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#1969575 11/11/07 05:07 PM
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Give it a couple of months at least for him to realize what he did. By then, if you are willing to forgive him, you can take him back.

But, then again, he might actually fall in love with her if what you said is true that she is really "so nice."
Best Advisor

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There are some who feel that those feelings of love are a signal from God to abandon past relationships and rush into this new relationship. But it's no signal from God. Instead, it's the way our emotions mindlessly encourage us to spend more time with those who meet our emotional needs. If we submitted to our emotions, and chased after anyone who at the moment deposited the most love units in our Love Banks, our lives would become chaotic in no time. And the lives of family and friends, to say nothing about our own lives, would be trashed.

***************
Most affairs don't end a marriage. But unless the marital problems that helped create the affair are resolved, an affair can sure make a marriage a lot worse than it was before the affair. The letters C.W. and S.C wrote are proof of that.

Still, after an affair is over, a couple has a window of opportunity to fix what was wrong in a way that can make their marriage better than it ever was.


*************
One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity.

~~~Dr. Harley~~~

And a big thank you to Dr. Harley for his large part in saving my marriage with his wonderful, God-given advice.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Keep in mind, I used the word "might," NOT "will" or "chances are" or "likely." Might could mean 30%, 10%, 1% or even .00001% chance.

You (or Dr. Harley) used the words "Most affairs don't end a marriage," NOT "ALL affairs..." which means that some affairs might end up as marriages.

In conclusion, we both are right.

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Love and lust are never equivalent.

The lust that destroys a marriage is never love.

Some affairs end as marriages, but that doesn't make them love, and it doesn't make them right.

I guess it all depends on your definition of "right".


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Love and lust are never equivalent.

The lust that destroys a marriage is never love.

Some affairs end as marriages, but that doesn't make them love, and it doesn't make them right.

I guess it all depends on your definition of "right".

Wow, you're either way off topic or you mis-understood me.

Are you saying that in the history of human kind, there is no affair, not even one, that end up in marriage and love eventually? Keep in mind, I am not disagreeing with you that most don't.

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First, no I do not believe that any affairs ended as a GOOD marriage with TRUE LOVE. True love cannot spring from lust. They are as different as night and day.

And as to being way off topic or misunderstanding, in those two sentences to a desperate newcomer, you introduced a plethora of topics. I disagree with you on all of them.

You: Give it a couple of months at least for him to realize what he did.
Dr. Harlsy: Give it a couple of years. Almost all affairs are dead by then.
You: By then, if you are willing to forgive him, you can take him back.
Dr. Harley: Separation is a last resort.
You: But, then again, he might actually fall in love with her if what you said is true that she is really "so nice."
Dr. Harley: Those feelings are the way our emotions mindlessly encourage us to spend more time with the ones who meet our needs.
God: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.


To say something like you did to a wounded and heartsore newbie who needs the hope that so many of us here can rightfully give....completely boggles my mind.



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What Are Plan A and Plan B?
by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.




Dear Dr. Harley,
My husband and I have separated and are trying to work our way back together again. We have found the information in your web site to be very helpful in reaching that goal. But some of the letters in your forum comment about "Plan A" and "Plan B" regarding marital separation. We have searched your site and don't find an explanation of what those plans are. Could you refer me to material that would give me that information?

C.H.



Dear C.H.,
I suggest plan A and plan B to couples who are struggling with infidelity. From your letter, it's not clear to me that infidelity is the issue that led to your separation, and so these two plans may not be relevant to your situation. But I will explain plan A and plan B to you anyway, and then also address the pros and cons of marital separation when infidelity is not the issue.

Infidelity is one of the most thoughtless, dishonest and cruel acts of self-indulgence imaginable. And yet, for over 30 years betrayed spouses have told me they are willing to reconcile if I can help them find a way to restore love to their marriage, help them overcome the resentment they feel, and provide assurance that it won't happen again. With these conditions in mind, I have created a strategy that has helped thousands of couples reconcile.

My overall plan for marital recovery after an affair has three basic stages. The first stage separates the unfaithful spouse and the lover; the second stage maintains that separation through the period of emotional withdrawal experienced by the unfaithful spouse who is addicted to the lover; and the third stage recovers love between spouses, eliminates resentment of the betrayed spouse, and protects the marriage against future affairs. The goals of the third stage are achieved by following Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time).

