Graplin,



Sure.

You said...



Speaking from personal experience, I would agree with you that there wasn't necessarily a CONSCIOUS choice made at the time I was sacrificing in hopes that Patriot would later sacrifice for me, but there has to be the expectation...otherwise, why would I be fine and feeling so "giving" while sacrificing and then later ANGRY that he wouldn't sacrifice?

Sure, I desired to do that right thing and wanted to be giving and "good". If that was REALLY my motivation...why in the world would I be angry about it later?

This is a common theme among Renters. And it is what I am referring to when I said that Renters use sacrifice as currency. I "give" to you and then...YOU OWE ME.

I remember something that Dr. Harley discussed at MB Weekend. Hang on and I'll see if I can find my notes.

Okay...

The First Goal of Marriage: Create a Lifestyle that is fulfilling for both of you.

How to achieve the First Goal of Marriage: A mutually fulfilling lifestyle can be achieved only if a couple knows how to negotiate effectively.

What prevents us from negotiationg effectively?

OUR INSTINCTS

These instincts are -

1.) The Giver, which wants us to give unconditionally. This instinct tells us to create a lifestyle that only benefits our spouse.

2.) The Taker, which wants us to take unconditionally. This instinct tells us to create a lifestyle that only benefits us.

3.) Our States of Mind in Marriage. There are three of them - The State of Intimacy, the State of Conflict and the State of Withdrawal.

These States of Mind prevent us from trying to find solutions that give and take SIMULTANEOUSLY - that creates a lifestyle that benefits both of us.

Here's the kicker -

Because our instincts are opposed to marital negotiation, every couple needs a rule to help override those instincts so they can negotiate and create a mutually enjoyable lifestyle. Enter POJA.

POJA helps create fair negotiation in marriage when instincts encourage spouses to be unfair.

POJA forces couples to be thoughtful when they don't feel like it.

The feelings and interests of the Giver and Taker in both husband and wife should be balanced.

What you give should make your spouse happy, but it should also make you happy.

What you take should make you happy, but it should also make your spouse happy.

Regarding fear motivating Renters to sacrifice, you said...



I agree with you. I DO think it is partially based on the fear that their spouse will leave the marriage.

But isn't that also control as well, along with emotional dishonesty? To think that we can change our spouse's choice to remain in the marriage by being dishonest with them about what we are truly okay/not okay with?

TA,



That was the impression I got from your posts.

Here:



The impression I got of your interpretation of this situation was that the Freeloader spouse didn't care about whether their child was looked after sensibly.

Does it not seem feasible to say that one spouse's method of sensible care may differ from the other's?

To assume that one spouse is downright neglectful or uncaring towards their child because their view of how they wish to accomplish it may differ from yours is highly disrespectful.

and here...



Again, the DJ...the very invalidating assumption that the black car spouse only wants the black car to sabotage their spouse.

If those DJ's were indeed true, wouldn't that paint one spouse as 'the problem'???



Yes. That is correct.



I do agree with you. Any generalizations I make are in reference to the prevalent position.



I agree.

I mentioned before that you seem to be a very literal person. I like that about you. It makes it easier for me to communicate with you. I'm still keeping a constant watch on my crown, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MF,



Thank you. Actually, I was HOPING that you would!!!



I have thousands more, ready and waiting for you and your next POJA! Seriously, the brainstorming part of POJA is my specialty. I'm secretly (or not so much) waiting for someone to master the preceding steps of POJA and hoping that they post looking for brainstorming ideas. Creative problem solving is my forte and I think I find that portion of POJA fun, entertaining and a bit of a thrill/challenge - like a word puzzle.



Well, I suspect that a spouse who doesn't like POJA is probably a spouse who has been asked to sacrifice. Who wouldn't like POJA if they get to win? Not to mention, that the fruit includes their spouse winning, which in turn results in a greater enthusiasm in their spouse to meet their needs.

As far as how you can encourage your spouse to put their best effort into POJA...

The BEST way you can encourage your spouse is actually to execute POJA correctly.

The WORST way to encourage your spouse is to execute POJA poorly or improperly.

