he gets rid of the Wayward part.

Until then?

Well, you see how that is working.

How's the Plan A going?

LG

I like watching dr. Phil ... "You teach people how to treat you". If you look at it with what Orachid tried to tell you : Let WH step up to the plate to be H (i.e treat you like W). You let WH treat you like BS ... he will never treat you like W and he still WH.

redhat

Tami,

Yes, we had this very problem last year in the midst of his A. He tried to blame it on ADs, but I pointed out that the problem started out before the ADs. We've had NC since Jan (I think) and the problem seems to have abated. I don't know if he's yet accepted that his A with OW was the cause of the problem or not.

Thanks everyone for answering:

Orchid..Top Rope..MadMax1..
I don't want SF with WH, I want to be married to my H. I guess I'm a little slow...but I feel ready to let him go now. I told him last week that he needs to move out...I can't change/control what he does or feel but I can control what I do. I think I've Planned A all I can...but he still has very strong feelings for her. I asked him "how are we to work on M if she's spread eagle between us?" With that said he is making arrangement to move out to live with his sister.


Jaded..Redhat..

I know you tried to tell me months ago, but I wasn't ready to accept it. I am now. I realized that there's only so much I can do, give to WH, but he's not ready to accept it.

I'm tired to feeling worthless and not "good" enough...I gave him the power to put me in that place. It's time to get myself back...I am preparing that with this move that he may not want to come back or that I may very well not want him back (though it's hard to imagine that at this point). But I also never imagine myself writing in a marriage forum either!

I do need a clarification on Plan B...I've read so many posters saying that their WS is living/dating the OP...
How do you deal with that? Just think about that makes my stomach turn.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer.

Tami

Tammy,

Plan B is the last resorts. However if WH is moving out to sister or somewhere else ... I suggest you hand him plan B letter. How to handle thingking of WH ? ... the same way you handle WS-OP ... NC (go dark). Absolutely no contact in person, in any means, not even getting news about WH. Only when the is emergency and has to be via 3rd person. Plan the logistic and financial part of plan B.

For now, Plan A'ng your butt off. A lot of people mis understood plan A. In plan A you have to be able to say ... this train is leaving the station w/ or w/o H. You improve yourself in every facet of your life, make it attractive than OW.

redhat.

RH,

I've been plan Aing my butt off, in fact about 45lbs off. The problem is that my WH is very aware of what his life will be w/o me. He has told me that he can't function w/o me. I am the center of his entire world....BUT he can't "function" w/me either. So is this wayward talk? Possibly. He's fooled me for a year.

There is trust issues(duh), since he cont. to work w/OW. I've been snooping and checking up on him. He is transparent when I ask....he has no problem telling me that his feelings for her has not changed. Working with her is difficult. He says it is not his "intention" to resume his A with her.

So my question is: WH has ended PA and EA....but can't change job (we are not in a position for him to be out of work....we NEED 2 income to survive). How much realistic time do I give, now that he is in IC?

I know that I can't take much more of this waffling on my feelings but like your sig. line....I don't want to look back in 10 years and regret how I handled this for him and for me. Like what Jaded said....I don't want to resent myself for staying to long either.

For the first time I feel like I'm actually seeing real glimpses of my H and not the WH in a fog. But I know that it is not healthy for me to always wondering if today's the day that he "unintentionally" fall the wagon.

I'm a "giver" (sucker) when it comes to those I love. It's very difficult for me to walk aways from helping those I care deeply for...but I think I've done all I can and it's time to tap into the "taker" in me.

We are scheduled to talk monday...I'm sure he is aware what the subject is. I had originally told him that here or away he is still married and I expect him to conduct himself that way. The time spent away from each other is to reflect on our M and if we should cont. being married. He doesn't want to move out, b/c he's worried that I won't want him back...the damage too great for me to forgive him. I told him that just like me it's a risk we will have to take.

Thanks for your time and response.

Tami

Tami,

I think they are giving you good advice. Glad your WH is making plans with his sister. Is she in your M corner? His changing jobs is still a necessary thing though..... Is he continuing in counseling? Make you Plan B letter. Look up examples under the search. Define your Plan B. Maybe your SIL can be your emergency contact person.

Hug your kids

Fled

But he hasn't REALLY has he??
Which is the core of your problem.

I would hope that your H's A has taught you a few important lessons .......like perhaps its your marriage/family that needs to be the Focus of your lives ....and things like jobs and money are only there to enhance and Support the peace/love/joy that comes out of family.
Jobs and other "stuff" come and go throughout our lifetime ......but Family is what *makes* our lives.

You may take this post as negative,
but Do you really want to continue to exchange short term gain .....for long term pain??
I really hope you aren't saying yes to that.

Unfortunately [in your asking for advice],
you want to skip to steps 4, 5, 6 ........without working on steps 1, 2 & 3.

Sorry but picking and choosing [at the stage your In] is NOT on the menu.
It just doesn't work like that.

