How about picking ONE thing that you are dissatisfied with, and POJA'ing that.

You may become overwhelmed with a list, and not be able to focus on one issue at a time.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to take some time to think about what issue I really want to work on right now. We just hit a really big spiral and I want to let the dust settle a bit. I think HOW we spend our time together is a big one. I want more one on one time, NOT spent in front of the TV.

As I renter, I have found it hard NOT to sacrifice. I am so used to it. I don't like the martyr gig, though.

Believer...that is hilarious!!!!

SL, you are cracking me up too because...



is the story of my life (I have ADD so it is pretty funny that you saw me walking right into a situation where I would "lose focus").

Excellent, bull's-eye examples.

Please save these for future reference and post them anytime someone seems confused about what Buyer/Renter/Freeloader actually mean.

If you don't, I will.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Good Thread Froz!

So how is it done?

My ex and I always did things HE wanted to do. And then he complained that I never initiated anything. So I started inviting him to do some other kinds of things, and one after another, he shot them down. So I just kept quiet.

Finally, after 10 years of it, I announced that I was NOT going to go to one more activity that he wanted to do until he did something with me. Shortly after, he found the OW.

So exactly how do you become a buyer?

Looks by this definition that I have to confess to being a renter, too. I was in it for the long haul but didn't know, and still don't know, the communication skills to be a buyer - and to coax my spouse into being a buyer.

In your example above, froz, about negotiating an agreement that BOTH of us would enjoy....HOW is this done with an unresponsive spouse?

I can negotiate with myself all day long, if my spouse doesn't care to, what do I do?

I always felt I HAD to sacrifice because he was unwilling to budge. I still did what I wanted to do, but lost his companionship at the same time.

This is where the Independent Behavior was created.

Fox

Renters coming out of the WOODWORK!!!! YAY!!!

Will do, Mulan! My example isn't copyrighted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Believer,



You become a Buyer...by simply acting like one!

Dr. Harley says:

"It is easier to change your attitudes and beliefs when your behavior is consistent with them. Right now, you are probably acting like a Freeloader or Renter. If I were to try to convince both of you to become exclusively and permanetly committed, like a Buyer, your Freeloading or Renting habits would quickly destroy the reasonableness of that commitment."

And I agree with him. It IS easier to change your actions than it is to change your thinking. If you change the actions...the thinking follows suit.

And it's a habit. And just as is the case with ANY habit, at first it feels uncomfortable but with consistent effort it becomes more comfortable. Pretty soon, a Buyer's tactics become your NEW habit!

So, Believer, in the example that you provided, the way a Buyer would have responded would have been to NOT KEEP QUIET. A Buyer would have continued to express their dissatisfaction - not with a verbal assault or a DJ (because Buyer's always make negotiations safe), but by gaining the enthusiasm of their spouse by continuing to look for activities that both would enjoy.



See that Renter dynamic in action? It says to a Freeloader, "I sacrificed for you...now it's your turn."

A Freeloader isn't willing to sacrifice.

So the Renter actually enables the Freeloader to keep Freeloading on a couple of levels:

1.) Because they are willing to sacrifice, it enables the Freeloader to continue "taking", using IB to accomplish the job.

2.) When the Renter gets tired of sacrificing and voices their dissatisfaction, the Freeloader feels TRICKED. The Renter is changing the rules! They feel as though their Renter is trying to get THEM to become a Renter! (and they usually are because sacrifice is currency to a Renter. They believe it is loving to sacrifice and the Renter wants their Freeloader to be "fair" and take their turn at sacrificing".)

Often, if continually pushed to sacrifice, a Freeloader WILL leave the marriage because they just aren't willing to sacrifice.

So if the Renter decides to adopt a Buyer's strategy, one in which neither spouse is expected to sacrifice, quite possibly they can lead their Freeloader down the road to Buyer.

Wild (I'm not gonna call you WH),



EXACTLY!

Being in it for the long haul is not the definition of Buyer. Having behaviors that create the opportunity for long-term mutual satisfaction is what makes or breaks a Buyer.



As long as the unresponsive spouse gets to win, why WOULDN'T they be willing to negotiate? Who wouldn't want to be satisfied in such a way that left their spouse also satisfied?



I'd be willing to bet the the reason he was unwilling to budge is because he suspected (and probably accurately if you had a Renter's Agreement) that what you were trying to do was get him to sacrifice.

I just wanted to point this out. AFTER you have become a buyer and really invested the time in setting the example, if the freeloader does not convert, you end the relationship. YOU MUST FIRST BECOME A BUYER!!!

Good point, SL.

What I see more often, though, is a Renter wanting to terminate the relationship because their Freeloader won't sacrifice.

And it's darn hard to convince a Renter that they actually played a part in it. They feel as though they went above and beyond the call of duty with all their sacrificing and can't possibly see how they played a role in the demise of the marriage.

Oh, I have done that martyr dance. I've created a pattern that I do not care to continue in my M. I was much like Believer posted with her example. I had bouts of freeloading mixed in with being a renter. Martydom makes you dead, and I enjoy life too much for that.

So, with that, it's time to become a buyer. Freeloadin' is not my style.

In order to have a buyer in your R, and maintain it forever, you must BE a buyer. With that being said, in my M now, I have to become the buyer FIRST. I'm okay with that. I want to be a buyer. I think the intimacy ALONE is worth it; that connection that you cannot get as a renter or freeloader.

Froz I just love the way you have expressed these concepts.

