FC:<P>Quoting from your response to Stonehenge, since this might get lost in that thread...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If H was half the lover (in all respects including sex, foreplay, romance, tenderness, and general love and kindness, and attention – the later 7 both in and out of the bedroom), then the size would not have been a factor. There is much more to sex (for a woman at least) than actual penetration and the size of a man's penis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not surprising to see you still comparing your H to the non-existent fantasy sperm donor. Still in contact with him, I would imagine. How many seconds left on that countdown until you leave your H, never having given your marriage a real chance?<P>Yeah... I get a little annoyed with you, but if it wasn’t just SO obvious that you are giving such a minimal effort to your marriage, I wouldn’t bother. I think what bothers me the most is you just completely sidestep issues(like Just Learning’s VERY good arguments) rather than face your own responsibilities to the deterioration and subsequent rebuilding of your marriage. One of many reasons I don’t expect you to reply to this. Just things to think about, and things I think need to be said. <P>My thoughts in your situation are as of a couple months ago of course... I would hope if things have changed since you last posted, if you have come to realize the “error of your ways,” that you would have posted such.<P>Something else to ponder... what happens if you pack your bags on New Years Eve, and your H says, “You’re not taking MY son anywhere?”<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited October 12, 1999).]

WhoDat, <P>I hope FC doesn't mind me stepping in here. <P>I have to say I'm suprised at your post to FC. For the most part, your posts to others are both intelligent and encouraging. Yet, for some reason, you find the need to go out of your way to come down on FC - I don't understand. Maybe you missed quite a few of her posts from the past, but as far as I can tell she is giving her all to her marriage. <P>I thought her quote to Stonehenge was well said and it brought out the key issue in her marriage and most others. That size ISN'T the key to good sex, it's ALL the other stuff. <P>How do you know she isn't giving more than a minimal effort in her marriage? How do you know she isn't facing her responsibilities? When she last posted, she was giving her husband the letters that the OM was writing to her. She was trying to talk to her husband about the changes that are needed for the both of them. She was showing her husband complete honesty. She was trying to make it work. What do you want her to do? I believe she wants a good marriage just like the rest of rest. She also needs a husband who will give a little effort to the relationship. I better quit venting.<P>Sorry to jump in here WhoDat. I'm just surprised at the insensitivity of your post; especially since you were coming down on others for not showing any compassion.<P>SHA

Hey SHA...<P>I’ve seen you posting kudos to FC a few times, and I think that’s great. Some of those posts, however, I’ve been wondering who you are reading, cuz I don’t see it from her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe you missed quite a few of her posts from the past, but as far as I can tell she is giving her all to her marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I may well have missed a few posts. But the general feel I get for the effort she’s giving is she simply isn’t.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought her quote to Stonehenge was well said and it brought out the key issue in her marriage and most others. That size ISN'T the key to good sex, it's ALL the other stuff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sure it is; it’s that way for me as well. The emotional connection is FAR more important to me than the physical. I came down on her not for that, but because (whether she admits it or not), she has attributed those connections to someone who <B>doesn’t exist.</B> Her OM was a fantasy, pure and simple. I’m not discounting her feelings <B>FOR</B> that fantasy; I’m sure she is in love with him, but he simply <B>isn’t</B> that person. She fell in love with someone she made up in her mind, and no one, not the real OM or her H, can live up to that. The fantasy aspect(as well as lies an deceit) are the cornerstone of an affair. And the sooner she realizes that, the sooner she actually CAN work on her marriage.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do you know she isn't giving more than a minimal effort in her marriage? How do you know she isn't facing her responsibilities?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As I said... I don’t any more. As of a couple months ago, when she last posted the details, she wasn’t. I guess the thing that bothered me the most was that arbitrary timetable she gave her H...”You clean up your act, and if I don’t see some REAL changes out of you, I’m out of here on January 1st.” There’s no way he’ll be able to live up to those demands, and why should he? She’ll likely change the criteria if he does.<P>Please note... quotes attributed to her are paraphrasing and/or generalizing of the outlook I have seen from her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When she last posted, she was giving her husband the letters that the OM was writing to her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, she said she tried, he wouldn’t have any of it, and she wasn’t going to “bother” him with the truth any more. Again... that may have changed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She was trying to talk to her husband about the changes that are needed for the both of them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, she was telling her H, “This is what <B>YOU</B> have to do, or I’m leaving!”<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She was showing her husband complete honesty. She was trying to make it work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Talking to the OM on the phone daily, whispering sweet nothings to each other about how they longed to be together is hardly working on a marriage or being honest<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What do you want her to do? I believe she wants a good marriage just like the rest of rest. She also needs a husband who will give a little effort to the relationship. I better quit venting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Yes... passions are raised by these things... no doubt. <P>What should she do? Give 100%, instead of counting the days until she can say, “Well... I tried! I’m outa here!” I guess I just see far less effort on her part than you. *shrug*<P>Personally, for details, I would look up that post by Just Learning in response to her. I thought that response addressed the issues pretty succinctly. This post also shows FCs lack of effort towards her marriage, and the need to backpedal to the forum as to those efforts(or lack thereof). <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006846.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/006846.html</A> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sorry to jump in here WhoDat. I'm just surprised at the insensitivity of your post; especially since you were coming down on others for not showing any compassion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don’t be sorry; you felt the need to respond to perceived (and actual, as a matter of fact) insensitivity just as I felt the need to respond to my own perceived hanging-on-to-the-fantasy. If nothing else, this forum is for <B>discussion.</B><P>In answer to your question... something I deleted from my post in the edit... “I know this is disrespectful of me, but I feel I’m showing you more respect than you’ve been showing your H.” Yes... it was disrespectful to FC, but compassion posted earlier this year from various sources hasn’t really helped either. I don’t really expect her to take this virtual shaking any more to heart than the others that were thrown her way, but I felt it was something I needed to say.<P>Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, SHA... you are a wonderfully compassionate individual, but I think telling FC she’s giving her all when she isn’t is not only a disservice to her H, but to her as well.<P>As always, JMHO. <p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited October 12, 1999).]

