Hi, this is my first post here.
I've never asked for help from anyone like this before but I need it now. I want to save the marriage I may have ruined.
This site was recommened by friend who says it saved his marriage, hoping it can do the same for mine.
My wife and I have been married for 13 years, dated for 5 before marriage. We've had ups and downs but the vast majority of it has been wonderful. I do truly love that woman.
15 months ago she found out that I had been to see my ex wife who lives in another town some 40 miles from here. I admitted fault and attemted to commit myself visibly to my wife. Spending time with her, talking etc. Did not contimue to see the ex but did stay in contact with her (big mistake). Not a lot of contact, she would call sometimes, wife has cell records, she's knows who called who and how many times. I did continue to chat with her on Yahoo though.
On Oct 30th I went to see her again and got caught again. She doesn't believe that this was the only time since of course but it was and there was no physical contact, never has been contact with any woman other than my wife since we got married. I hold her in far to high regard to do that.
When my wife found out I had been to see her again she left, took most of her things and has gone to stay with a friend. She will talk to me but won't even consider discussing us, says she doesn't have anything left to give, that it's over.
I have cut off all contact with my ex now completely and told her not to contact me in any way. She doesn't believe me or believe that I will continue to avoid contact with her. In fact, she doesn't believe anything I say.
I'm open to any course of action that she will accept to work on this marriage
I want to save this marriage, it is worth saving. We've worked hard for many years to have the life that we do and I know in my heart that we deeply love each other, just need to work on showing it more.
I want to show my wife that I can change, that I can be trusted and believed but I feel like I need her here to show her that.
Any help or comments are apprecated..

Welcome to MarriageBuilders, Rasp...

Seems to me you're making new choices...asking for help, open to receiving it, and owning your actions.

What you do differently will give you a different experience, won't it?

What I see in your story is healthy boundary enforcements by your BW. They were predetermined and progressive.

In order to change, we have to recognize why we did what we did...to see our choices and own them fully.

Please post what you find when you do this...and go back to the beginning, if you will, for who this EX is, how long married (if married).

When you cut off all contact with EX...did you write out a No Contact (NC) letter which your wife pre-approved and mailed it together? There are sample ones here on this website, and in Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley.

As for showing your wife your changes...first, you change, then she sees the change...over time. You can't make her see, know, believe, perceive, think or feel anything. She does all those things...that's her stuff. You have your stuff.

Call her stuff her truth. You have your truth. The truth are the actions taken...and you identified yours. You phrased this without ownership...that you admitted to fault...instead of choice. You chose to risk your marriage by going to see your X 15 months ago...and again, and again. Each time you knew that you were attacking your marriage with your choice.

I don't understand your attempting to commit yourself visibly to your wife...do you mean hold yourself to acting transparent? So she knows your stuff...your thoughts, what you dwell on, your feelings, where you are at all times and who you are with?

Had you done this then, you would have told her of every contact from EX. That's transparency. Teaches us to own to our partners what we already own...the truth. Lying by omission breaks apart marriages...read Dr. Harley's Four Rules of Marriage...you'll see one of them is Radical Honesty.

Radical concept. Necessary and reasonable...feels radical doing it.

What you did by spending time together (sharing presence), talking together (sharing and being shared with), (etc.) masked what you weren't doing...which was sharing the truth with her...each action is truth...each contact continues the boundary crossing you did originally.

And you knew you'd be caught...that your wife had the power to find out the truth without you telling her.

And you did it anyway.

Would you say you had an affair? Did you hold EX in your head, compare your real wife to her, seek comfort or stress relief in fantasy?

You were actively deceptive...especially, self-deceptive.

I don't believe you want to live that way anymore. Costs us our self-respect, esteem, trust and belief in ourselves. Tears down us and tears down our half of the marriage...and our partners hurt and fear greatly from our choices.

Would you consider because you hold your wife in high regard, you emotionally cheated? If you'd held yourself in high regard, would you have cheated at all?

You're not alone. You're not bad, crazy or wrong. You are experiencing the consequences of your choices. We all do.

Seems to me you want to change your choices so you will experience different consequences, is that correct?

Very glad you're here...please know that weekends are slow...and that the forum with the most traffic is the Infidelity General Questions II forum.

Welcome.

LA

Yes on both counts. Thanks for the welcome.


Need a little explanation on this one, I even went to the acronym list and couldn't find BW.


First wife and I were married for 9 years have a daughter and son together. 27 and 23 respectively.My son and his girl just had a baby, little girl, beautiful thing Reason for divorce? Affair with current wife.

The reason I did it? I guess because we had been chatting some and sharing pictures of our son's new baby daughter and I just wanted to see her. It was a poor choice and I knew it was.



Had never heard of a NC letter until I started reading this site yesterday. I am certainly willing to write one if my wife would approve and mail it. I've kind of looked for the link to the samples but so far haven't found it.


Many of the things that I know she would like for me to change will be difficult for her to see without being here. She thinks I spend too much time online. I do. She thinks that I drink too much. I likely do but have been cutting back because I know she wants me to. She would like for me to work on projects around the house and honestly I would like to also. I'm lazy.
Okay, I'm not the best at choosing words sometimes. Yes, I know it was my choice. I knew it was a bad one and made it anyway and I knew it could ruin what I have but did it anyway. As for seeing her again and again and again, no, once 15 months ago and this time, that has been all and was easily caught at it both times.


