Betrayed? Yes. First time? No. Same woman all 3 times? Yes.
I was directed to this site by my husband who says he wants to save our marriage. I don't feel like there is any marriage left to save. You may tell me this is just karma coming round to me for my previous actions. You may be right. Probably would be. My story?
Married at age 15 to the 18 year old father of the baby I was carrying. Stayed with this man (who became on alcoholic) for 15 years. Bore him three beautiful daughters. He drank and was physically, verbally and mentally abusive to me. Verbally and mentally abusive to our daughters. I finally saw the light and divorced him when I realized that if I didn't my oldest girl would run away from home and I would loose her. Best thing I ever did for myself or for them. By then I was so brain-washed (I was a bad mother, a bad lover, ugly, fat, he take the children, I couldn't make it on my own, etc) that it was a rough road to pull it together and realize that I was a person with substance and worth. The only reason I mention the above is in reading some of the threads here, I see backgrounds asked for.

Became friends with a man at work. He was having a very rough time in his marriage. Long story short, we began an affair. His wife found out and divorced him, keeping their 2 children. 5 years later we married. 8 years ago he quit his job and became self-employed. This gave him 1/2 the day free each day. I have always worked full time. 6 years ago he started picking fights with me constantly. Turned out that he was seeing his ex while I worked. They would go fishing together, he would have her over to our house, they would go on long drives in the country, they would meet on Sunday mornings when he was picking up supplies for his business. He became very concerned when her grandfather became ill and her husband wouldn't take he to see him and wanted to drive her to another state (where sick grandpa was) and spend a few days there and drive her back. I said not to come back if he did, so he didn't. Didn't go that is. He said he was concerned for her safety (she and husband would both get drunk and fight) and wanted her to stay with us for a while. I said no. He left his email open one day and I looked at it. There were emails back and forth between them in which he said he loved her and missed her and needed her. Emails in which he was so sorry that he had missed her online and sure did need to talk with her, that things at home had not been good lately. I was mad and demanded that he stop seeing her. He said he would. 15 months ago I was looking for something on "his" computer and saw a file labeled with just a number. I opened it and it was a series of naked pictures taken with my camera at 1:00 in the afternoon. The woman in the pictures was his ex. They were taken at her house about two weeks before. My middle daughter's wedding was coming up in about 2 more weeks. I played dumb. Meanwhile my husband was being inordinately attentive and thoughtful and sweet and loving! Talk about almost loosing my mind. I made it through the wedding smiling. I then pulled the pictures up and left the most crude of them on his computer as his wallpaper. (None of the children were living with us at the time) His story was that he just took his new motorcycle out to the town she lived in to show it to her at her insistance and just happened to have taken his tank bag which just happened to have my camera in it. She just happened to be drunk and do this strip tease for him and then pose doing several raunchy things to herself on her and her husband's bed and then she passed out after putting her clothes back on (series of photos show her dressing) and nothing happened and he came home. He was so sorry, he cried, he'll never have anything to do with her again, yada, yada, yada. Promises, promises. One thing he kept saying that drove me almost insane was "What difference would it have made if you hadn't seen the pictures?" What difference indeed. The only difference would have been that I would still be in the dark about what was going on! Needless to say I was no longer trusting this man. From time to time I would do a search on his computer using digital media past week or past month added or changed. Happened to do this last Tuesday and lo and behold what pops right up but more pictures of the ex taken on 10/30 at 1:30 in the afternoon, same camera as before. Boob shots with clothes on and the final picture was her sprawled out on the folded down back seats of OUR van with her jeans pulled down and her panties still on and her shirt pulled up to her bra. I smashed a few things, loaded all of my clothes that I could get into my tiny car and left.
He thinks this marriage can be saved. I think this marriage is over. I am staying with a friend and her husband until I can figure out what my next step is.
I am emotionally empty. I am emotionally exhausted and the above facts are only a part of what was wrong with our marriage. Another problem was (is?) constant drinking on his part.
I have not even cried. I am very calm and accepting of the fact that I am going to start my life over again at the age of 50 with my clothes and little else. Is there something wrong with me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hello MorningDove,

Welcome to MB. To answer your last question first, I don't think anything is wrong with you. I suspect I know who your H is and have posted to him a few times today.

I would say if nothing changes with your H, you probably should leave the marriage. It really is your call no matter what. However, if there are still some feelings in your heart for him, and there are some things about him you like or want, then perhaps you should give him time to see if he finally "gets it".

