Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,107
B
Member
Member
B Offline
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,107
You know what Froz ?
Squids much more of a buyer than I am. MUCH MUCH more.


MB Alumni
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
Quote
You know what Froz ?
Squids much more of a buyer than I am. MUCH MUCH more.


Kind of a weird realization, isn't it? It was for me.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,140
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,140
Here's the short version of what I've gotten from this (excellent) thread so far:

FREELOADER:
Refuses to sacrifice
Is perfectly content if spouse sacrifices

RENTER:
Believes both parties should be willing to sacrifice

BUYER:
Refuses to sacrifice
Does not want spouse to sacrifice, either

I like how it's been pointed out that B/R/F does not depend on the length of committment to the relationship, but instead depends on how the person looks at the role of sacrifice in the relationship.

Thanks, Froz!
Mulan


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
Quote
You know what Froz ?
Squids much more of a buyer than I am. MUCH MUCH more.


This is an interesting dynamic. My FWH is more of a BUYER, too..


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
Looking back at our M pre-A, I see I had a lot of Freeloader behaviors. I wasn't going to make sacrifices to give my H what he wanted, but if he felt the need to do that (and be a martyr about it) that was his problem. Thus, even though he had ENs for AS and DS, I did not lift a finger to meet either. H was a Renter who thought he was a Buyer.

Then, when we grew apart, I thought I was a Buyer, too-- I was in it for life, right? But I really was a Renter. I was sacrificing my own ENs to stay in the M because it was the right thing to do. M is all about sacrifice, right? H continued to be a Renter.

Then he had his As, and became a Freeloader, but still acted like a sacrificing Renter. The difference is that he decided he was only going to do the things that mattered to him, and was not going to worry about anything that mattered to me.


While I was fighting multiple D-days and changing myself, I was still Renting. Sacrifice.

Has either of us changed into a Buyer? I will have to ponder that some. I got really frustrated over the weekend after H spent 2 days of it sick. And I provoked a fight last night. But getting sick really isn't an issue for POJA. I think I was still in Renter mode, sacrificing my own needs for my H's. Then my Taker took over!

Buyer behavior-- there are a couple of things I would like changed and I am trying to find a way to talk about them with my H. So far, I'm just managing to fight about them.

Does that mean that when the Taker is active, I am more likely to be headed towards Buyer status?

H is more Buyer than freeloader, but he used to say (mid D-days) he is a renter. Stay as long as it's working.

And another question--is Buyer/Renter/Freeloader an issue of state of mind or behavior? Is it what I am or what I do?


Chrysalis
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
And another question--is Buyer/Renter/Freeloader an issue of state of mind or behavior? Is it what I am or what I do?

For me, it is easier to change what I DO right now, and the state of mind comes following along. My mind and actions are actually syncing up pretty quickly right now, but this is all new to me. I am MORE interested in finding solutions right now, than I ever have been.

I was renter all the way during our relationship. I really had no idea, I THOUGHT I was in it for the long haul. I didn't KNOW what that meant, and what that required of ME. I'm getting it now. My TAKER was shut down all this time and that was BAD.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
Quote
Does that mean that when the Taker is active, I am more likely to be headed towards Buyer status?


No. A Buyer balances Giver and Taker, using BOTH simultaneously.

Quote
And another question--is Buyer/Renter/Freeloader an issue of state of mind or behavior? Is it what I am or what I do?


It is the way you behave BASED on your state of mind.

And I think that SL has it correct...change the actions and the thoughts and feelings follow suit.

So how do you trade in your Renter Agreement for a Buyer's Agreement?

You begin ACTING like a Buyer.

HOW???

Let's talk about the Three States of Mind in Marriage...

The State of Intimacy
The State of Conflict
The State of Withdrawal

Each of these States of Mind dictate how you negotiate.

In The State of Intimacy:

Negotiation in this state of marriage is controlled by the Giver and the Giver's rule. When one spouse expresses a desire, the other rushes to fulfill it. There is no thought of repayment, because the Giver's care is unconditional. As long as both spouses are in the same state, there's actually nothing to negotiate--they give each other anything that's possible, and they do it unconditionally.