I am open with her. We belong to several internet boards together. I spend a lot of time online but our computer is in an open area of the house just off the main living room. I share what I am looking at with her. She has the cell phone records each month, she knows who calls and who I call and how often. When my first wife and I chat or talk on the phone she knows about it.
My wife has unblocked internet access at work, we chat, play and share links and photos anytime she's on and not too busy while I am at home.
It is very difficult for me to get her to open up to me in conversation usually. Does she know my deepst thoughts, hopes, dreams? I hope so, I have told them to her. Told her many times what I had hoped for us in the coming years but it's difficult to actually discuss it with her. Maybe it's not what she wants to do but she doesn't say that. I know we need to work on communication and I am willing to. I do want to know her thoughts, hopes and dreams too and I really don't feel like I do. She always agrees with me but I don't feel that she has any real hope or interest of following any of my ideas through.


I hope that's not true. We'd been spending a lot of really quality time together recently. I would like to tell you that I have been very proud of my wife this summer. I'm not going to tell her age here (I'm 47) but my lovely wife, mother of 3 and grandmother to 4 with another due in December has learned to ride a motorcycle and gotten one of her own. She's actually quite good on it for a beginner.
We recently returned from a wonderful 3 day weekend trip to Arkansas that we both agreed was very fun. Made plans to go back in the spring.
We have a standing date night kind of. Some friends have a studio and band plays each Thursday night. We go every week, dance have a few beers and good midweek relaxer.


Yes



Yes.



An affair? No, I wouldn't.
Did I compare them? There is no comparison if you knew them, my wife is ten thousand times over a better woman. Successful, intelligent, beautiful fabulous woman and I don't want to lose her.
Did I fantasize? Yes but I don't believe it was for relief, it was just pure male testoserone. My wife is a wonderful lover.



Very much agreed.


You're right I don't want to. That's what has brought me here in search of help. I believe in this marriage, I believe in us and I want to save it, to make it better than it ever was.


That is a good description of what I did, emotionally cheated. Cheated my wifes emotions and my own and no, if I held myself in very high regard I wouldn't have and I even knew it at the time.


Yes I know these are the consequences for my choices and I don't like them one bit. I want to change desperately, want to share the love we once had together again.




Thanks, did i post this in the wrong forum? If I did can someone move it?

Sorry to be so long and drawn out there but I wanted to respond individually to all of your questions and comments in hopes of making things more clear to anyone who reads this.

I sent my wife a link to this site along with my user name and pw, hopefully she will also come here and read.

Hang in there Ras. The board picks up through the week and I'm sure other's will be chiming in.

Just as a way of introduction, I am the friend that steered Ras here. I believe MB can help him understand what he has done and why, and what he can do to repair the damage he has done.

Ras,

BW = Betrayed Wife. I went back and forth on that one in my head...decided I'd let you decide if that's appropriate or not.

Thank you for clearing up that EX is XBW. I believe what you are experiencing now are the long-term consequences of your previous A. See, when you chose to leave your real wife and go with your fantasy one, you gave up sharing grandchildren with the mother of your children. You gave up that life-long connection.

And you wanted it back. You don't get it back, Ras. I'm sorry. What you choose to do has life-long consequences, not in your control, which you cannot change.

We can't elude our consequences...they come. In my case, one of the pivotal reasons my WH chose to stay and work on the marriage was catching sight of a youngster at a store, who looked like our middle son did at his age, and me saying, "If we divorce, we won't share experiencing our children." It was full-frontal grief that hit me in that moment...

We, too, have our first grandchild, Ras. It's a wonder. I understand. We recovered...you chose to follow your feelings, not your beliefs, and marry your AP. I believe that's a really tough road you chose, Ras. Lots of stuff you forfeited from your choice what I figure must be 15 years ago. You counted your affair as "dating" your OW in that 5 years, is that correct?

Please prepare yourself for an onslaught here...where you are right now is reaping what you sowed...and it's going to get deeper. Hurt more. Feel devastating. Please hold to your opportunity here to come clean for life...to change your patterns, habits and perspective.

Why not let your OW go? Respect her choice...you made yours...she knew what she was doing when she destroyed your first marriage...she knew she had stolen goods...nothing can change that...for the vows she urged you to break, when she took them for herself, meant nothing. I hope you can see that...same for yours. You'd already vowed to another woman.

This is really tough...full of pain. I am not trying to add to it...I'm hoping to share what's behind what you're doing, how you're repeating. Because that's what I see...doesn't make it so, 'k?

All contact continues an A...you kept your EX in your life, through IM, through calls...those count as much as seeing her. Which is why I say repeatedly. See, you knew contact would hurt your partner...and you did it anyway. You knew it would hurt your marriage...and you chose to, anyway.

I'm wondering if these choices were about coming to grips with your past choices. See, you made your real BW (your XW) your OW in your current marriage because you put her before your marriage.

When you married your OW, she signed up to be hurt. She's got her half. She knew you were capable of bringing another woman into your marriage because she was the OW. That's what eats at the foundation, both for her inside regarding her choices and you, for yours.

Is your current wife stolen as well? Was she married at the time of your A?

Please share with us your stuff...the whys of your choices. You acknowledge you know you chose. Amends contain three parts...one, owning what you did, why you did it and why you are committed to not doing it again.

You can see where this ties into your whole married life...probably before that, as well. Unless you have all three parts, you won't choose differently. Not really. You'll want to...like a magic bullet...and you won't, because the self-knowledge wasn't there...

I can only imagine how very painful it would be to have forfeited so much, Ras. I do feel for you. There but for the grace of God went I...nearly lost all of it. And I'm not pointing a finger at you as a spotless BS...I'm a serial cheater who stopped. I wrecked a lot of devastation. Still can. I chose not to...finally knowing it is my choice.

Can you see the repeat in your life? You made a bad choice and you knew it was a bad one, and did it anyway. Knew it could ruin what you had and you did it anyway. Same is true for ending your first marriage due to infidelity. No one can change the past...we sure can repeat it. Again and again. I know. I remember. I stay alert.