WhoDat, <P>Thank you for your thoughtful and in depth reply.<P>I guess we perceive FC's situation differently. I see several similarities between FC and my wife and I have had several forum conversations with her as well. <P>I see her trying to let go of the OM and actually seeking her husband's help in doing so. I see her trying to communicate openly with her husband as to her needs. I see her trying to make her marriage work considering the enormous obstacles that have to be overcome. Again, these are my perceptions from my communication with her.<P>As for the time table, well, to be honest I'm a little confused why people jump of her for that. Harley and others state that we SHOULD put a time table on our efforts at rebuilding. Most state that we should review our progress at 3 or 6 months intervals. I'm sure if FC saw progress in her marriage come January and she knew she had been giving it her best, then she would give it another six months. Is that wrong? <P>I suppose you are right WhoDat in regards to me knowing whether FC is doing her best. I don't know; only FC does and I hope she is.<P>Again, thanks for responding.<P>SHA

FC wants to stay in her fantasyland. Remember a while ago I started a heated debate about her fantasy. In real life people have to learn to deal with their problems and not run to someone else. It will never change unless that person wants it to change. How can anyone in their right frame of mind can expect for their world or anyone else's for that matter to be perfect all of the time. It just doesn't exist.<P>Like another post suggested, Amy Grant is living proof of that. No person on this planet has the perfect life. It just doesn't exist. The problem with most relationships is the one party wants to believe in the "happily ever after romance novels" and that is just not real life. Problems will always occur in any relationship male or female, people have to just start looking at life for what it is and not dwell too much on how it should be to them. That's why there is a thing called "Tough Love", sometimes a person has to loose everything in order to see what they "TRUELY" had to begin with. And that doesn't have anything to do what what they feel they deserved, because some people feel they should have all of the money of a Bill Gates, but did they truely do the work involved to deserve such riches. No, because if they truely did the work they would have what they seek, someone is not doing the "REAL" work.<P>FC truely has a good man, and his family is not that bad either. Remember they are the one's that footed the bill for the vacation, even after all of the madness that irresponible choices of FC left them in. How many other men do any of you know would have done what FC' husband did for her, not many. She is carrying another man's child and he is still there. Maybe the guy just don't know how to communicate well. Does that make him a devil, I think not!!! He has stood by FC with her own admittions through this hell!! And she still complains about what he is not doing.<P>FC, needs to take a good look at herself and her stupid choices concerning everyone involved and make a decision based upon reality and not her unrealistic choices in regards to how the real world differs from her wharped since of fantasy reality. Because most people on this forum knows her story and only know her one side of the ordeal. But yet she is the one who had unprotected sex with a man other than her husband. If she was truely unhappy she would have left already with the half-[censored] excuses that she continually uses. <BR>FC, knows she has no "REAL" other man, just a immature male who could not get a single woman and had to settle for another man's wife and got her pregnant. Nothing is stopping him from FC and nothing is stopping her from him. They both know deep down that they together did something that was despicable and don't have the courage, morality, strength, or good judgement to deal with it properly. So, it is all FC's husband that is keeping her from her great man. Yeah, we all know the reality of the situation!!<BR>If anyone attacks me for just giving my straight opionion, so be it!! I deserve it. At least I got the "TRUTH" out of my opinion and that is something FC wouldn't know if she tripped over it.<P>