But giving unconditionally isn't really negotiating. It's giving whatever is requested without the need to bargain. And more importantly, it's with the attitude that bargaining would be somehow immoral, because it would imply conditionality.

You can get into some very bad habits when you are in the state of intimacy. A new mother in love with her husband may let her husband completely off the hook when it comes to child care. A husband in love with his wife may do nothing to restrain her tendency toward irresponsible spending, driving them both into backrupcy. And once these bad habits have been around for a while, they are very difficult to change.

You'd think that the state of intimacy would guide a husband and wife toward marital bliss. But, instead, because of the failure to negotiate terms that benefit both spouses, it tends to drive them toward the second state of mind in marriage, conflict.


In The State of Conflict:

As long as a husband and wife are happy, the state of intimacy hums right along. But no one is happy all the time, especially when making sacrifices to make someone else happy. And when unhappiness is experienced by either spouse, the slumbering Taker is immediately alerted to the pain.

"What's going on? Who's upsetting you?" the slumbering Taker wants to know.

It can be a temporary lapse if your spouse is still in a giving mood and apologizes for the error (whether or not it's his or her fault). Your spouse may promise to be more thoughtful in the future or make a greater effort to meet an unmet need. The Taker is satisfied that all is well, and goes back to sleep, leaving the Giver in charge, and keeping you in the state of intimacy.

But what happens if there are no apologies? What if the damage is not repaired quickly? What if one spouse continues to be thoughtless or unwilling to meet an emotional need?

When that occurs, the Taker, mindful of all your sacrifices in the state of Intimacy, comes to your defense.

I think it's time for a new rule, the Taker advises. Youメve done enough giving for a while, now it's time to get something in return. Instinctively, you adapt the Taker's rule: Do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes your spouse unhappy. When that happens, you've entered the second state of mind in marriage -- Conflict

When one spouse follows this new rule, it isn't long before the other spouse's Taker pushes the Giver aside and is ready for battle. In this state of Conflict, spouses are no longer willing to be thoughtful or to meet each other's needs. Instead, they demand that the other spouse become more thoughtful and that their own needs be met first. They no longer guarantee protection, but instead, threaten each other unless their demands are met. When demands are not met, the Taker resorts to disrespectful judgments, and when that doesn't work, out come the armaments. Angry outbursts are the Taker's last-ditch effort to solve the problem.

In the state of Conflict, conversation tends to be disrespectful, resentful and even hateful. Mutual care and concern have been replaced by mutual self-centeredness. Your Taker no longer trusts your spouse to look after your interests, but pulls out all the stops to see to it that you are treated fairly. The problem, of course, is that your Taker does not know how to treat your spouse with that same fairness. Fairness is viewed by the Taker as getting its way at all costs.

In the state of Conflict, couples are still emotionally bonded and that makes the pain of thoughtlessness even worse. Love units are withdrawn at a very fast rate. They may still hope that the hurting will stop and there will be a return to the state of Intimacy, but they don't trust each other to stop the madness. Occasionally, one spouse may revert to the state of Intimacy, but if peace is to return, they must both do it simultaneously. The only way to calm down both spouse's Takers is for both of them to be protected at the same time.

Couples can return to the state of Intimacy from Conflict, if, and only if, they stop hurting each other and return to meeting each other's emotional needs again.

But it's very difficult to be thoughtful in the state of Conflict, because your Taker urges you to return pain whenever you receive it. So for most couples, the state of Conflict inspires them to think with short-sightedness. Instead of wanting to meet each other's needs, they want their own needs met before they'll do anything. That makes resolving the conflict seem almost impossible, because our Takers would rather fight than try to make the other spouse happy.

Negotiations in the state of Intimacy really don't work, because each spouse is trying to out-give each other. Sooner or later, one spouse feels used by the arrangement. It's not what I consider bargaining -- it's like giving away the store!

However, negotiations in the state of Conflict don't work either. Each spouse is trying to out-take each other. There is no effort to make the other spouse happy, only the self-centered effort of pleasing yourself at the other person's expense -- it's like robbing the bank.