Where you have choice, you have power...and you are surrounded by choices. I wasn't thumping you to get you to own your choices...I'm not that powerful. No one is...I was showing you your power...and now, your limits.

You cannot get your OW back. She chooses. She knew what she did to another wife could be done to her. She promised herself if you put your BW before your marriage, she would leave you. Would you consider respecting her wishes? Both of you have atonement...redemption...I believe...clawing at your guts. Lemme know if I'm close or not.

Do you believe in good guy/bad guy in your marriage? Did you believe that replacing your BW would solve the issues in your marriage? Have you come to realize it isn't who we partner with...it's being a great partner that matters?

People are not replaceable. Sure can seem so when we are more in fantasy than in reality.

You may consider that you tell yourself you're open with your OW; I don't believe you are. You rely on her finding out the truth of your calls and contact with XBW...open and honest means you tell her before you call, right after she calls...that's O&H. You rely on your partner finding out instead of informing her.

Have you talked openly about your desire to stay connected to XBW? (I'm only now adding the X because I'm running amok in myself.) How connected you feel with her with your new beautiful granddaughter...all the wondrous stuff...the flashes to your first two children with her...what is old is new again? That would be open and honest.

Thank you for sharing your OW isn't O&H, either. Seems you both know how much you need to hold the other accountable, and yet, do not work at your intimacy, at knowing and sharing your own stuff with each other.

About you spending time together...you're saying that you've done all this...the 3-day vacation, the nights out, since she found out you betrayed her on 10.30.07? Could be I'm just a jumble and not getting this...I thought she moved out and you were in grave fear of losing her?

It took a lot of self-deception to get me to cheat...and because I didn't address my own fantasy, wishfulness, self-lies, I didn't stop. Until I did. The story we tell ourselves of our reality is different from the reality we live in. It's how we do heinous acts. Knowing the difference, committing to highest honesty in ourselves for ourselves...is what breaks the cycle, exposes our habits, and frees us from our patterns.

I don't think I can really be of aid to you, Ras. I'm sorry. You believe in comparing human beings...one wife to another...one human better than another. Is there some possession or capture admiration thing going on with your current wife? You didn't dig in and know your real first wife...and I don't believe you know this one with consistent intimacy and newness. Comes from not knowing yourself...our primal fears are of intimacy and abandonment.

You answered my question about XBW and current one...you do compare them...and you say it wasn't an affair with your XBW because...why? When you attack your marriage by putting anyone/thing ahead of your marriage, it's an affair.

Can be with alcohol, drugs, food, gambling, people...lots of stuff. Your marriage wasn't your highest priority...you didn't hold yourself to the boundaries of marriage...and I don't understand why you would choose to now, with this OW, when you risked this affair marriage with your real XBW.

What does it really mean to you?

You said you fantasize about current wife...and I asked you if you did about XBW when you went to see her twice, lying to your current wife about it...and every call you took, every im you wrote...knowing that's exactly what you did TO your XBW when you were cheating on her with OW.

Confusing overlaps for me...too large. Fantasy, like what I'm talking about, is when you choose to not know reality. Doesn't mean sexual...means where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure. You choose your thoughts and where they dwell...becomes your treasure. If you dwelled on XBW, then you began to treasure her...risked current wife over XBW. Fantasy is imagining what it would have been like to be seeing your first granddaugther together, after a quarter century of marriage...of sharing your observations, feelings, all your stuff with the mother of your children...the man you might have been. That's fantasy now.

Didn't have to be...could have been your reality. You chose differently. For the last year and a half, from what I can tell, you've been making different choices.

Before your granddaughter's birth...did you have contact with XBW?

I don't think moving your thread is a good idea. There are a few people here on MB who believe that posting where other BS's can see an affair marriage in trouble are gravely harmed...they hurt. You're living their biggest fear...that their WS will leave, marry OW and that will be it.

Just like your XBW experienced. Did she remarry? If so, what does her H or BF think of your visits, calls, ims? Of your current relationship?

Did you tell your XBW when you visited her two weeks ago that your current wife is ten thousand times over than she is? Is that what you'll tell your children, your granddaughter? Think ahead...when your son leaves his wife (I'm guessing that's how had your granddaughter...if it was your daughter, please switch the scenario)...for another woman. And your granddaughter looks into your eyes and says, "Why didn't Daddy love me enough to stay? When will he replace me with another little girl, like he did Mommy?"

We don't outgrow that stuff.

And when your son tells his daughter, "My new wife is ten thousand times better than your mother"...your heart will shatter...I swear...and you will say to him, "Don't say that to her. Lie to her."

Because you hold these beliefs, you will continue to act from them...and they will continue do harm your dear self and every dear to you. Rippling onward, generation to generation. What you identified to change is surface stuff...get to the heart of how you're living, what you are living from. You're keeping yourself a secret from others and telling yourself you're open.

I remember this...I remember living that way.

Did you ever apologize or do amends to your BW? What we don't amend, we cannot change in ourselves.

LA

P.S. You can use the search feature to look up posts from threads...NC is no contact letter (there are samples in Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley). You can also look up others who began their marriages based on an affair...JustJilly, ManFromZor (I don't think I got his screen name right)...or just search "affair marriage"...so you can be prepared for what may happen on your thread.

I believe you can see why it would be so conflicting for people here to help you when you embody their worst fear...I hope they can take solace in seeing how your same state of mind from then to now persists...which is why we repeat.

Ras,

I would offer you the following advice. Read about Harley's 4 rules for a good marriage and take them to heart. Read his about his policies of radical honesty and joint agreement, and then read about needs. I think that will help you a bit.