ENOUGH:<P>Uh... Thanks? No, I don’t think so. Although I agreed with much of what you originally said, I think your manner of delivery is coarse and destructive to what you are trying to accomplish. I feel sometimes <B>I</B> step over the lines with FC in trying to “shake some sense” into her, but you chop her up with a chainsaw. <P>It won’t do her <B>or</B> your argument any good if no one listens to you for that reason. She’s probably already given up on me, even though I <B>am</B> trying to help.<BR>

whodat,<P>I will humbly apolgize to you and FC if what I said caused more harm than good. Her since of reality is based upon how things should be to her and not for what reality really is.<P>I know some people will say if you are not going through this then why or you here. It is simple. I have the intellect and foresight to try and reduce any and all problems in a marriage before I committ to it. I want to learn from the mistakes of others. Call it what you want. I call it smart thinking.

Waiting for the flames to start pouring in.

It would be nice if FC would come here and defend herself .....<P>I don't know WHAT to say ... I've been in the middle of a fantasy. It's tough tough tough to get out of. And I believe it's harder on us female types than males (WhoDat excluded of course) because we have so stinkin' many emotions that get us all tied up in these heart things.<P>Oh well .... Facing Choices I hope you're out there and will come and talk to us!

Everyone is solely concerned with only FC's pains. What about her husband? What about his family? What about the unborn child of another man? What about the friends of both parties?<P>Here the OM is getting a quality education to better who: "HIMSELF". Nothing is stopping FC from the pain but herself! Nothing is stopping him from being with FC but himself! Nothing is stopping FC from being with her soulmate, love of her life, Mr. Perfect, Mr. Meet all of her Emotional Needs, but herself!! Period!!! <P>Ofcourse, they are not together!! Why??? Why??? If it was ordained by God, The Universe, Infinity, then I am sure they would be together!! It was destined right, or is that line of thinking is a fantasy.<BR>FC and her OM know what the truth is, but the TRUTH sometimes HURTS, and they are both too immature to face it. So, they stay in the safe world of "it should be", "I wish", "I dream", or "I wish" fantasies.

Ya know, ENOUGH, for someone who only wants to "learn from the mistakes of others," you sure do get emotionally charged up in FCs plight. I'd ask why, but I really don't care.

Hmmmmmmmm, Enough .... are you supressing anger here?<P>What's wrong today? You seem a bit on edge?<P>Were you ticked off at ME when I was going thru this? Or Holly? Or Hummingbird? <P>All us betrayers are going thru this in SOME stage of our withdrawal. We are NOT diminishing the pain of the spouse ... in fact I am overwrought most days with the guilt of what I've done to a DECENT MAN ... my husband.<P>Yes, FC has to get over this fantasy ... but will have to do it in HER time ... this place is for helping us deal with the crap ...<P>You must be hurting, and I understand that. And FC is hurting too ... and her H is hurting too ...

Sorry, guys.<P>I just read a transcript for "Dateline" and it was of a man who has to pay child support for a child that his wife did not reveal was his until years later. Husband took a DNA test, and the child is not his, but he is still forced to pay child support and he and wife or no longer together. OM is off doing his own thing with "NO" responsibility of the chaous he helped to create.

WhoDat,<P>Because you don't care....<P>*Cause and Effect<BR>*Postive and Negative<BR>*You get what you deserve<BR>*Seek and you shall find<BR>*Do unto others...<BR>*When the Student is ready the Teacher will come<BR>*If you want to know the ending look to beginning<P>These all come from the same principles. Universal Laws. Think deep.<P>Unconditional Love doesn't mean that you have to be STUPID!!