With this background, we're ready to talk about Plan A and plan B. These two plans are used in the first stage of marital recovery to separate the unfaithful spouse from the lover. They are alternative ways to deal with this objective and are both described in my book, "Surviving an Affair" (pages 75-83).

My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely.

It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again.

But what can a betrayed spouse do when the unfaithful spouse refuses to totally separate from the lover? That's where plan A and plan B come to the rescue.

Let me quote from "Surviving an Affair:"


You may think that after a spouse willfully chooses a lover (over the betrayed spouse), there would be no hope for marital reconciliation, but that's not true. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. And almost all affairs end sooner than most people think they will.
But for the betrayed spouse, waiting for the affair to end seems like an eternity. The wayward spouse can't seem to make up his or her mind -- one moment committing to the marriage and the next moment committing to the lover. To help a betrayed spouse survive that painful period of vacillation -- the time it takes for an affair to die a natural death -- I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse.

So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation.

The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.

I encourage you and your husband to make a commitment to follow the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time, and once the commitment is made, end your separation and begin a marriage that will last a lifetime.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Neak - never argue ********edit*** They only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. It's a lost cause.

She no doubt thinks she could stand in for Dr Harley. LOLOL.

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BigK <---- right as always <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've got some laundry that needs doing, and maybe a few kids that need a good old fashioned Texas whoopin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Time to stop banging my head against the wall is the message that I'm getting.

Oh, and Happy Armistice Day, right?


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Yes Neak. 11/11. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
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Are you saying that in the history of human kind, there is no affair, not even one, that end up in marriage and love eventually? Keep in mind, I am not disagreeing with you that most don't.


But since this ends up as the unrepentant sin of adultry, the two love birds will never enter the kingdom of Heaven. What a tragic loss. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

All blessings,
Jerry

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Allrighty, well I shall think of all your brave blokes as I fold undies.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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True love cannot spring from lust.

Do you actually believe that most husbands (men) did not lust after their wives when they first met them?

If your above difinition is true, most marriages are not true loves.

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... most husbands (men)...

This clarification by Bad Advisor is very telling and suggests what someone else guessed about her might be true. No wonder she doen't get it.

BA- still waiting to hear your story. I bet it's a doozy.

Replace SB? (snicker, chuckle, out right guffaw, ROFLMAO) Not in your wildest dreams.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Best Advisor wrote:
Give it a couple of months at least for him to realize what he did. By then, if you are willing to forgive him, you can take him back.

But, then again, he might actually fall in love with her if what you said is true that she is really "so nice."
Best Advisor

BA,

PLEASE please, read the Harley articles (on-line/books) and learn about Harley's principles by reading the forum before giving out advice, especially to the very vunerable new comers.

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Dear *****edit******

. You might find this useful in your search for truth...
****edit***********

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Hello BA.

Let me first state where I agree with what I understand to be the thrust of a couple of your arguments :

* There is little tolerance in some quarters of opinions that do not align with MarrigeBuilders principles on these boards. It can look like totalitarianism.

* People who advise contrary to MB, particularly with some confidence or even arrogance can be jumped on hard, quite quickly by some board members.

That said, I think it may be useful to explain why this might be in my opinion. You are at liberty, of course, to print my opinion off and use it as hamster bedding, completely up to you.

Firstly while in a post-modern worldview everyone creates their own reality, and so every opinion is equally valid, in practicality , not all opinion or advice if of the same quality or likely good effect.

Dr Harley's MB constructs aren't his opinion, like my opinion of reality TV shows , or of vegetarian chilli. He is an acknowledged expert in the field of relationships, and particularly building marriages. He has a half century of empirically tested and annotated experience to draw from , not to mention all the academic sources competing and according that he has access to as a respected expert in this field.

Yet, if all this wisdom was inaccessible to hurting folks in the throes of infidelity, or not usable in their lives, his tenets would likely not be so strongly advocated on these boards.

It is that Dr H took this huge body of study and personal counselling experience and distilled that into a set of highly accessible books (and many of the concepts and resources available free of charge on this site)that even the emotionally crippled could apply and derive success from.

Most of the "barefoot doctors" on these boards are people who were once destroyed by infidelity or other marriage problems, and who applied Dr Harley's MB tenets into their own situation to great effect.