However, I have some more difficult questions for you. What did you tell yourself that allowed yourself to cross not only your W's boundaries but I presume your own? How did you justify it?

I ask these questions because it seems to me your W is protecting her boundaries with regard to your behavior. You knew her boundaries and crossed them anyway. You also made vows when you married and while most people think they are making promises to their spouse on their wedding day, really these are promises to ourselves. After all who is going to keep those promise but yourself.

So assuming you feel you are a man of honor and a man to be trusted, what allowed you to violate your own boundaries and code of ethics??

I suspect your W worries that you have no boundaries, based on your affair with her and her fears are being validated by your sneaking off to see your ExW. I note she checks your cell phone recordes do you also check them? Is there balance in your marriage?

I am thinking what you need is a change of perspective with regard to what marriage is, and who you really are. You say you are changing and the changes you have listed are good, but are you changning your perspective? Are you going to become a man YOU admire and respect? Are you going to learn to value your marriage and yourself?

If you start to do these things, I suspect you will find many things in your life looking and feeling different, and I suspect you will find your marriage will improve.

Your W is insecure. She knows she took you from your exW and I suspect she has and does fear that you will go back. Whether that fear is well founded or not, if she has it, it is valid and you need to address it.

Please continue to read here, and also read some of the threads. You will find a remarkable consistency in the events of all of these peoples lives right down to the very words that are said to one another.

You have work to do, but mostly it seems to me the work needs to be internal. You need to become someone YOU respect and respect for the right reasons, such as honor, reliability, truthfulness, caring, and supporting of your W.

Just thoughts hope they help.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for the clarification. Yes I'd say that is correct. I betrayed her, her trust, her emotions and her love for me.


Perhaps you're right but I think the consequences of my first A have long since dwindled away.
I know that I gave up sharing our children. There were many guilt filled sleepless nights over that too. It was a choice I made and I stand by it. It was still better for all concerned. I don't think anyone in my family, my W's family or my XW's family that would deny it.


I know I gave that up. It was a long time ago and I'm well aware of that. Those decisions were made amidst a lot of pain and tears and I stand by them. I didn't want it back, just wanted to see her once, that was all.


Much like the grief that is hitting me now as I realize that I perhaps will not share my W's grandchildren and children as I always have and that she will no longer share mine with me.



Yes, it has been a tough road. My beliefs were and still are that I could not have continued to stay married to my XW. If the affair had not ended it something else would have sooner or later. I had the affair for a year while married. When the divorce was filed and finalized I was single so yes, I considered the rest of it dating. I was no longer married.



That's why I came here, Tyk told me it would get rough but I came anyway. I want to save this marriage.


First, she IS NOT OW any more, hasn't been for some 18 years, 13 of them as a married couple. She is my wife, my partner and my lover. I don't want to let her go because I love her deeper than I have ever loved anyone, because we have built a life and a relationship and it's been a good one, a very strong one. These are the reasons I have for wanting to save this if we can.


I know that, I am asking for help. You can't give me any if you don't observe and comment.


Yes, I did know it and chose to do it anyway. It was a bad choice and I did it anyway and I am sorry for it. Nothing I can do will change the fact that the choice was made, I accept that and will have to live with it.


I don't think so, that is long over. She is married and has a husband and a home and a life that she doesn't want to
change.

Honestly, I was chatting with her she invited me out to her place and I went knowing that I shouldn't but telling myself that no one know but me would no and that it would be okay this time even though it was not okay and never had been. I lied to me and to my W.


Yes, I know that. I'm sure she feels exactly that way as well. I'm not sure what else to say. I would like to say that our marriage has been wonderful, strong and full of love for the vast majority of these 13 years.
I could not have possible been happier with anyone else. I know we had an affair that started this. I also believe that we truly do love each other and can save this marriage if we will both work on it.


No, she was divorced after an abusive relationship and 3 children. I was the WS, not her.


I honestly don't know why I did it. I am a soft hearted and emotional person. I give in to others needs easily.
That's part of how my W and I got together, we were BOTH needing something we didn't have any longer and found it in each other's company.
I learned from your previous post that I likely have very low esteem. I had never thought that before but after reading it and thinking about it over night I have decided that you are likely correct.

Why I am committed to not doing it again? Because I recognize the mistake I have made, twice now and I don't care for the consequences. I want my life and my marriage to be successful. I deeply love my W and want to remain her partner and for her to remain mine. That is why I came here, to learn how I could change and do that.



I'm here to gain the knowledge and to apply it.
I CAN change, I know I can. It may take time and will take help but I can do it.
Most of all I WANT to change.


It has been very painful. As the children came of age and started their own lives the pain lessened to the point that is almost gone. I do still tear up when I see pictures of my kids as small children and know that I missed all that part of their lives. We have a good relationship now though and I am trying to be a part of their adult lives where i missed out on the early days.


All so true. Except that I didn't want to repeat it. I know that is over, has been for a long time. I harbor no love for
my XW. I know that we ended that and that it will stay ended. I did not go see her in attempt to start an affair or recover what we had once. That is gone, I made those choices long ago.


Where you have choice, you have power...and you are surrounded by choices. I wasn't thumping you to get you to own your choices...I'm not that powerful. No one is...I was showing you your power...and now, your limits.



I still refuse to call her "OW" after 13 years of marriage. She is my wife.
Yes, I will respect her wishes. I am here in hopes that she will also come here and see what is said, see if she thinks there is help and hope for us. Above all though, yes, I will respect her wishes, she is a strong woman, much stronger than I am.
I know that it's clawing at her like it is me so you're right on the money yet again.



This is exactly we are together, because we are great partners together, have always been even long before the affair we always worked together very well as a team. My former partner was none of things.



Never wanted to replace anything but the resentment that has grown between us with the love that we once had.