We have been discussing with him what it might take for him to finally "get it", and from my point of view he needs to change his perspective and evaluate his boundaries and his code of ethics. He seems willing to do this.

My question, if he could change his perspective on marriage, his boundaries, what constitutes a good husband, to something more inline to your expectations of what a good husband would be, would you be interested???

The information here is very powerful. If learned and used it can truly changes marriages and make them something you both could enjoy. Will it happen? The strong possibility is there. Will your H "get it" and change his perspective on things? Perhaps. Time will tell.

Are you willing to give him the time? You and only you can decide that. It would seem to me that some time is reasonable at this point. Then you can leave with no regrets if he does his best and it isn't enough, or if he simply talks the talk but cannot walk it. You will know then that your decision is well founded.

The information here is well organized, it is focused and it requires the user to develop a plan to address the issues in the marriage. By plan I don't mean my diet plan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> "I plan to lose 20 lbs." is not a diet plan. A real plan for the marriage as for a diet requires goals, milestones, plans of action, focus on where effort is needed, and consequences. Your H, if he is the guy I think he is, will have to come up with these plans and then execute them. It is his call if he will put in the work.

I realize you are angry, hurt, and resentful, but these things can be overcome, just as your H can overcome his failings.

So do some reading of the articles on this site. I would suggest the 4 rules for a good marriage, the policies of "radical honesty" and "joint agreement", followed by the needs section. I think you will see many tools laying around for use if he will pick them up and use them.

God Bless,

JL

You can divorce him today, and no one here would fault you. But we usually advise that a person take their time, and see if the marriage can recover.

After reading your husband's post, I really think that he needs to stop drinking. He seems to be insisting that nothing physical happened in either of the "nekkid lady" sessions, and that is just too farfetched.

Will he agree to go to AA and then start telling a more truthful version?

So it's an AM (affair marriage).



My suggestions:
1. Send the pictures off to her H and inform him of the A.
2. Walk away from that M. No amount of patchwork is going to save a house that was built on sand.

So sorry you find yourself here MorningDove. Your side of the story brings a little clarity to the situation.

You don't have to work on the marriage. It is completely within your right to walk away and not look back if that is what you want to do.

However, should you have doubts about that course of action, then the Marriage Builders plan could allow you to see if Ras can truly change into a worthy husband. That process begins with the full truth from Ras, a letter of No Contact between Ras and his ExW and exposure of the A to the ExW's husband. That's just a start.

It is upsetting to me that things are very much different than what I was led to believe when I steered Ras here. Its not terribly surprising, I knew there was a reason things did not quite make sense to me. That does not change my belief that you can both be helped here, regardless of the course you choose. Not very long ago I was in a similar place in my life, and this site helped me alot. While I don't know you well, I'm truly sorry you find yourself in this situation.

Take care of yourself MD, you don't have to make any decisions right now. Take your time and think about what YOU want.

[color:"blue"]I'm not rushing out and consulting an attorney for a divorce. Right now I have no feelings for him at all other than to feel sorry that he honestly doesn't seem to "get it". I feel love for and miss and mourn the man that I married. This man is not the same man.[/color]



[color:"blue"]At this point in time, no. I have not felt like I could trust or believe in him in quite some time. I once loved him unconditionally and trusted him implicitly. Now I would just be waiting for it to happen again.[/color]


[color:"blue"]Again, I'm not going anywhere except for away from his house.[/color]


[color:"blue"]I would hope that he would do this for himself, for his own sake, for his own betterment.[/color]


[color:"blue"]Actually the predominant feeling I have is sadness. I can't even say that I miss the person he once was because I have missed him for so long it's nothing new. [/color]

[color:"blue"]That is a question that only he can answer. [/color]

[color:"blue"]Thank you Tyk. That makes me feel a little more sane.[/color]


[color:"blue"]I cannot in my wildest imagination see any of the above happening![/color]



[color:"blue"]I intend to continue to read and grow here. For myself.[/color]


[color:"blue"]I'm truly sorry to hear that you have gone through this too Tyk, however I am glad that you were able to understand and overcome it.[/color]


[color:"blue"]I think that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thank you.[/color]



[color:"blue"]That is exactly what I am doing. [/color]

MorningDove,

Have you read any of the articles on this site?? I would like to encourage you to do so. I think they will offer you tools to use in this relationship or perhaps in another. Further, if your H decides to really make this work, you will see where he is coming from. It will help you evaluate his actions.