So in summary, the people who advise here have every reason to advocate MB principles not because they're one-eyed or paid by the Harleys, but because they truly believe that this is the best way for those afflicted by infidelity to proceed.

your quote :

Quote
Keep in mind, I used the word "might," NOT "will" or "chances are" or "likely." Might could mean 30%, 10%, 1% or even .00001% chance.

You (or Dr. Harley) used the words "Most affairs don't end a marriage," NOT "ALL affairs..." which means that some affairs might end up as marriages.

In conclusion, we both are right.

Is of course true, but does the tiny demonstrable chance of your advice working out make it the best advice to give a person ?

Let me put it another way - imagine ( God forbid!) you visited a two advisors to decide upon a cancer treatment :

One, a cancer specialist doctor advises " resection and six months of chemotherapy "
Another person , inexperienced and untaught says "just leave it, cancers can go away on their own".

Who gave the best advice, BA ? Because there are some few documented examples of cancers disappearing on their own, is that good advice when there is a PROVEN well indicated plan of action available ?

Even though the resection and chemotherapy course doesn't always work, is it REALLY equivalent advise to the well intentioned opinion of "best diagnoser" ?

Dr James Dobson says in "Love must be tough"

Quote
The fastest horse doesn't always win, but you should still stake your money on it".

On these boards Dr H's advice, along with compatible advice from other experts like Dr Dobson is what is deemed the " fastest horse".

We are not a bunch of folks who show up, declaring expertise in a subject and pontificating as happens on many internet forums. On these boards it is truly peoples LIVES and VERY SOULS that are at stake when we advise , and there is no place for vanity advising IMO.

So you see, BA, you show up here with an arrogant "sobriquet" offering advise that is quite clearly at odds with what many veteran posters KNOW to be most effective, claiming your opinion has parity with Dr H's half century of expert study.

There is CERTAINLY 1% indignation that "BA hasn't earned her wings how dare she post so confidently?" in the criticism you have received, but BA you are advising that which many of us KNOW is likely to make bad situations worse.

Who would you want advising your kids if they were in trouble : people well versed in a proven resolution, or people who have a strongly held opinion without the benefit of study or application ?

Well many of us feel very "parental" to the poor broken souls who show up here on a daily basis and it chafes us badly to see poor advice offered at people's most vulnerable and needful time.

You have been advised to study MB and Dr H's principles before you advise. That is GREAT advice IMO. If you want to advise here, nobody can stop you but surely you would not want to be responsible for bad situations getting worse by giving out uninformed opinion as advice ?

Or, speaking as candidly as only an internet stranger can, if you want to be queen bee of some forum somewhere and be held high as a smart person, despite you not really having more than "opinion" to support your case, find a board where the outcomes are less visceral and existential than this.

I have tried to explain here why you have wandered into "hostile territory" BA, if I can help to explain further, just ask.


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Most excellent post Bob!

IF 'best advisor' REALLY is interested in helping to end adultery and save marriages, BA would have no excuse to continue posting in a way that conflicts with MB principles.
If BA is merely ignorant yet well-intentioned, that can be remedied.

If however, BA is driven by an agenda to defend adulteyr and destroy marriages, then we can expect to see more of the same from BA.

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Just a couple of quick comments here first:

The word translated today as "love" in I Corinthians 13 is the Greek word "agape." (Still wish this forum supported Greek characters, BTW) It was once translated as the word "charity" because it has no direct equivalent in the English language. This type of "love" is an ideal and applies to the love God has for us and that we are commanded to have for others, that is, to love others as God has loved us. It has little or nothing at all to do with the Love Bank. It is however, the basis of what Dr Harley has said is the basis of his commitment to marriage, the Biblical concept of "one flesh," wherein, as much care is shown for our spouse as we would show toward ourselves.

The Greek word from which we derive our "feeling" or "emotion" of love for a member of the opposite sex is the word "eros," and is the word from which we get the word erotic. It is a physical and emotional attraction.

There is also the word "phileo" which is called "brotherly love," and is the love for family, friends and those we have a kindred connection with.

The Love Bank has to do with eros rather than agape, though it is agape that so often keeps a marriage together during difficult times such as illness and separation due to circumstances.