Absolutely correct. Just another in a long line of poor decisions I'm afraid.



She used not mind that we were in contact because she realized that we needed to be with small and later teenage children. I'm sure she never liked it but she allowed it for the kids. She is right, with them both grown adults there is no further need for us to be in contact unless there is an emergency, even then others could get in touch with me.

The rest of that "what's old is new again" and "wondrously connected" no, none of that. We were both just being proud grandparents and chatting about the baby and my son and his girl. Nothing more.


We both know that we could communicate better. I have expressed my desire to do that many times. I know that sometimes she tries but has great difficulty opening up to me. For some reason she feels like she can't, that I am not there for her. I am sorry she feels that way, I have always wanted to be there for her to talk to, open to and show her true feelings.



Perhaps I was unclear. No, these things have all taken place over the last year and a half or so. We reconnected with some old friends and they invited us out to the studio to hear the band. It quickly became our weekly date night because my wife loves live music (as do I) and loves to dance. It's been a wonderful addition to our work week. Her learning to ride has been an activity for the whole of this last summer. I'm very proud of her for it and very proud that she made the decision to learn on her own, not at my suggestion. I was perfectly happy with her on the back of mine, now I have to worry a bit more.
The trip to Ark was just at the end of last month and we had a fabulous time, made plans to return in the spring and tentative plans for a weekend in a nearby place that we stopped on the way back home.
She did just leave me and I am in grave fear of losing her, that part is certainly correct.



I see that you have gained great insight and knowledge and have had the ability to change your habits and own your decisions. I believe that I can do that as well.



I'm sorry that you don't think you can help me. I was told you were one of the best here.
I compared them here for you I guess. I never have in my mind other than a comparison of the love and devotion I get from my wife and the fact that I got very little of it from XW. I wish that you could know me better, you might have a different opinion of my ability to know myself. I believe that I do. I have learned many things in 47 years of life and I will learn more.
Capture/admiration? Like a trophy wife or soemthing. No, the only admiration I hold is for my wife and her accomplishments. I am very proud of her and also extremely pleased that she chose to be my wife. My friends and family all love her, she is a part of all of our lives and we are richer to have her.

You answered my question about XBW and current one...you do compare them...and you say it wasn't an affair with your XBW because...why? When you attack your marriage by putting anyone/thing ahead of your marriage, it's an affair.

Can be with alcohol, drugs, food, gambling, people...lots of stuff. Your marriage wasn't your highest priority...you didn't hold yourself to the boundaries of marriage...and I don't understand why you would choose to now, with this OW, when you risked this affair marriage with your real XBW.

What does it really mean to you?




That it was somehow justification for it, no, not at all. I didn't consider that i was doing the same thing to my wife that I had to my XW previously. There is nothing between us, hasen't been in many, many years


No, there is no "what might have been fantasy at all. Those decisions were made long ago, she is also married. I have no interest in rekindling what died some 20 years ago, that is passed.
I want to share these things with my wife as I have shared her grand kids with her.


I have been trying to. I have recognized things that I do that upset my wife and have tried to change them, to be attentive to her needs and desires. To show that I stood beside her with whatever decision she made. I still do.
I didn't change enough or fast enough and I am sorry for that as well. I can only say that I will continue to try. I will not give up on this woman, my wife.



Yes but it was minimal, still is. I know that's bad, just didn't know how bad it could be.




Delete it if you like, the last thing I wanted to was come here and cause more harm and pain than I already have. It was suggested to me that I could find help here, perhaps Tyk was wrong.



She has been married twice since our divorce. Her partner knows that we chat, I don't know what else he knows. We don't have what I'd call a relationship although i'm sure i'm wrong about that. Just some on line chatting and a poor decision by me. if that makes a relationship then I guess we have one but it isn't anything more than that.


No of course i didn't say that to her 2 weeks ago. She knows it and has pointed out to me many times how much better a person and better for me my wife is.
yes the kids. I never in any way belittled the mother to them. Tried my best to teach them to have respect for her and to obey her wishes
When my kids asked me why I didn't love them nough to stay I told them that I loved them more than anything in the world but did not love their mother any longer. that I was not replacing them, I was trying to help myself and therefore them as ewell. My first marriage was terribly destructive on many froonts and I still think it was best for the the kids, myself and my XW that I left.



I believe in my heart that my son has learned a lot from the father's mistakes. that he will be a much better father and husband than I ever was and that he will remain with his partner forever.



I want to change these things about myself, again that's what I came here looking for, suggestions, help to change myself. I am keeping no secrets about how i am living and what I am living from. I have said aloud in public many times that i live on the dreams of my wife and I's retirement days. On the dream of being with her, running a small hotel or some such.
I may have misunderstood your question but that is what I thought you meant.
Yes, I know the things I have identified are surface things.
this is a beginning for me(I hope for us) and the surface seems the best place to start, those will be the most visible changes and I believe that when I make them I will be able to make further, deeper changes in myself.



yes, that was done long ago. long before I married my wife. I did it to make an ending for us and it did. there are no remorseful feelings over the divorce any longer on either side of it.

LA


Thank you, I will do some reading.






Perhaps I was wrong in even coming here then. I was seeking help and opinions. This was suggested to me. Again, if you like delete this thread and my membership but I was under the impression that this site was to help marriages, not just BS's.
The last thing I want to do is cause further pain or emotional distress for anyone. God knows I've created a life time worth of it already.

Sorry, I thought I had already posted this for Just Learning. I'm still not real comfortable with this boar's software.

For Just Learning:


I will, thanks for the advice.