One sure sign that you are not using POJA properly would be if either party argues about what the other spouse wants or tells them in either words or actions that they are being unreasonable. Some examples of that would be:

"You only want that because..."
"You are only saying you don't want this because..."
"I can't believe you would even suggest..."
"You're being selfish."
"You're only thinking of yourself."

That isn't an all-encompassing list, just a few examples of some invalidating statements. If anyone has any others, I think it would be great to post more. Sometimes we often don't recognize just how invalidating some of our statements are.

Basically, the POJA process becomes halted because the very first step is not being followed, which is to make negotiations pleasant and safe. The second step in POJA is to identify the conflict from both of your perspectives and to respect those perspectives.

Make negotiations PLEASANT!!!!

Often one or both spouses develop a strong dislike for POJA because the process isn't pleasant.

It can actually be FUN!!!

If you want to respect the perspective of your spouse, try simple validation. Try asking your spouse about their position - what is it about their position that they love? Which parts of it are important to them? Which parts aren't as important?

- Keep POJA in mind as you try to understand each other's perspectives.

- Focus your effort on understand what would be required for mutually enthusiastic agreement.

- Do not interrupt or try to "straighten out" each other.

Negotiation is giving and taking simultaneously.

I referred to the Three States of Mind in Marriage previously. Keep in mind that once a couple is in the State of Withdrawal, they must pass through the State of Conflict before they return to the State of Intimacy.

Often, it's the fear or dread of the State of Conflict that keeps couples from moving towards Intimacy because in the past, the State of Conflict has been riddled with LB's. It doesn't have to be if they use POJA.

SL,



Okay, if you are attempting to consider his interests by offering to POJA these things with him and he is totally unresponsive, what do you do then?

Are you giving up what you would like or want to do? Are these things you are talking about things you want from him or would like to do with him or are they separate from him?

Without a specific example, the best I've got is to tell you that by pulling the rope by yourself, you are likely enabling him not to pick up his end.

So...drop the rope.

And pull when he pulls.

BR,

I found the book you mentioned Getting to YES - Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In at the library.

Unfortunately, the library is closed today for the holiday (which I discovered AFTER driving all the way there).

It's open tomorrow, though. I'm looking forward to reading it. Thanks for the recommendation.

Brilliant. Absolutely Brilliant thread!

Is there room for one more on the renter bus?

The dynamic described here is.... er..... me.

I dont know how to stop it but am bloody desperate to do so.

My H and I are stuck in the recovery process. I actually think we are going backward. A typical interaction would have me working my butt off to find a solution to our issues, coming up with a plan, sitting down and talking it over to my FWH - him agreeing to it and then........

wait for it............

nothing.

Nothing gets done. All the things H agrees to - he doesnt do one of them.

So then what, you ask? I am resentful and in victim mode, but of course - I SAY nothing about this - sometimes for weeks, months. And then I have a melt down, in which case my beloved H promises me the world, again.

Im so sick of it.

Is this bus air conditioned?

LOL - I can't believe you went to the library!

I may be calling you the next time I am butting heads with my team members over timelines - care offer a consult? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Froz,

I've dropped the rope. Believe it or not, I was enabling our sordid condition to continue. I learned that over the course of the last week.

I'm not disregarding the rope. I have an eye on it. I've made it clear that *I* want a win win, NO sacrifice for either of us.

In my case, in order to even begin exercising POJA, I have to have a partner committed to the relationship. That is not the case. I've stated that this is not satisfactory for me, and that I would love to hear him out, and work toward a solution together.

I've told him, however, that I am not interested in this current state of our marriage. We currently don't have a marriage. At least, not in any terms that I would consider marriage. I have a roommate.

I lived with a woman last year, when she needed a place to go. She was a better roommate, and I'm not being judgmental.

She was messy and a clutter bug, and flew by the seat of her pants, but she was caring and engaging and comforted me when I was very down. She was a true friend, hitting me with the 2x4s very similar to the style that you guys use. In return, I was giving and caring and administered the 2x4s and did not enable.