I understand your fatique with regards to this stuff. Recharge your batteries and see where both you and your H end up.

Please feel free to ask as many questions as you like about the information here or about your situations.

God Bless,

JL

I'm glad you are still reading and posting. There is a lot here that is very helpful no matter how the marriage goes.

I see your husband hasn't posted since you told your side. Maybe he is real busy, but it makes me think that he knows his version isn't sitting well with the folks here.

It sounds to me like your husband needs to be working more. He seems to have too much time on his hands - to get involved with his ex and drink. So my second suggestion (after AA) would be for him to get a second job.

Are all of the children out of the home and on their own now?

[color:"blue"] Yes, all of our children are grown and living their own lives with either spouses or significant others. [/color]

Well, it's good that the kids are on their own. That takes some of the pressure off.

Hope you will continue thinking things over very carefully. Can your husband move out of the home, since he is the one that strayed? That is what we usually suggest.

Then he will need to figure out that he needs to stop drinking, he needs to have more structured time so that he isn't tempted to chat on the computer or go "rescue" his ex, and he will have to have no contact with her forever.

And those things are just the starting point. Then he would have to be willing to work hard on recovering the marriage. I don't know, he said in his post that he is lazy.........

[color:"blue"]It is "his" home. I moved out of mine and into his when we married. Every time there has ever been a fight, this fact was thrown in my face. "his home" Mine is now a rent house, but occupied. Frankly I would rather not stay there. It's easier on me to be elsewhere. [/color]



[color:"blue"]I've begged for years on the drinking and sometimes he slows down a bit, but has always said "quitting" is out of the question. [/color]



[color:"blue"]The first time this all happened, I left. Part of me agreeing to go back to him was that he help around the house since he was the one with the free time. Dishes and laundry become his responsibility. He has resented me for that ever since. I can't think of a single time that he did anything as far as housework (even carrying out the trash) except for those 2 things. When I would come in from work in the evening the dishes would have just then been done. I've been trying for 5 years to get him to get rid of a non-working refrigerator that sits in the dining room. It's still there![/color]



[color:"blue"]He's has promised me this before. I don't believe it anymore.
I have been lied to so often and for so long that I simply assume that no matter what he says, he is lying. No matter what it's about. [/color]

So, where are you at? IF certain things were to happen, even things you can't imagine Ras being willing to do, are you interested in trying to rebuild the marriage?

Yours is an interesting situation from a MB standpoint, in that you were the OP in the breakup of his first M, and are now the BS. It is my understanding that it is very unusual for relationships that begin in an A to last as long as your marriage has. I ask that you forgive me in advance for what I am about to say, and hope that you understand I am not trying to be critical or judgmental, its just that certain things about your M can't be ignored or glossed over.

Have you considered the impact that the beginning of your relationship has had on the relationship as a whole? What, if anything, have you done about the fact that at one point in your life you were the other woman and contributed to the breakup of another M? At one point in time, Ras' XW felt betrayed and violated much like you do now. Have you ever sought her forgiveness for the role you played in the demise of her marriage?

I know that Ras stated that the marriage was bad and that it would have ended regardless, but that does not excuse the A he had with you, for either of you. An A is not justifiable, not really. An A is not just a violation of the BS, it is a violation of the stated promises made by the WS. Much attention is payed to the wrongs done to the BS here, but it cannot be ignored that the WS does damage to themselves and suffers for it and needs to heal from it and become a better person through understanding what they did and why they did it and take steps to repair whatever it was within themselves that allowed them to become wayward in the first place.

It is apparent that Ras has not ever done this work, perhaps never knew he needed to, perhaps never knew how. I don't know the answer or if you think there's anything to this line of thinking, what do you think?

You married a WS, and he continued to be a WS. You were the OW, what have you done to stop being the OW?

As you can see, MB offers a way to a healthy marriage. It isn't an easy path, and I imagine it looks particularly daunting to you and Rasputin. Have you talked about any of this with him? Have you asked him if he's willing to do the Marriage Builders plan? If he is, are you interested? The MB plan is not ONLY about him changing to suit you, you realize that yes? It will also require you to listen to him, and work on your own issues (we all have them) in order to build the marriage into a partnership that makes BOTH of you happy. It seems very hard, but really it is the way a marriage SHOULD be, its just that few of us are taught it, and it seems to be that we never seek the knowledge until we are forced to recognize that the way we were taught, and the things we did believe are woefully inadequate and oftentimes wrong. This is usually because something terrible has happened and we are forced to find the answers.