Victimhood / self-righteousness / resentment / martyrdom

these are the words that describe the Renter / the controller / the enabler

I think that as BS, Renters can do a pretty good Plan A. Plan B is a struggle - and Recovery almost impossible unless there is a move from Renter to Buyer. The worst is recovery because a Renter feels that the WS is in a huge debt, and expects to start taking in dividends.

Froz

This all sounds very familiar. I guess I must be a renter too. I would have bet the house that I was a buyer. But the dynamics you describe are undeniable.


(I just purchased the book so I must have been aware of it on some subconscious level)

I'm in. My name is MicheleG and I'm a RENTER!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> (arg)

I'm SO EXCITED!!!!

I'm excited to see all of these Renters come forth! YAY Michele!

I am excited because I have been watching all of these Renters hurting - and being stuck. And not seeing how they played a role in that stuckness. I want them to not hurt. I want them to have actions that line up with their goals because I want them to have the successful marriages they want.

I didn't know how to get over the hurdle of convincing them they were Renters, though. That's why I initially titled the thread "How To Get Your Spouse To Become A Buyer" - my own little Renter hook (Did YOU get it, BR?).



Uh huh, SL. And the thing is...using Renter skills does NOT mean that you are committing to the relationship permanently. It only means that you could have the OPTION if you wanted it.

Also, using POJA is a method for resolving conflict that teaches you not to sacrifice, nor ask the other person to do so. That is something that could benefit ALL of your interactions and relationships.

There is no relationship that couldn't benefit from win/win and having less resentment.



AMEN TO THAT!!! It seems to me that Plan A actually REQUIRES Renter skills!



You are SO RIGHT! I noticed that, too...in MYSELF!

The way that went down with me was that initially in Recovery, I sacrificed and wanted Patriot to sacrifice too.

He wouldn't.

I didn't know any other way to resolve the conflict, so I felt forced to continue sacrificing.

After some time, I got reeeeaaaallly resentful. And you know what I turned into??? A FREELOADER!

I have witnessed that dynamic with other Renters, too...they grow entitled - making SD's, DJ's and using AO's, which only serves to assist their Freeloader spouse in feeling even more entitled to Freeload.

After a bit of my Freeloading (which didn't make me happy, btw, but it was the only method I saw to try to ease some of my resentment), I stopped fearing the conflict.

And you know what? You are so right with this, BR...



The Controller. I'll bet Renters don't see how they are manipulating and controlling.

They sacrifice because they are afraid that if they DON'T, the Freeloader will leave.

And THAT is the difference between vascillating between using Giver and Taker (trying to use manipulation to do "good", then being angry and doing harm when it doesn't work) and...

BALANCING your Giver and Taker - using both simultaneously.

Remember that both Giver and Taker are both GOOD AND BAD.

Your Giver says:

Do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy.

Your Taker says:

Do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.

When these two parts of ourselves are operating independently, the result is hurt yourself/give to your spouse or hurt your spouse/take for yourself what you feel you deserve for giving.

When used SIMULTANEOUSLY, you can both give to your spouse while protecting yourself and protect your spouse while getting what you want/need.

Froz, you have a really good grasp of all of this STUFF.

This really is a great thread.

I wish I could express my breakthrough, and be convincing, but I don't have the words. It's the knowledge that I can change and affect change that has my head buzzing.

you aren't saying anything that we moldy oldies haven't said 10283091283091283210 times...

its just so exciting that you have put such a fresh perspective on it. This is so brilliant.

my experience is that deep down inside...freeloaders resent renters.

I think thats where the trouble starts. Unfortunately though...the renter is so busy pointing out that the freeloader is selfish....

There is a huge pay off for a renter paired with a freeloader....

Renters have low self esteem...and keep freeloaders around to feel better about themselves.

Not to say that renting is all bad - renting skills have their place. But a renter lifestyle is no better...maybe even worse than a freeloader.

QUOTE: I was in it for the long haul but didn't know, and still don't know, the communication skills to be a buyer - and to coax my spouse into being a buyer.

RESPONSE: EXACTLY!

Being in it for the long haul is not the definition of Buyer. Having behaviors that create the opportunity for long-term mutual satisfaction is what makes or breaks a Buyer.

Froz, could you explain this a bit more? Is being in it for the long haul more renter attitude because renter is willing to sacrifice, where as creating opportunity for long-term satisfaction is BUYER willing to negoiate but not sacrifice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The terms Buyer, Renter and Freeloader are not at all indicative of whether or not someone wants to stay married a short time or permanently.

The terms Buyer, Renter and Freeloader are like a PREDICTION that determines whether someone will stay married a short time or permanently because of the methods they use.

They are based on someone's underlying beliefs about how to manage conflict in a relationship.

A Renter can WANT their marriage to be permanent and satisfying all day long, but if their actions are not conducive to that goal, it's never gonna happen.

I hope I'm explaining that correctly.

If it isn't clear, please let me know and I'll be glad to frame it another way.

This is too important to NOT fully understand, IMO.

So, froz, what do you recommend in your example above regarding the game or shopping? What does a BUYER choose to do when their spouse doesn't care to negotiate?

You asked earlier why a spouse wouldn't WANT to do what made BOTH of you happy. That is the golden question. A question I can't really answer - because I would have LOVED for both of us to be happy.

I didn't want to TAKE his happiness, but wanted to ADD my own.

I could suggest solutions and never hit on the EXACT one that would work for him....where does his responsibility come in and mine end?

When is my willingness to give ENOUGH but not TOO MUCH?

I don't believe I get a "pay off" from blaming H. I'm trying to recognize where HIS responsbility ends and mine begins....and when NOT to take care of his responsibility when he doesn't do his part.

KWIM?

Fox