I would also suggest that it might be possible that David's affair with Bathsheba did in fact lead to a long standing committed relationship blessed by God, though the beginnings of that relationship were clearly not condoned by Him and given God's commandment to avoid adultery, the basis for the relationship was clearly not in God's will though He was able to use the relationship for the good of all people.

All of that said, it is the idea of the Love Bank that is at stake here. The Love Bank is a way to quantify the abstract quality of our emotions as created by having our most important Emotional Needs met by someone else. By this definition, love is what we feel and is not some magical mysterious mindless connection that is the realm of romance novels and Hollywood scripts (though the writers' strike will no doubt slow that down for a while.)

It is instead a response to stimulus akin to Pavlov's dogs salivating at the sound of a bell though no food is forthcoming. It is not something we conjure up or that simply happens in a vacuum but is our brain's chemical reaction to the stimulus of having our Emotional Needs met by another person.

Given that definition of love, which is really the hinge pin of all that follows from Dr Harley, the rest of his work defines a process by which that emotion or feeling can be created and fostered in another person by doing those things that make them most happy, that is, meeting their top Emotional Needs.

What I think you are missing, BA1, is that the rest of the counseling profession has a dismal record when it comes to saving marriages devastated by adultery. Compared to most (and there's that qualifier you seem to be so fond of) other methods, Dr Harley's methods give the best chance to rebuild the love that has been lost within the context of the narrow definition of love that the Love Bank gives.

When an affair begins, there is a tension that exists within the the mind of the wayward person that causes them a great deal of conflict. This is caused by what they themselves have believed about love and what it means to them. When they fall in love with someone else, they must conclude that the love they once had for their spouse is dead, for whatever reason, and that this new "love" that they feel for someone else is the real thing. Because of our romantic notions about our feelings, this "real love'" must be more important or at least more desirable than our old dying or dead love for our spouse and so should be persued at all costs.

But the tension is still there because the old feelings for the spouse are seldom simply dead and gone and memories of those feelings still remain at the very least. So another option must be considered. The problem is that this option is simply that the wayward's emotions are not leading them to truth but only to a lie and they are in essence committing emotional suicide...

But the feelings seem so real...

In order to resolve this conflict, the wayward undergoes a thought process that allows them to pursue this new relationship without having to take responsibility for the pain they clearly know it will cause their spouse. This process involves a simple comparison between the two relationships to discover which is really best. The difficulty is that one is really a non-relationship, in other words a fantasy of their own creation based on the feeling of "love' they have discovered for this other person. This comparison includes a listing of things that are good and bad about both prospective partners, but nothing bad is really known about the affair partner while all the foibles and shortcomings of the spouse are only too clear.

Thus the justification process begins. Any event or Love Buster that cause unhappiness at any time during the marriage is listed in the "against" column for the spouse while only the best foot forward efforts of the affair partner are all listed under their "for" column. This is the rewriting of the history of the marriage that takes place.

So the advice of Dr Harley, and those who have read, understand and apply his methods and teachings, is to attempt to rebuild the balance in the wayward spouse's Love Bank by optimizing the meeting of Emotional Needs while avoiding doing anything that will withdraw from that account, or Love Busters. In an effort to win the spouse back, an all out assault is made on the time and feelings of the wayward spouse and to come against the feelings generated by the affair partner.

In order to do this, the betrayed spouse needs to understand what must happen to create a high balance in their account in the wayward spouse's Love Bank and direct their efforts to that end, even to the exclusion of their own Emotional Needs being met. It is impossible to do this when the wayward spouse is left to him/herself to ponder and fantasize further. Nothing good comes from giving space, only a further entrenching of the affair mindset.

At the same time, the betrayed spouse must make an effort to negotiate an end to the affair. while at first this usually leads to begging and sniveling, which has the exact opposite effect of what is desired, eventually, many will see that their efforts need to be directed inward as an effort to improve themselves, that is, to make themselves better at meeting the Emotional Needs of the wayward spouse. This must become apparent to the wayward spouse without the betrayed spouse pointing it out for it to have any effectiveness.

Your recommendation to give the wayward spouse space and see what happens, possibly resulting in the wayward spouse actually falling in love with the affair partner is flawed because the problem is that they have already done so, based on the definition of love as defined by the concept of the Love Bank and in regard to the Greek word used to describe that emotion, eros.

So unless specific things can turn this process around, the likely result will be that the affair partners will deepen their relationship and continue as if the romantic notion of "love" as "be all" and "end all" of relationships were true and nothing can be done to prevent it; love is something that happens to us rather than something we feel when certain things are done for us (meeting of Emotional Needs).