It was a good model for love and friendship. She's still my best friend, and we LIVED TOGETHER. It wasn't all fun and games, and we did grate on each others nerves, but we were very open and honest about it.

I have been struggling, trying to accomplish the same with PWC, to be met with a brick wall.

I'm not giving up what I would like or want to do. What I want to do can be done another day and can involve him, if he likes. I am genuinely interested in his ideas, he has some good ones, when he tells me. My main WANT is to just spend time together. WE can't agree on that. I want to, he doesn't.

I may be wandering off course by the use of the word sacrifice. IMO, doing the right thing doesn't necessarily translate into "I made a sacrifice." For ex., if "I do the right thing" and treat a parent with respect and kindness and I get rudeness and cruelty in response - my anger at their action would not be based on the idea that I had made a sacrifice.

A marital example would be hubby wanting to go fishing for the day (or FITB with any hobby, interest, etc.) with his best buddy. Wife thinks that's great, it will do him good to relax and unwind, packs his lunch and cold drinks, pats him on the butt when he goes out the door and greets him with pleasure when he returns. She isn't operating from a sense of sacrifice. Later on that month, wife wants to go visit grandparents for the day. Hubby's response is less than thrilled. No alternatives offered make the idea more palatable to him. She becomes good friends with anger and resentment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> - but is it from a sense of sacrifice?


I'm not sure that my fear was that my spouse would leave the marriage, but rather my fear was that by continued advocating for consideration of my needs/desires *I* would be destroying the marriage and disobeying God. I did not want to disobey God. My goal was not to control my spouse's choices, but to control myself and what I might be foisting upon the relationship. I wasn't emotionally dishonest, however I did reach a point where it seemed futile to pursue it further. How much of our expectations of having our needs met maritally is an aspect of our culture & times? How does one weigh the temporal with the eternal? These are the places I find myself wandering into.

I'm wading through this trying to glean some understanding about myself. I've been reading the enabler thread as well as this one. My difficulty is/has been derived from my Biblical understanding ( or possible MISunderstanding). Is it being emotionally honest about what I need or am I tearing down my house with my own hands and being contentious? Am I falsely sacrificing or am I obeying God? Am I negotiating or am I being self-centered?

I look at the chapter in Corinthians about love is ____ and I don't see anything that encourages me to bring my taker into marriage. I just haven't been able to reconcile the two yet and wonder if others have encountered similar difficulties. Let me know if I'm getting too far off your threadpath - I don't want to send it off into the swamp. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Graplin,

Thanks for bringing up the same questions I've been asking myself but trying to refrain from TJing Froz's eye-opening thread. And I appreciate your reading and mentioning the Enabling thread.

The term 'controlling' has been lurking in that thread's title just waiting to pounce on me. And last night, it did.....after I inadvertantly 'foisted' concern for my DH's well-being. So today, I changed that thread's sub-title and asked the question about whether a spouse can convince the other of a productive concept without being controlling. Also, where does the controller fit within the freeloading/renting/buying characteristics?

If they can be approached on this thread without a major TJ, I'd appreciate it. If not, please pop on over (MF style!) to the Enabling thread which is now focused on the 'controller' part of the title.

So glad you're hosting this thread, Froz. What I've read so far is very enlightening but will require much more study for me to 'get it'.

Thanks,
Ace

From Froz:

Darn...my computer crashed right in the middle of this post and I had to switch to Patriot's laptop. Sorry for the confusion.

Graplin,

You aren't off the threadpath at all. As a matter of fact, you are dead in the center of it.



If this wife's giving were truly a gift, she withdrew her gift the moment she resented her giving because she wasn't receiving what she wanted.



Also from Corinthians...

Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
(2 Corinthians 9:6-7)



From a story Jesus told of two sons who worked for their father:

There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, "Son, go work today in the vineyard."

"I will not," he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, "I will sir," but he did not go.

"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"

"The first", they answered.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

(Matt. 21:28-31)

In effect, the second son did not know who he really was. He didn't want to work in the vineyard, but he coudn't say, "I won't go." Thus, he was out of touch with himself. The first, because he could say no was in touch enough to later say yes. This kind of person can say no, and then his yes means something. We must be in touch with our no and in control of it, or it will control us. The second son could not own his no, so it owned him.

Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
(Luke 6:26)

If we are alawys trying to keep everyone happy, then we cannot make the choices required to live correctly and freely.

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
(Matt. 18:15)

Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
Leviticus 19:17-18

For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
(Matthew 20:1-15)

They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
(Matthew 23:4)

For every man shall bear his own burden.
(Galatians 6:5)

If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations — “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
(Col. 2:20-23)

We should not limit our desires to the point of misery.

Our limits should be broad enough to enjoy God's blessings. But if there are no limits, our desires take over life and reality.

When we reprove those we love, we are "taking the trash out," not letting it turn into hatred and bitterness.

Realizing our spiritual and emotional property line is the key to responsibility, freedom and love.

People who do not have clear boundaries feel respondible for things they should not feel responsible for, like others' feelings, disappointments, consequences and actions. They feel guilty for not being what others want them to be and for not doing what others want them to do. They feel like they are bad for not carrying through on "their" responsibility to make others happy.

By the same token, people who feel overresponsible for others often neglect their own backyard. They do not carry their own load because they are too busy carrying the load of others. They feel so responsible for others that they do not deal with their own pain and life.

People have feelings of obligation when they are not choosing what they will give and what they will not give. They feel compelled to give to others; they are not free and in control of themselves.

That belief keeps others in an immature position. The truth is that we need to be responsible TO others, not FOR them. We have a responsibility to those in need; however we must require responsibility from the able-bodied. To not do that is to enable them to remain immature.

From Froz:

Welcome JKim and Ace!!!

Air conditioning AND refreshments!

Thanks, Froz. And thanks BR for 'popping over' to the Enabler/Controller thread to help me become a "recovering controller".

I am a renter, but as best as I can figure my DH is closer to being a buyer most of the time than I am. My tendency to control (which, to my chagrin, I've recently discovered) is a major stumbling block in our recovery. That's what led to our explosion which eventually we were able to overcome and led to my poem "Beyond THE BEFORE."

It worked, but I'm not pleased with what I've realized was our solution: My controlling behavior and my DH's willingness to sacrifice and stuff his real feelings to the point that he even cried in anguish when he realized that I would not deal with his continued lying and denials (non-A related).

I now see that within our communication, I have conditions that I expect my DH to display to my satisfaction. He must have a good attitude, be truthful, and quick to admit and apologize when errors are committed. I expect the same of myself.

When he fails to keep his end of the bargain, however, I am quick to tell him that it's best if we just cut to the chase, complete the inevitable, split now and get it over with. When I fail, however, DH tries to work with me to find out how to 'get back on the rails.'

I now recognize how I control him. I make him remorseful and apologetic because that's how we are able to get back on the rails. He jumps through my hoops with reckless abandon as soon as I throw my tantrums and hissy fits. He says (and backs it up with actions) that he will do anything to help me heal and help us to rebuild our trust and marriage so that it's better than it was before. (BTW, the bar was so low that we're now accomplishing that by leaps and bounds.)

But we struggle with motivations in our actions (or lack of postive perceptions.)

I want him to choose actions that please me because he wants to, not just because he knows that I want him to do certain things. I want to choose actions that please him because I want to, in addition to because I know it's what he wants me to do. At the same time, I want to be the source of his happiness and him to be the source of mine.

How do we accomplish this if I communicate like a renter when he seems to be a buyer? Or is he?

Thanks,
Ace

P.S. I just read this post to my DH and he said "I want to be a buyer...I am, aren't I?"

Ace,





That is WONDERFUL!!!



Changing thinking is not an easy task. I'm struggling with it myself. It's HARD not to think like a Renter.

But it's nothing more than a habit. And habits can be changed. If I remember correctly, you have attended MB Weekend?

Do you remember the illustration Dr. Harley used...the one where he had everyone fold their arms across their chest in the way that came naturally to them and then had them fold their arms in the manner that didn't come naturally?

It doesn't feel natural at first, but if you began to do it that way all the time, it would become more natural.

The same applies here.