In the midst of the ashes is however perhaps the chance to learn, grow, change, and improve. The choices are to do that at all, and if you choose to do that together, or separately.

I really hope you don't take what I said the wrong way MD, I question whether I should even post this because I suspect that I'm just sticking my foot in my mouth.

My thought process is this: YOUR BOTH HERE posting. Obviously you both value your relationship and want to do what is right. That said, you can't do it alone. It seems to ME you both have a lot to atone for. PERSONALLY, I feel your relationship needs the healing power of Christ. Do you worship together? Have you thought about getting Christian counseling? Christian counseling turned my wife and I's live around 180 degrees. OUr marriage was a MESS.. and everyone told us it could not be saved. Well, no man or woman is beyond redemption. God is the great redeemer of the unredeemable. Both you and your husband are his children. He is obviously sending you a message.

"When will you ever humble yourselves before me?"
-Exodus

Honestly I don't think that I am.


I'm not really sure how to answer this. If you mean that maybe that is why he has no respect for me, then yes, I have indeed considered that and considered that to perhaps be the cause.


The only thing I can say for myself here is that I made sure that his children had a loving home to come to. That I encouraged him to spend as much time as possible with his children and to be there for them. I was understanding when he helped his XW with monies above and beyond his child support, even gave her the house they had lived in. Not enough to atone I know, but all I knew to do.


No, I never did. Nor do I expect her to seek mine.


You are correct. Not a thing I have ever been proud of, believe me. I believe that this is why I let him get away with his behaviour for so long. Why I let him disrespect me and abuse me mentally for so long.



I'm afraid I don't understand you here.


We have not really discussed this. He directed me here and says he has printed out the Emotional Needs Questionair for us both to take. I still don't feel like he has told me the truth about things. I have not heard him say that he would stop drinking.


I realize this. I am not a perfect person and don't pretend to be. He says I have a problem with communication. This is true. There are extinuating circumstances for this and he has caused them. This only being one of the problems. There were many years that I felt like I could tell him anything and everything, and did. He was the best friend I ever had. The closest friend I ever had. I shared my hopes and dreams, my triumphs and defeats.


The reason I am here is because I want to learn, grow, change and improve. Myself.


Having been through this yourself and having worked together with your wife to save your marriage, you may pull your foot out now and know that I have tryed to take your post and your questions as I think you have meant them.

Yes I have been busy, not too busy to come back here and read these posts and articles though.


Yes, this is the truth of the matter. What I said was not.
I do have a lot of free time on my hands, not as much as MD thinks though. I have asked her to ride with me when I work on many occasions. I wish she would/could more often, her company would lighten the load significantly. Most days I leave the house after 8:00 and do not finish up my work untill 2-3 in the afternoon. Finish up as in get home. I still have things to after that as well. Orders, counting $, trips to pick up product. On average I would say that I put in about 7 hours a day by the time I have returned home and prepared for the next day so it's not as if i'm sitting around after 2:00 in the afternoon.