Enough, I think you might be mistaken about FC's situation. She's got a son over a year old, her H knows about the father and has chosen to raise him as his own. The OM knows about the child, but FC has refused to allow him to be in the child's life.<P>I think the OM wanted to be a part of the child's life, but it's been FC's decision to stay in the marriage and let her H raise the boy as his own.<P>I think that's the status. Like I said, I WISH FC would get on here and let us know what's the latest.

Maya,<P>I am familiar with FC's story. However, at the time of my first post, I forgot that she had given birth. She has even started back teaching.<P>More Questions:<P>How the hell can someone keep you away from YOUR child that you "CHOOSE" to have in your life? I don't think so. OM needs to grow up and stop lying to FC and himself!<P>I know the husband knows and has accepted the child. It makes it even harder to believe her story of total hell in the marriage. The man is trying. He may lack the correct communication skills to say how he truely feels. Damn, we were not all on the debate team ya know.<P>Why not tell the guy to wear a condom?<P>Did she have the OM tested for STD'S before she allowed him inside of her? Oh, the condom broke during intercourse. Ya right. She could have brought anything (AIDS), home to her husband thinking the way she thinks.<P><BR>

I cant say that I don't blame FC for not coming in here - she doesn't have to defend herself to any of us ... she didn't start this fight .. and she shouldn't end it. Someone is in her business right now that shouldn't be. FC has a heck of a lot more guts than a lot of us would have in HER situation. Why doesn't everyone else find someone else to pick on?? Maybe someone not in a MB site. <P>Enough - why are you attacking FC? Why such an interest in her whole personal situation and how she is handling it? You need to absorb your anger into your own problems. <p>[This message has been edited by Cndy (edited October 13, 1999).]

I have to agree with Cndy...totally. Neither of you have a right to judge Facing Choices...and if I were in her shoes I wouldn't respond to your posts either. <P>It sounds like both of you need some compassion... for someone other than your own self interests.<P>If Facing Choice's husband wanted to, he could post here I'm sure...but he chooses not to. She's been incredibly honest and has put up with such ridicule...which is unkind and not helpful.<P>So...take a break...<P>Respectfully,<BR>Ramy

Enough-<P>If I recall FC almost "left" MB once before due to personal attacks just like this one. If you are so concerned about FacingChoices and the CHOICES she is making, why are you posting in a manner which may push her away from MB and the help/support here? Sometimes "friends" here at MB give other "friends" tough love. I don't read anything in your posts which indicate to me you truly care about FC or give a rats behind about the choices you think she should be making. IMO, you're not being a "friend", you're using FC as a scapegoat for your own anger/frustrations. It's all in the name...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!<P>------------------<BR>For I know the thoughts I think<BR>toward you, saith the Lord,<BR>thoughts of peace, not of evil,<BR>to give you an expected end.<BR>Jeremiah 29:11<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Kyra (edited October 13, 1999).]

Enough, you need prayer for your angry heart. And BTW, you have no idea what I am living through and how STRONG I have been. Yes, I made some mistakes, but I've come a long way (in other words, get off my back please). <P>Anyway, here is the brief update...I'm still with H and he still shows no interest in "working" on our marriage. He says that staying with me is enough for him as far as "work" is concerned. OM Is still begging me to let him be in his son's life, but he is respecting my wishes that he isn't. He says it is a daily struggle for him to not exercise his "rights" as a father, but he will respect that my judgments are that it is best that S has only one father, and that is H. I don't love H, but I have resigned myself to the fact that it is morally right to remain married and faithful to H. OM and I have limited contact and every letter OM sends to me I offer to H. H will not read them and he grows very angry when I bring it up at all. Still, I tell him of the letters and I continue to limit all contact with OM to information regarding S only. It is the most painful situation I've ever been in, but I have to do the right thing and stay with H. Sure, I'll get attacked by someone (probably ENOUGH) for staying because it is "right." But I don't love my H, I do love OM, and I've come to live with those facts. I try to love H as I do chirst (as if that isn't hard enough as I've totally lost my christian faith in this mess) OM will always be special to me, he is afterall my son's father and my son was conceived in love. But, OM isn't in my life anymore and I'll find a way to cope. <P>Thanks for all who supported me here in this post and in others. It just got too hard for me to post here. I'll try to catch up and reply more often, but for the most part, I've got to focus on other things in life and not think about this hell I live with.