Exposure is a tool used to infringe on the affair because it causes others, who are friends of the marriage, to help point out to the wayward spouse that their actions are wrong in light of commitment and help the betrayed spouse to be given a chance to show that they can meet the Emotional Needs in a way that will reestablish the feelings they once had for the betrayed spouse. It causes the wayward spouse to reexamine their their actions and see that they are in fact ignoring and breaking their own moral code which is the root cause of so much of their inner conflict. Sometimes, not every time, but in many cases, this causes the wayward spouse to end the affair, or at least attempt to end it.

So, BA, based on the Basic Concepts of Dr Harley those who have applied his methods to their own lives and seen them work become pretty defensive when others come here and give advice that is not based on those methods and is in fact in direct opposition to those ideas. Though you might not find those folks here now, because they have long since moved on and in most cases gotten divorced, many have come here and not followed the advice given and seldom have they found themselves in a rebuilt trusting and caring relationship with the spouse who they caught cheating and now are either alone or have begun another relationship themselves, awaiting the day when the trust will once more be broken and their lives turned upside down.

As Bob pointed out, it isn't merely a matter of opinion, mine and yours, but is a matter of what Dr Harley has found to be effective and others have learned from reading and studying his writings and in some cases by having direct contact with Dr Harley himself. So if you wish to debate a specific concept, there are many here who will be willing and able to do that with you. And if you don't buy into the ideas Dr Harley has listed as his Basic Concepts, feel free to argue those points as you feel the need, but please don't use intuition and opinion as advice and call it superior to what has been shown to work.

Haven't you noticed that it isn't just one person you have a disagreement with but the sum total of just about all of the posters who have been here for any length of time? Or doesn't the fact that nearly all others disagree with you cause you to examine your own beliefs?

And just so you understand where I am coming from, I have seen Dr Harley's methods work in my own marriage. And though I was reluctant to even give advice for over six months after arriving here, I have also seen it work in the marriages of other people who have asked for my help and have also seen changes take place in the lives of many people who have come here looking for help in saving their marriages. Those that could not or would not follow the advice here have moved on, and in at least a couple of cases I know of personally their marriages are ended or are in the process of coming to an end, a bitter and anguished end at that.

And try to not consider this as a personal attack. I did not once use the word that begins with the letter 'i' that Justuss just can't let pass or any other terms that question your intelligence. I do not question your intelligence or commitment in any way. I also do not question your motives, as some others might. I do however question your need to give advice that is in direct contradiction to Dr Harley's stated Basic Concepts while on a site provided by him for the discussion of those concepts.

And lastly, on what do you base your assumption that your advise is the "best?" I keep waiting for you to say something that would give a clue as to where your opinions come from or to take exception with a specific concept of the doctor, but have not seen that, though I am usually too busy to search out every post by every poster in order to track down what you may or may not have said.

As Bob said, feel free to print this out and use it to line the bird cage or as he put it, for hamster bedding...

Mark

Last edited by Mark1952; 11/12/07 02:15 PM.
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Neak Offline OP
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Mark, I am in no way trying to rehash the David and Bathsheba marriage vs affairage debate here, but will just say that by Biblical definitions of marriage and adultery, and with Bathsheba toward the end of David's 8 wives, she was just one of many long-term adultery partners.

How he could live in sin like that and still be a man after God's own heart is worthy of a book-length answer. The short short response is that David had a teachable heart, and God was able to lead him into greater and greater light. The immoral customs of the times did not make polygamy ok in God's eyes, but may have blinded David to the point where God had plenty of other character flaws to sort out first, and David followed as far as he was led.

In these modern times, with the floods of divine light that we have been granted, there is far less need for "these times of ignorance God has winked at".


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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OK found out the truth and sorry ,but cannot stay on board, this is plain and simple "censorship" when someone is allowed to manipulate not only idividual post but also complete threads.

Dont have time for that stuff. Please look for me in another forum that is not so biased.

Please note the follwing proof:

"Yes, I removed that thread as it was serving no useful purpose and continued to go downhill.?"

"Incidently, complaints or questions about the forum or MB TOS can be directed to me, any mod or Admin rather than discussing or complaining on the forum."

Enough said.

Bye!

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???


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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