When a husband and wife are in the state of Conflict long enough, the resentment and disillusionment they experience eventually convinces their Takers that fighting doesn't work. A new approach is warranted, and that approach ushers in the the third state of mind in marriage, Withdrawal.

In The State of Withdrawal:

Reason would dictate that demands, disrespect and anger are not the way to resolve conflicts in marriage. But with the Giver and Taker as the only instinctive alternatives, reason doesn't play much of a role in marital problem-solving. Instead, mood is almost everything, and after a fight, most couples do not feel much like going back to the rule of the Giver.

So they leave the Taker in charge, and the Taker adopts a new approach. In the state of Conflict it's strategy is fight. But in the state of Withdrawal, it's strategy is flight.

When you're in the state of Conflict, your Taker tries to force your spouse to meet your needs, making demands, showing disrespect, and threatening your spouse with angry outbursts to get its way. But if that doesn't work--if your spouse does not meet your needs--your Taker suggests a new approach to the problem: Withdrawal. It tries to convince you that your spouse is not worth the effort, and you should engage in emotional divorce.

In the state of Withdrawal, spouses no longer feel emotionally bonded or in love, and emotional defenses are raised. Neither one wants to try to meet the other's needs, and both have given up on attempts to get their own needs met by the other. One becomes two. They are completely independent, united only in living arrangements, finances and childrearing, although they often have to keep up appearances for neighbors and friends.

When one spouse enters the state of Withdrawal, the other usually follows. After all, what is the point? If she is meeting none of his needs and rebuffing every effort he makes to meet hers, he might as well give up, too. The thoughtless behavior by each spouse toward the other becomes too great to bear, so they stop caring. Trust is a faint memory.

Emotional needs can be met only when we are emotionally vulnerable to someone who meets those needs. When we are in the state of Withdrawal, our emotional needs cannot be met because we've raised our defenses. Even when a spouse tries to meet an emotional need, the defensive wall blunts the effect to prevent any Love Bank deposits.

Couples in Withdrawal are really in a state of emotional divorce. When they've been in Withdrawal for any length of time, they will sleep in separate rooms, take separate vacations, and eat meals at different times. They will not communicate unless they must. If that doesn't work, they either separate or obtain a legal divorce.

I've already explained that the states of Intimacy and Conflict discourage negotiating. But in the state of Withdrawal there isn't the slightest interest in it. In Intimacy, couples must only ask in order to receive. In Conflict, they fight to try to get what they want, and the bargain is usually less than intelligent. But in Withdrawal, there is no discussion, no bargaining, not even arguing. In that state, a spouse is unwilling to do anything for his or her spouse or let the spouse do anything in return.

When a couple is in the state of Withdrawal, the marriage seems hopeless. There is no willingness to be thoughtful or to meet each other's emotional needs, and no willingness to even talk about the problems. When both spouses are in the state of Withdrawal, at that point in time, it really is hopeless, because neither are at all interested in saving the marriage.

But the state of Withdrawal doesn't usually last very long. Sooner than most couples think, at least one spouse has the presence of mind to try to break the deadlock. When that happens, it's possible for that spouse to lead the other all the way back to the state of Intimacy. But it's possible only if the Giver and Taker are relegated to the back room.

How One Spouse Can Lead the other Back to Intimacy

Marriage partners do not necessarily experience the same state of mind in marriage at the same time. One spouse may disrupt the other's state of Intimacy by failing to meet an emotional need, or inadvertant thoughtlessness. In the state of Conflict, the offended spouse begins to complain, nag, and may even try to start a fight. As the complaints escalate, the other spouse who has been in the state of Intimacy, is dragged into the state of Conflict as well, and then the fighting begins in earnest.

Typically, if they fail in their efforts to resolve the conflict, and if the unpleasant effects escalate, one spouse will go into Withdrawal first and raise his or her emotional barriers. The spouse that remains in the state of Conflict continues to argue, while the withdrawn spouse tries to escape. If the arguing spouse persists, the withdrawn spouse may be goaded to re-enter the Conflict state, and fight back. Or, the arguing spouse may give up and enter the Withdrawal state, too.