This is something I have found useful:

Tools for Handling Control Issues

You're being prophetic, Froz.....DH says he will go to an MB weekend whenever I want to go. Nearly went to Burlingame in August and Orlando in October....but chose not to. I've been checking for their new schedule and we WILL go in 2008.

Will reply after church. Thanks for this thread.

Ace

Awwwwww...WE went to the October Orlando conference!

I would have loved to have met you.

I can't sing MB Weekend's praises enough. I was a little afraid it would simply be a re-cap for me because I was already pretty well-versed in MB principles, but hearing it straight from Dr. Harley along with explanations did offer me better understanding.

But the BEST part (for me, anyway) is the home study-course, which includes the follow-up nazis. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously...they call us weekly, they e-mail us to make sure we are completing our assignments.

Attendees of MB Weekend also gain access to Dr. Harley's private forum. We can post questions directly to Dr. Harley and he usually responds within 24 hours.

Short of having Dr. Harley actually move in with you and tell you exactly how to make progress, this is definitely the next best thing.

[color:"green"]Froz .... I am just so proud of you!

Reading this thread is like drinking fresh mountain spring water ... refreshing!

I decided to cut/paste parts of my old thread and just throw it in here ... [/color]


This is really long


[color:"red"]Renters believe:
Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe:
We are together for life.

Renters believe:
Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe:
We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe:
As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe:
As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe:
Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe:
Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe:
Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe:
Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe:
Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe:
Long-term solutions are necessary.[/color]


Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.



also....



... which brings us to POJA

Which is adopting the Buyer's strategy

[color:"red"]Means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests

Up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement

Which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other’s.... you seek mutual happiness [/color]


The good doctor says that couples that do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatible lifestyles....

Freeloader/Buyer relationships

most are remnants of a relationship that had once been Buyer/Buyer

if a Buyer becomes a Freeloader, it's usually because he or she has had an affair

(this is directly from Harley's book)


... which is ~why~ this board exists !!!!!


.... we recognize the cake-eating fence sitting alien-brained babbling WS anywhere ....

next comes the REALLY interesting stuff


[color:"green"]so now the former Buyer/Buyer agreement has become Freeloader/Buyer due to an affair

the Freeloader is trying to make up their mind about which relationship they want the most[/color]

Harley says: "Their new beliefs bewilder the betrayed partner."

.... duh.... we KNOW that Dr. Harley !!


Harley says that what we need to understand is that the affair TOTALLY changed the WS's agreement.

Harley sites research that says

it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior

I REALLY DON'T LIKE THIS !!! I must say .... but we have to deal with what is true and not with what we like ... back to Harley...

He says when beliefs and values are in conflict with behavior .... guess which one wins ~~~> yep, you guessed it ~~~`> behavior wins .... the beliefs and values are scraped in order to accomodate the behavior (the affair)

yuk!


Harley says that the Buyer/Buyer agreement CAN BE restored when the affair has finally ended.

BUT .... you ~knew~ there was gonna be a but didn't you?

this does not usually work if the unfaithful partner was NEVER a Buyer

hmmmmmmmmmmmm


Remember it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior ... which is why it is DUMB to try and "talk" a WS back home.

Harley says this is Plan A time .... the betrayed Buyer does his or her best to treat the unfaithful Freeloader with care, even while the affair is going on. ~~~> because "most affairs die a natural death"

Which is why after a reasonable amount of time has passed, Harley recommends Plan B .... which turns the faithful Buyer into a renter !!!!

Plan B is a renter's plan .... makes sense, doesn't it?


This is a fresh look at Plan B for me ...thinking of it as a fundamental change for the faithful/Buyer spouse ~~~> transitioning into a faithful/Renter position.

Harley says
I think this is pretty darn interesting....


I can think of many MB posters who are the Faithful/Buyer, married to a Renter or a Freeloader ...

and they are loath to convert his/her self into a Renter in order to ease out of the painful dilemma of being married to a non-commited spouse.

What an awful place to be .... it is as if the Buyer has to change ~their own~ beliefs and values in order to avoid a life of neglect and painful betrayal.

but remember what Harley said ...

it is easier to change your beliefs and values than it is to change your behavior .... especially those dearly held values dealing with marriage and commitment....


Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility

and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners

this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse

every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship

think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner .... does that make it easier?


If a decision does not create enthusiasm for both ... the decision needs to be negotiated until both are pleased with the decision and the decision creates a compatible environment


Buyers are exciting and imaginative because it takes a lot of creativity to POJA a marriage !!!!!


Now for something really cool.....

Giver/Taker ... or as Harley says:
[color:"blue"]The Giver's Rule ... do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy even it it makes you unhappy. [/color]

Everyone has a giver. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers .... criminals ... Grandma .... your MIL .... your cheating spouse.... your faithful spouse. Our Giver wants us to make a positive difference in the lives of others and it grows out of our instinct to provide care. "give until it hurts"

[color:"blue"]The Taker's Rule ... do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes you unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy.[/color]

Everyone has a Taker. EVERYONE. Freeloaders, Renters, Buyers ... criminals ... Grandma ... your MIL ... your cheating spouse ... your faithful spouse ... Our Taker wants us to get the most out of life, and it grows out of our basic instinct for self-preservation. "get what you need in life"

Harley says:


!!!!!!!!!!!! KEWL

Wait .... there's MORE !!!!!!!

Harley goes on to say:


!!!!!! REALLY KEWL and there's more !!!!

Harley says:


So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker

and they are both good ... because

they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)

AND

they are both bad ... because

they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)

~~ Here's the importnt point Harley makes~~



So

Freeloader
Renter
Buyer

[color:"red"]represent our agreement in our romantic relationships[/color]

while Giver/Taker are instinctive influences to everyone irregardless of our current agreement

Harley says:


..... and it's interesting that both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements hold our Giver and Taker in check.

Both Freeloader's and Buyer's agreements disallow us to become self-sacrificing in our romantic relationship.

Freeloader's agreement and Buyer's agreements do not allow us to expect others to self-sacrifice in a romantic relationship.

But for very different reasons .....

Freeloaders feel that the right relationship should be effortless and people should only do what comes naturally.

Buyer's assume a long-term romantic relationship requires mutually enjoyable accomodation and encourages behavioral change to resolve conflict.

[color:"purple"]SO ..... those of us who are the faithful partner and thereby assume we are automatically THE BUYER in the relationship ... think again ! It is equally possible we are RENTERS .... especially if we are willing to sacrifice ourselves in order to "save the marriage" .... [/color]


If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are no longer a Buyer.


I am going to get to the most interesting thing ... the Renter/Renter agreement

and how it inspires arguements and fights because it allows sacrificing to enter the relationship !!!!


[color:"green"]The Renter's agreement places NO RESTRICTIONS on the Giver and the Taker.[/color]

Renters accept the sacrifice of others in a romantic relationship.

Renters accept the sacrifice of the self in a romantic relationship.

When a couple opens the door to expecting sacrifice of each other, arguements and fights and resentments are the result.

.... but it doesn't start off like that .... it starts off looking rather pleasant and feeling rather lovey-dovey ..... because Renters begin their romance with mutual sacrifice.

Givers control the courtship. Both Renters are in Giver-mode sacrificing in order to make the other happy ... and all is great .... as long as both partners stay in Giver mode.

But, no one does. Because Giver mode 24/7 is short-sighted and does not care for the self.

So ... the love and care Renter/Giver to Renter/Giver supply each other is UNpleasant because it ignores our Taker .... who cares for us. And this sacrifice for love takes it's toll.

Harley says it this way:



Which may help understand ~why~ most affair relationships are doomed to fail ....

this happends....