Because I believed and still do that there was nothing to it, that it was all in innocence with no love or feeling attached to it. Just 2 first time grand parents talking. Going to see her was a bad idea, I never should have and I know that, wish I could go back and change it but I can't. Thats' why I am here now trying to learn. I was not interested in her as a partner, I want the partner I have. Why did I cross my own boundaries? I guess that LA is perhaps correct in that I have low self esteem. The more I dwell on that the more apparent it becomes.


No one but myself can keep these promises that we made on that June day so long ago. I still hear the words from that day. My wife even modified our vows and used them on my anniversary card a few years back. She wrote them and she wrote them well.



Yesterday I would have said "stupidity". Today I say a lack of respect for myself foremost with an underlying lack of respect for my marriage. I am trying to change that on both counts


I have once again reset my boundaries, probably to late but i still have. I am sure that my wife has fears about losing me the same way she got me> I have asked, she has always answered that she did not but I found it difficult to believe.


I am trying to change my perspective. I realize that I need to I also believe that my wife needs to communicate better with me as well as I with her.
I greatly value this marriage, that is why I am here seeking help.



I hope you are correct. that is what I want more than anything.


Yes, I know this. I want her to give the opportunity to do so.
She has no reason to fear that and I want to prove that to her. I am hers and want her to be mine. We really have had a wonderful marriage all these years. Yes, we have become comfortable and complacent and don't work on it the way we should but it is still a wonderful and strong union between 2 people who I believe still love each other very much.


Thanks for the kind words. I will continue to read adn attempt to learn from others concerns and experiences.


Yes, I know I have A LOT of work to do. I am ready for it. I have confidence that I can do this, that I can change and repair this marriage, that WE can repair it together.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think this shows that I am already trying to gain greater respect for myself. Trying to be the man that I know i can be.



Thanks so much, I really do appreciate your thoughts. If you have more feel free to add them, that is what I came here for.

Ras

Ras,

You have failed in contacting your exW twice in person. Your W has given you little chance to recover this. Why? What else is going on that she would just leave a persumably good marriage because you had contact with exW given that it was not an emotional affair nor a physical one. If this is truly about grandchildren, why did you not tell her the first time or the second time? Why is contact with your exW about grandchildren bothering her so? Is it the lying? If so have you lied to her about other things as well?

She has been gone awhile, and she feels she has nothing left to give, but I am not sure she was working so hard that she is burnt out now.

I look forward to your thoughts. Is it possible that it is she that is having an affair????

God Bless,

JL

Ras,

About deleting your thread...please don't. I was informing you, not directing you.

When this has happened before, some posters urged the new poster to move to Other Topics. I don't know what will happen here...just giving you an MB history lesson.

JustLearning is the one who I believe saved my own marriage. You got da big guns. (I'm laughing at including myself in with my mentor...I still don't know how to express my gratitude to him.)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Do you understand better how not knowing why you risked so much for what you say was nothing, really impacts your life? Only you can look within and figure out your own whys.

You mentioned resentment and that's a great place to begin your investigation.

Gimble wrote: An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

In this marvelous formula there is explanation and new boundaries to form...part of the quest you're on, your changes. Right there.

It's like naming the disease and the cure, in one.

Please know why you did it and share. It's the first step in changing your life...identifying and sharing your whys.

You mention pleasing...emotionally soft hearted person? Your XBW invited and you went. Would it surprise you to know how much disrespect is in our marriage when we are pleasers?

And yes, it is tied to low self-esteem. Reasonably so. Self-esteem is SELF built...comes from each of our choices, from our awareness, and how we hold ourselves to our priorities and boundaries. Pleasers base their esteem on how others perceive them, define and respond to them. Response-based living...which I call living externally, through other people, to get to ourselves.

I don't believe there is a stereo-typical pleaser. I was one...the sacrificing, earning-love kinda gal...who did and did and did for people...choices I made based on their possible response to me.

My DH is a different kind...a man who can't say no to someone, who caretakes their emotions, their responses...same basis, though...response-based.

We've learned to act to our code, not based on possible response. Has made all the difference in our lives...finally built real self-respect and self-esteem...because we chose to act from respect love, not react to our emotions.

I want to be of service to you, Ras. I believe in redemption...that we are all made from the same hands...we are equal because of it...and everyone on the planet can make different choices today...that's inherent newness, contains parts of forgiveness...and constant change.

You suggested deleting your thread because it may do more harm to other newbie BS's...what if humans do harm? What if humans, bumping together on this planet, harm one another? I'm going to respect that those who read your thread listen to where it hits them inside, ask themselves if this is healthy to read now, to draw their life-lines from...and what they want to learn about.

I believe they can see from your posts, your presence, that a wayward state of mind does persist...as JustJilly evidenced in her story (married 12 years with one child of the marriage)...and she didn't get it until her WH had an A. She couldn't see her own continued wayward perspective, nor his...now they do. They are working it out, as well.

I believe it takes what it takes for humans to wake up. If you want to contribute to others here on MB, then in your thread, identify what is the same for you in your first marriage that is in your current one. Identify what is different about you, your choices, from the first to the current one.

In this way, whatever BS's choose to read this, when it isn't their reality, isn't their future, either (we don't know until we get there), maybe they would choose to understand more of what the wayward state of mind is...the signals...for justifying, self-deception, what parts entitlement, resentment and not respecting (which isn't admiration...it's knowing people are separate and equal, their truth from the truth) they may have in themselves they can change to see clearly what really is before them and what isn't...for these are great signals of fantasy...our brain processing our truth as the truth.

Which I believe is what ripples, engulfs and destroys marriages and relationships (same in FOO...family of origin, work relationships and our relationship with God...in my experience).