Some steps (such as NC and actually ending the A) are crucial to having any hope of reconciliation and peace/joy/trust in the relationship.

Working side by side, day after day, WHERE the A most likely started ...is about as far a point from NC as there can be on the continuum.

Keep in mind that true recover is much like learning in school.
Its progressive.
You need to learn and implement the basic [core] work ......in order to progress to the next levels [steps].
Its similar to:
If a child doesn't learn multiplication ......its pointless to move on to algebra.

That's kinda where your at.
YOU somehow expect New/Different advice [or plan if you will] .......but your not willing to except the absolute need to END the A first.
Which it hasn't. [at least by the definitions most have read up on and accept]

Yes, I completely understand the pull of career and money.

Indeed,
We moved 4 times and to 3 different states to support my W's career [which she said was VERY important to her].
Honestly,
she made great strides and was pulling in great Money.
More then ever before.
Much more than me at the time.

However,
due to HER poor choices and Actions .......we ended up selling our home, her getting another job and yet again moving to another state.
It sucked as we were Finally in our Home state (with family and history) .....but her A messed all that up.
That's what's known as consequences.

Now,
Unless you get a handle [On the reality] that ANY Job will pay your H $$$$$$$$$$$$,
your heading either for D .....or at the least--- for more suffrage on your part.

[Cause if your honest, you'll probably admitt that your H going off to work EVERYDAY ...spending it with this OW .....and you having NO REAL Idea of what's going on ........that it is both very Hurtful, as well as DisRespectful].
For ME,
it was almost enough to drive myself InSane!

Yep,
due to my FEAR of losing money and her position ......I let it freeze ME into InAction, for around 4 -5 months. That was probably one of the worst times in all of this for me.
{Your seeming to want to settle and head down a road SO similar to mine is actually making me feel very badly for us both}.

Lots more could be said,
but guess its enough to leave it at that.
Guess the only bright spot might be:
that job might come in handy to pay You some child support some where down the line.
Now isn't that just a sad sad goal???

IN any case,
you'll do what you think is best. [I just don't have the energy to try to convince you otherwise ....at least not today].


I wish you success in whatever choices you make.

TopRope,

You are positively, 100% right in everything you have posted. I have known all of that for a while, but I WAS fooling myself. I so wanted to believe in my M, and our history (prior to A) together that I did the one thing I swore to myself I wouldn't do....I stuck my head in the sand.

Well, my head is out of the sand...I'm finally breathing fresh air. I know that complete NC has to be established before "we" can even have a glimpse of a chance.

So tonight I told my WH that he needs to move out....that the reason why I feel like crap is because I let myself be put in that position. Like you said....settling for short term gains in exchange for long term pain is not what I want. I want to be able to look at my H and know that he is HERE with me completely. And he's not...and he won't as long as he continues to spend any kind of time w/OW. And yes, I wonder what he's doing...are they talking...making plans...stolen moments...long looks..."accidental" touches. It does drive a person insane, I don't deserve to be treated that way. I told him, I don't have any control over what he does or how he feels BUT I do have control over MY actions and feelings.

SIL doesn't know about the A...no one in his family does. We are not close to them, other then during the holidays..they are not a part of our lives. Does my H intend to tell them about it? Probably not...he feels that it is not their business and says he doesn't care what they say or think (big lie, IMO).

So Top, thanks for the giant 2x4's...I was already there...you just gave me the final shove in the right direction.

I know the advice I've received over the months are in my best interest...and given with the best of intentions. I was in a fog myself....but I ready to listen now.

Tami

Hey Fled,

I glad to hear from you. Difficult night...I told H that he needed to move out by the end of the month.

What I would have liked was a movie version: (H falls to his knees, while I stand-nonchalantly)..."NO, please don't ask me to leave...I love you...only you. OW is a stinking slut...I was sooooo wrong....please forgive me. I'll do anything you want, just take me back." H grabs me in a tight embrace then carries me upstairs and we make passionate love. Music swells...fireworks erupt...end of Act I.

(I'm covering my pain with the use of humor...working?)

But instead his only reaction was that he will talk with his sister when she returns from her trip, and that he only needs clothes and the air mattress. Then he gave me a hug and a kiss. That's it.

So I guess plan B letter is next. I don't know if I can go completely dark...we do need to talk about our kids even though they are older and understand the concept. I want make it easy on them. I don't want them to hate their father.

I am totally destroyed by this. I know that in the midnight hours I will be overwhelmed with self doubt and worries. Any suggestions to keep strong?

SIL doesn't know about A...I hope H cont.IC...I hope for a lot.

"Hope" all is well with you and your family. You made it out okay with your arctic camping trip?

Tami

First,
don't beat yourself up too much .........this stuff is emotional [to the max],
therefore VERY difficult to "see" what to Do while we are in the midst of it all.