I see everyone wants to talk about drinking. Yes, I drink. I drink virtually every evening as well. I very seldom have a drink before 5:00, more like 6:00 most nights. However I do not feel that 3 drinks in 3 hours makes a person an irrational drunk. . I know I drink too much and have cut back considerably from a year ago. I have no problem setting it aside for a day or two if needed or forever if that should come to pass as well but I do enjoy it and do not put it ahead of all else in my life by any means.. Recent examples of this would be taking her to learn to ride a motorcycle after work. I certainly couldn't have a few drinks and do that. We did this many evenings last summer. Also I was recently ill with bronchitis and had no problem leaving off the booze while I took the prescribed antibiotics. Since she also drinks and we often drink together I had no idea that this was as important to her as she has expressed in this thread. Again, I see that our communication and understanding of each other lacks a lot. I hope that we have the chance to improve it. I would like for both of us to lay the cigarettes down for good as well.
Yes, she did ask me to help around the house, laundry and dishes and more that I haven't done as well as I could have. Yes, when she comes home most nights the dishes are just done and the van has just been reloaded and moved so she has drive space. I'm not saying that I work all day long, I don't. I do feel like she thinks I work a lot less than I do though.
I said in my thread that I am lazy. Maybe that's not quite true, I may just be complacent and a little bit tired after driving 60-100 miles and toting god knows how many cases of pop. Sure, I could do more. When she comes home from work, she wants to relax, so do I.
Above all, I Am happy with our life as it was. We have had many good times, many wonderful conversations and many tender moments as well as some really bad times and many evenings holding each other and crying. She recently told me she had been hiding in the back yard to cry. Why on earth if there was something so bad as to bring tears to your eyes did you not tell me? I have always been here for you, MD, regardless of what you think now I have. I have many times asked yo to communicate with me better. More than "nothing" or "I'm fine". How can I know if you go hide and don't talk? I am your partner as you are mine. I talk to you when things trouble me. However very few things about you troubel me. Many people have told us for all of the years that we have been together that we are a great couple and a great team. It is true, we are.
I do try, though. I do get the trash out more often than she aludes here, I also carry the recyclable box (and remind her that is the day for that so she can get her newspapers out as well)I would carry them for her if she wanted, always ask her if she would like for me to. As well as caring for houseplants and yard. I have also forgotten on many occasions. Didn't do all that well on the yard and garden this year, I have a little more business and it was bloody hot this summer here. I could still do more certainly. I am not laying about drinking all day as it appeared to me that she made it sound, perhaps I am wrong, that is just my perception of what she said. I am a responsible business owner trying to be successful and not doing so well. She has always done my books for which I am eternally grateful, numbers and books are not my forte' and they are hers.
I can certainly see why this woman wouldn't believe a word I said, she has no reason too at all. Twice before she has and I have broken promises to her both times. For that I will feel sorrow and pain eternally. Perhaps she is right, perhaps I am not worth having as partner, perhaps this marriage can not be saved. I hope I am wrong on all of these counts.

I also want to address the his/hers home thing. I have always felt like this was MD's home. From the day she moved in. Actually from many days before she did. We did a pretty complete remodel on the 2 main rooms of this house together. Many hot nasty afternoons in an un air conditioned house working like dogs on silly stuff. We have taken 2 loans together on his house. It IS her home, I am sorry that I have said "my house" since we have been married. It was said in anger and cannot be taken back but I do truly think of this as OUR home and always have. She previously expressed insecurity about this fact and I have tried since then (not a week ago, the time before that you brought it up maybe a year ago or more) to express this. I have truly tried to not say "mine" to actively say "ours". I am sorry if I did not do it enough. Communication and perception again. If you people reading this don't think it's "ours" drop by and see how much MD has made this her home. From decoration to flower beds to just the feel of the place. Yes, it is yours, MD, no one is going to take it from you, not me, not my kids, it is YOUR home and always will be.

Yes, it may sound unbelievable that there was no sexual intercourse between my XW and myself. I know that. However I fail to see any reason to lie now. No reason to lie to you people and no reason to lie to MD either, I have been caught as an untrustworthy and unfaithful husband once again and have no qualms in admitting it, it is the truth I will live with the rest of my life.
I also fail to see any reason to admit to something that didn't happen just because no one will believe me. That would not be healthy or proper for any of us.
Those are my principles also. None of you have to believe me, I know what happened and I have told MD what happened, simple as that.

This house WAS NOT built on sand. It was built on the love of 2 people, 2 different people that fell in love a long time ago. 2 people that have changed, hurt and loved together for 20 years. I want to change again, to change in a way that will make me happier and in a way that will make MD see that I can be what she thought I was all those years ago. I think that 20 years is some deep sand if sand it is.

I will continue to read articles here. I will continue to follow these threads and post and I will continue to search myself for improvement.
Above all I will continue to believe in MD and I as a couple, a married, happy, healthy couple very much in love as we once were. I hope that I have the opportunity to prove to her that this is what I truly want for us.


edit to fix a little grammar and spelling

"Yes, it may sound unbelievable that there was no sexual intercourse between my XW and myself. I know that. However I fail to see any reason to lie now. No reason to lie to you people and no reason to lie to MD either, I have been caught as an untrustworthy and unfaithful husband once again and have no qualms in admitting it, it is the truth I will live with the rest of my life.
I also fail to see any reason to admit to something that didn't happen just because no one will believe me."

Umm, Rasputin, you DO have a reason to lie. You got caught and want to save your marriage. You lied to your wife before (in fact, a couple of times) so you are NOT trustworthy.

Since drinking is so unimportant in all of this, I suggest you QUIT. The alcohol has apparently addled your brain to the point that you think your story is believable.

I typed a huge long post and the form was no longer valid and I couldn't get it back! I shall try again later!

grrrrrrrrr