Ras, take another look at "just being proud grandparents together. Nothing more." (I didn't copy that...just read it...hope I got it correctly.) Will you directly into the sun for me for a moment...you risked your current marriage for nothing more. You chose to go and be proud grandparents together, in each other's presence, excluding your wife. That's a huge choice...there's "nothing" about it. You shared with XBW what you cannot really share with your current wife...you cannot be proud grandparents together...which is a life experience of great importance. You can share in her grandchildren...and she in your new little one. Not the same...can you see how this in part was a fantasy? For you said you know you forfeited that reality...you chose differently, several years ago...and there you were, willing it back into being, even though your wife said she would leave you if you did so again.

Hard to bring reality, Ras. I'm doing my best right now and really understanding how my BH felt when he attempted to bring it to me.

I don't subscribe to not changing fast enough...if you choose to change for yourself, to change your life experience (which is what I heard you say)...that's the priority, not the speed. Do you believe that your changes can change your wife's mind? They really can't. She changes her mind. You act to rebuild trust through transparency, radical honesty, learning communication skills...lots of recovery work...her half is to choose to bestow her trust over time.

I realize the perspective that we can change others is common...we act to get a certain response from them and believe we have that power...I'm emphasizing we do not. Nor do they have that power for us. Our limit...we cannot be the cause, control or cure for anyone else. Our responsibility is solely our own. Tough for me to digest. I lived in the opposite state of mind...if I earned better, faster, was smarter, pleased more then...I would be loved, accepted, appreciated...and I would exist.

Changing now, for you, will change your life.

I learned that at Alanon, Ras. I learned about power and limits...and I've read it in many books since, including "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend.

I'm the one who is unclear on your wife being your W or the OW. Not you. What act did you take to make that really happen? I say that because in amends, you must own what you did, why you did what you did, and why you won't do it again...the very people you harmed. I don't hear you owning your choice to tear your family apart...I don't hear what you learned about yourself, what you thought then you don't think now...I hear you saying you did the right thing for everyone based on how it's all turned out.

Living by evidence will kick your tushie, Ras. You gave your wife solid evidence that you put XBW before her. You can't unchange that. That evidence stands. So if you live from evidence, there is no redemption. I hope I'm being clear here...this is tough for me.

When we own the past, we can live in the present fully.

When I asked you about the comparison your wife as ten thousand times better than the mother of your children, I wasn't stabbing at you...I understand that could feel like a deep bite. I'm going for your thoughts, your perspective in this life...because that one is really detrimental to why you're here.

I hear you're on MB because you want to save THIS marriage...and don't believe that if you'd changed, worked hard to save your previous marriage that you could of...can you see the disparity here? You had as much opportunity then as you do now, as much power, to do what you wish to do now. I don't see how you can do that now if you still believe you couldn't have, had you had the tools, then.

In the amends which can change your life and your save your marriage...can you say, in highest honesty, that you did everything possible to save your first marriage? Would your children believe you?

They work through their own forgiveness of you, love you for a lifetime as their father...and work hard on forgiving themselves, too. Read on here how many fathers left mothers and handed down infidelity. I wasn't extending out some crazy scenario--you may very well experience it in your children. Infidelity affects generations...you may look in your own childhood and find it...(Family Secrets by John Bradshaw). Really helps on the self-journey to changing your life by knowing what secrets still affect you now, and you've passed onto your children.

This is not condenmation...my intent is the truth from our actions, not you as a punching bag. I realize fully how much my questions, my words, can hurt you further. I had not known I could feel such intense pain as I did three years ago. I'm not asking you anything which wasn't asked of me, or what I had to ask of myself to really change.

I don't believe Blame belongs in marriage. You may hear me assigning blame...my marriage was brimming with blame for 15 years...until we removed it. Finally. Another part of fantasy we lived in, corrosive as resentment. Inherent in resentment.

Mathematics of God's design of humans...we can only be half of every relationship we have in our lifetimes. We cannot be more or less. Each choice we make, word we say, action we take is solely ours. We even have control over how much or little another human influences us. Very powerful and limited. We own all of our half and all of our life experience.

Don't ask me why the math fails with sharing pain halves it; and sharing your joy doubles it. I'm a writer not a math gal.

Just does.

Another human truth is pure justice. Whatever you do to others, you will do to yourself. Whatever you do not allow others to do to you, you won't do to yourself. There's an unyielding two-way street within us...if you permit yourself to cross your own boundaries (dishonor your wife), then you will permit her, your children, others to do the same.

We don't enforce boundaries we do not hold ourselves to...which bleeds out a marriage. For there is you, your wife and The Marriage. When you do not feel like respecting your wife, respect The Marriage. There are marital boundaries you hold yourself to for the health of the Marriage...regardless of what your wife is doing or not doing.

As for what your son or daughter may or may not do with their partners...how are you different from your own father? Again, not attacking...I believe you're well aware of when we stand aghast and say, "Oh my gosh, I AM my mother" or father...when we spent the first halves of our lives pushing against what we didn't want to be.

The sins of the fathers will be visited upon the sons has to do with permissions, justifications, soothing in fantasy and living in self-deception. Believe me, I was probably very much like your XBW...I was abusive with my DH and our children. I see a lot of me in my children...in their behaviors. I'm amending now...and yes, feels too little, too late.

I have to know it isn't.

I'm concerned about the order of your changes...you already said you changed your actions, the surface stuff for the last year and a half...and now your wife has left. Right after you had a fantastic UA time together...you crossed a marital boundary. If you want to continue on the surface stuff, I understand. I don't think that's saving your marriage.

I believe the order necessary is awareness from the inside out...because your actions do not match, make no sense, for a self-aware man who knows his choices and accepts his consequences. Gosh, that sounds emasculating and judgmental to me. I don't know how else to say it...I know my perception of me, since it was through others' eyes, was that I was amazing, smart, competent, loving, loyal...and I wasn't. I didn't live from my stuff...I drank in others' opinions as to who I was...I was mostly all the opposites.