When someone feels the unpleasant effects of all their sacrificing .... stress enters .... and their Taker starts demanding a little "me time" .... and they express "If you won't give me what I need when I ask for it, I'll make you give it to me."

manipulation begins .... choose your weapons


Harley says:



~after all~ your partner OWES YOU .... you have sacrificed sooooooo much .... and your partner OUGHT TO sacrifice for YOU now !!!!

~~~~~~boxing gloves on ! My Taker is going to take on your Taker....


Harley says:




The Buyers approach to problem solving.

[color:"purple"]Byers don't try to control each other.

Buyers don't make demands.

Buyers don't show disrespect or lose their temper.

They solve their problems by negotiating solutions that are win/win.[/color]

dependency
You are dependent when what you recive is not balanced by what you give in return.

How can we create a dependent spouse?
When we are in the early/Renter romantic stages of a relationship, we tend to give and give and give ~~~> sacrifical giving. And all that giving creates a DEPENDENCY in our spouse. All that giving creates EXPECTATIONS that are unrealistic in a long-term romantic relationship.

[color:"red"]Giving without wanting anything in return ~~~> the Giver is running wild and unchecked.[/color]

What does that create in the other spouse? Their Taker is given free reign. "gimme gimme gimme"

This sets up opportunity for abusive relationships where one spouse is giver heavy and the other is Taker heavy.

No balance. No give-take. The GIVER is the one who creates this ... by sacrificing and essentially training their spouses' Taker that there are no limits to how much sacrificing their spouse might submit to.

Control
Once you reach a point where you have your spouse depending on you , you are now in a position to control your spouse.

While our Giver sets up dependency by encouraging us to give unconditionally, our Taker has no such generous motives.

Our Taker will not be denied ! Now that your spouse is dependant on you, your Taker wants to control what the spouse must do in order to payback for all the sacrificing !!!

So if my Giver-gone-wild has set up my spouse to become dependant on me ... what happends to my Taker side? My Taker begins to feel that this situation is terribly unfair, and starts to grumble and complain ... and then make demands, start fights and generally tries to control my spouse... and I might even run off and have an affair "Because I have done so much for this marriage and never get anything in return ... it's MY TURN to do something just for me"

yuk


POJA requires this question be asked

"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"

Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.

POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it

OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."

and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal?


[color:"purple"]Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.[/color]

Harley says


It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*

[color:"purple"]Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.[/color]

Harley says


It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.



VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.


[color:"purple"]Guideline 4

Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement[/color]

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~



[/color]


Taken from the concepts part of MB site .....

Quote:






Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list?

...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!!

.... now to apply it to POJA .... hmmmmm


Which brings me to a question ....

emotional honesty ... I don't think a couple can be successful in POJA negotiations without emotional honesty.

How can one POJA with an emotionally dishonest partner?

.... lest we forget ... a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ...

REMEMBER THE QUESTION THAT OPENS POJA

[color:"green"]How would you feel about this ..... [/color]


From this site regarding emotional honesty

Quote:




.... so we must be honest about our feelings

... and then POJA

"You did then what you knew then. Now you know better, you will do better."

I sign off, a happy and joy-filled POJA-lovin' woman

Pep

That is the longest post in the history of the world ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep,

Thank you so much!!!

Funny you should post that today. Patriot and I were doing our MB Weekend follow-up assignment this morning. Our assignment was to listen to a CD and read the chapter in Lovebusters that defines marital abuse.

And the answers to many of the questions that some have posted here are right there in the Basic Concepts. So I've been rolling it all around in my mind and trying to decide if I should just type the whole darn thing out.

I'm so grateful that YOU did!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Many of us here have read these concepts. We understand the words and see the logic. For me, it's much more difficult to see the things I am doing that are directly contributing to the problems my marriage is experiencing. One step at a time.

Darn it, I'm lovebusting right this minute by being late to my parents house for Thanksgiving and Patriot is waiting in the car.

Have to finish this later.

I said I'd post more after church, but I want to read and digest Pep's post a few times. Dang, I missed her again. If you're lurking here, Pep....I posted a thank you to you back on Nov. 20....I think it's on page 3 of GQII now simply entitled "Hey PEP".

Thanks,
Ace

[color:"green"]Edited to add Bob's quote:

"You know what Froz ?
Squids much more of a buyer than I am. MUCH MUCH more."
Bob.....I'm so relieved to hear that I'm not the only one with a FWS who is closer to being a buyer than I purport to be. Thank you. (And your 'longest post in the whole world' was soooo funny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL) [/color]