I'd dare say that we ALLL make mistakes ........partly because we are afraid, and partly because we care sooo much.

Only saving grace is when we're willing to TRY a different approach Once we realize that the course we're currently on isn't working [for us or our situation].
So good job in recognizing that part.

Next,
figure out what you do want & start working towards achieving it.

In addition,
is there any way you can [calmly but matter of factly] inform your H that he is Welcome to remain in the home, once he is AWAY from the OW??

Or if he can't see it now, that the Door is open for him to return ONCE he's gotten other employment / [transfer?] OR She has??

Please make sure that he Knows your NOT wanting him to go because he's 'bad' ......not at all ........simply that its not in the best interests of your M for them to work together.
Honestly its Too hard on You, too much temptation for him ...too disrespectful to your relationship.

However,
Once that is accomplished ....he's welcome to let the 2 of you try and make a go of it.

Also,
Make your marriage and your home a soft place for him to land ........once certain boundaries are met of course.

Keep reiterating that there "are" consequences to our actions in this life [and that you sympathize with that] ........but that ToGether you Can eventually make it all work out.

Tell him that at this stage you need to see Actions on his part ......tangible stuff ........because the talk and lip service just doesn't mean that much.
And it won't, UNTIL he begins to take actions that will slowly begin to rebuild some of that trust.

Apparently he's going to be around for awhile .......so plan A your butt off.
That way if he doesn't get the message and end the A .......you'll have left a Solid Positive impression when He chooses to walk out the door.
{And make NO mistake about it ........if he leaves due to his CHOICE not to end his A ........that is his responsibility and his alone}.

Remember use Honey as much as possible to get your points across. It helps it go down easier when he is alone and has time to reflect on it all.
{Sadly no matter how you present it, most of what you Say does not go over well while the 2 of you are in person}. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Again,
wishing you only success in your Journey. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tami,

I think TR has given you great advice. Why doesn't his sister know? She should. And she can help you with any contact necessary about the kids in Plan B. Do yoou think his sister would encourage the A or discourage it? Make your Plan. When you give it to him, do as TR suggested. That this is because he is choosing not to protect you and your M. That he is choosing to maintain C with OW.

The artic camping was interesting. It is only the 3rd time we have had the trailer out. The instruction manual for the furnace/heater remote is missing and it wasn't functioning properly. We spent two days and then came home and winterrized it. My SIL will be sleeping in it (with a heater) for thanksgiving. It snowed lightly today. I can't wait for DS 19 to come home next Wed. for Thanksgiving. He isn't doing well with his GF. She is still stringing him along, and he doesn't want to let go. I hurt for him as well.

Stay strong and focus on the long term goal, the survival of your M, and more importantly of you.

Blessings,
Fled

Hi
Sorry you had to be cold on your camping trip, great excuse to cozy up to ones you love! I'm sorry to hear that your son is having cont. problems w/GF. I can relate about not letting go. I'm so excited for you to see your son!!!

TR is right....how does that feel...two women telling a man he's right? (ha, ha)

SIL and MIL can NOT stand OW. They think she's a stuttering lush, they just look at her like she's from another planet. SIL asked me once how I can stand being around her, she's so needy. I told her she's H friend and I'm trying to make him happy. Every time she's been over for social event she has drank herself silly. Then she would try to get all "personal" with you. Ask you these really awkward questions...like one time she asked our friend...who she's met like twice..."What's it like to lose your wife?" His wife had passed away only a year before. I had to rescue him by asking him to help me in the kitchen. Then she would say things like "your so lucky to have your H", "I wish I could be more like you", "Your H loves you so much, he so proud of you, he takes you on vacations, remodeled the kitchen...blah..blah". I should have known...she's has to have everyone's approval and attention. He's such a sucker.

H thinks he can move into SIL house (she lives alone) w/o telling her what's going on. He still has a foot in la la land. But I do think counseling has been helpful. The counselor he has just lets him talk, then discreetly injects questions. If nothing else it give him a different POV from a objective party.

I'm gona give him the letter this weekend...where I will outline my boundaries and expectations. I honestly don't think he's thought that far ahead. I know he doesn't want to move out...life w/me really isn't all that bad BUT he knows he cont. to cause pain b/c he can't feel the way I want him to feel.

He thinks that the problem in our M is separate from his A. I told him he has convinced himself of that. Was our sex life up to par? No, but it wasn't non-existent either UNTIL he started his PA with OW. I asked him if he really thinks that the loss of desire for me has nothing to do with the fact that he was banging another woman? And to justify that he has to convince himself that our love life was so terrible (as he puts it OVER) that he turned to OW? He just answers with "I don't know". Hopefully IC will help him find those answers.

Anyways, I've gotta go. I probably won't be posting in the next week....HAPPY GIVE THANKS DAY!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Tami

It is not plan B if you still have contact ... you have to go dark. Beleive me it works !, the longer you are in NC the easier your life would be.

redhat