I believed I was born defective, less than. I lived FROM my fear of abandonment and intimacy (fear of intimacy for me...if you knew the real me, you'd hate me). Like running place...a slave to my self-image, and abandoning my own self. Very inside out...didn't seem that way on the surface.

I lived from evidence...proof of love. If you do this, you love me. If you don't, then you don't. Ring any bells? I ask because your wife may be saying the exact same thing. You can't love me like your lips say because your actions say you don't. Inside out means we can't align to what we really want. We aren't acting from pure intent, in our highest honesty. I see more of this for you, this terribly painful and fear-filled place you choose from, if you don't do the inside work first.

Search for an MC who is pro-marriage (I included Christian-based), familiar with Harley's work and materials. Make an appointment (you can even do so by phone with the Harleys...info for contact is on this website) and go. Invite your wife to go with you...if she chooses not to, choose to go anyway.

Get the books, read and study...for the tools you've lacked are from lack of knowledge, not ability. You're able. You can do this.

Do not accept "I don't know" for yourself. If you have an "I don't know right now. I will find out" in place...then you will find out.

Learning is knowledge. Wisdom is self-knowledge. See what you've been winging in your belief system and what is real from your adult experience. We accumulate thousands of beliefs...begin choosing them as toddlers...before we know we choose our beliefs. Ferret out the ones which are giving you this life experience...the conflicts and the contrasts. So you can align fully to your goal and live from it.

My point of living from evidence of love was because you said you want to save your marriage because you deeply love your wife. Do you mean you have deep loving feelings for her...or because you choose to believe you love her and therefore act from your choice?

Can you feel the stab in your belief that your wife is better than your XBW? I ask because if you believe this, then if you meet someone one million times better, your current wife is understandably history. You can see how you and your XBW think alike...and have lived from that belief. That certain partners are better than others...the onus being on the partner, not ourselves.

This is important to saving THIS marriage...that you feel no remorse for not saving your first marriage...because if it's selective...that you might not be in a marriage worth saving...you won't act to really do so, even if you feel like you want to.

About posting and deleting (from what you said at the end of your post)...don't own others' stuff. Posters choose what they read...respect their power. You can do harm...doesn't mean others will hurt. May mean they will hurt greatly. When you are sure of your intent, holding yourself to your own code, you will understand how disrespectful it is to not respect others' feelings come to them, from them and are about them and their choices.

Half. If your intent is pure, you know what you're doing and focus on your half...then choose to let the response go. With advice offered, your half is to choose what you take and leave the rest. Did you feel I was shaming you, so you were willing to delete your posts? We can feel shame...was not my intent. Awareness and choice will change your life, build your self-esteem, respect and your marriage.

First lesson of O&H...use "I" statements. "You're shaming me" has no value...isn't real. "I feel shame right now" is valid. How you own your stuff. Not making your truth into The Truth. Not defining reality...owning your choice of perception, perspective, thoughts and beliefs. Owning your own feelings. How authentic self communicates to your brain...sends signals to you from your beliefs. They are called feelings. We don't feel therefore we are. We think therefore we feel.

I lived that backwards for forty years of my life. I'm passing it on to you.

MB is all about saving marriages, building thriving ones...your recognition of other BS's (not all about them or not about them at all, in the middle) is respectful. Own only your part, 'k?

LA

If you want real help, you will need to tell the truth. If you want your marriage to work, it will have to be based on the truth. LA is right, your actions do not match your words, and that makes you incredible, as in, not-credible.

It is a common state of being for Wayward Spouses, and it is time for you to come clean about the fact that this is exactly what you are and have been in one form or another pretty much your whole adult life.

MG shares some blame in this, she knew what you were when she married you.

I don't even know what to say man. I hope you find what you are seeking here, I hope you really listen to what these people are telling you. I hope you stop living a lie, you probably don't even realize how much doing so has tainted your being. I sense that you want to change, and I hope you are capable of it regardless of what happens with your M.

I really did bring you into the lions den didn't I? I may not have advised you come here had I known the real story, hopefully it will all turn out for the best anyway.

If you want REAL help, turn to the one who created you.,,.,. and your wife.

"I am the truth and the way and the life"

He will most certainly help get you upright, with Him, and with your wife.

"Seek and ye shall find"

Best

OWF

One of the new choices you can make today is coming back and posting. I've read your wife's posts.

Are you choosing not to post today because you fear something? Feel something?

Post anyway. When you do brave, you experience yourself as brave.

And you are. You're worth it.

LA

I fear nothing. Certainly nothing here.
I have been thinking. I have been busy as well but mostly I have been thinking about what I am reading and what I am feeling. You didn't "shame me", you can't. I can feel shame and do but you didn't do it, I did.
I do not always choose the correct word, if you misunderstand something, ask for clarification.
I am not a writer.
I will post on Morning dove's now, this one is done.

edited because I felt like I wasn't clear and can't punctuate for a sack o' beans.

I personally like the separate threads, you are both approaching this from a different perspective and the questions and advice for each of you are different. I could see the combined thread getting quite complicated, but that is just my opinion.

I'm glad to see you're still here Ras.

I read your post on MD's thread.

I'm of the same mind as Tyk...because I've seen other partners come here and continue their patterns of refuting, pointing fingers, same as they do in person, with each other.

I don't think there is one right way...I think separate threads aids the focus on the person posting, breaking some patterns, or highlighting them, in their communication.

Are you going to send those pictures to xWBH? Are you going to choose honesty now, in every way, for yourself?

Goes a long way in rebuilding your own credibility through ownership. Freeing yourself.

LA