One spouse may also lead the other on the road back from Withdrawal to Conflict and eventually to back to Intimacy. In Withdrawal, a husband may decide to make a new effort to restore Intimacy and toss out an olive branch. That effort places him back into the Conflict state, while his wife is still in Withdrawal.

Suppose his effort is an encouragement to her and she eventually joins him in the state of Conflict. Now they are both willing to have their needs met by the other, but their Takers encourage them to fight about it, rather than negotiate intelligently and peacefully. In all too many cases, if they follow their Taker's advice and argue rather than negotiate, they both find themselves back in the state of Withdrawal, convinced that in that state their marriage is safer, and certainly more peaceful.

But this step from Withdrawal to Conflict is a step in the right direction, and provides spouses an opportunity to regain Intimacy -- if they can resist the advice of their Takers. Withdrawal may seem more peaceful, but it is actually a shuttering down of the marriage. A return to the state of Conflict is a sign that the partners have restored hope -- the marriage is worth fighting over. By coming out of Withdrawal, they are lowering their emotional defenses and taking the risk of getting close to each other again.

While demanding and arguing is instinctive in the state of Conflict, one spouse can lead the other back to Intimacy by resisting the Taker's temptation to fight. It takes two to argue, and if one spouse makes an effort to avoid making demands and judgmental statements, and tries to be thoughtful and meet the other's needs, the other spouse usually calms down and does the same thing.

Once they see each other's caring efforts, and rebuild their Love Bank accounts, they re-enter the Intimacy stage. But there's an irony that trips up some couples. Which spouse do you think is the first to move back into the state of Intimacy: the one who makes the first effort to meet the other's needs, or the recipient of that effort? You may have guessed it. The recipient of care is usually the first to return to the state of intimacy, and not the one who make the greatest effort to save the relationship.

If you set a good example by meeting your spouse's needs first, alas, that usually means that your own needs are met last. Your Taker is not pleased with this arrangement, and may try to sabotage it. You will need to make a deliberate and patient effort to override the Taker's instinct to retreat back to fighting and name-calling. But if you resist that instinct to argue, and instead focus attention on behaving thoughtfully and meeting your spouse's needs, your spouse will be encouraged to reciprocate.

Granted, when in the state of Conflict, it's much more difficult to be thoughtful and meet each other's emotional needs. That's because the Taker's advice dominates the Giver's advice, and the Taker isn't interested in thoughtfulness or meeting someone else's needs. So if you want to return to Intimacy, you must override this instinct with great effort. Meeting an emotional need in marriage is easy when you are in the state of Intimacy, because the Giver encourages you to do just that. But in the state of Confict, it seems very unnatural and even unfair.

When your Love Bank balances are finally restored, and your love for each other is triggered again, the struggle is over. You will have returned to Intimacy, and along with it, everything you need to do for each other will seem almost effortless.

The passage from Intimacy, through Conflict, to Withdrawal is a slippery slope. You can get there before you know it. But it takes quite a bit of work to climb back up that hill. While one of you can help by pulling the other back up the hill, it's a lot easier when you both work together. And the best way to work yourselves back to Intimacy from Withdrawal and Conflict is by negotiating effectively.

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
I propose we make sure that everyone fully understands that last post and then we'll move along with how to become a Buyer.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
I will digest this post while making my din din. Thanks Froz, for that post. I remember reading all of this, but all of the information about B/R/F and the states of M are coming together in my head.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
Okay.

I'll try to be patient. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
I'm good to go.


Chrysalis
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
I could tell you were "getting it", Chrys.

I find it very interesting to know that the State of Mind we are in determines the way that we attempt to negotiate.

I see clearly how I have fit each of those patterns.

Do you?

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
C
Member
Member
C Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,637
What I am wondering is if the three states of mind constitute a closed system, since none of them lead to good negotiations. Or is there another state of mind?

So the flowers my H sent me today after I provoked a fight last night== leading back to intimacy?

It is better than withdrawal, where we lived for a long time.


Chrysalis
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
Our M was in a definite state of withdrawal for quite some time prior to the infidelity. Neither one of us was going to budge, and we had no interest in giving OR receiving. I was just disgusted with my FWH, at the time.

Once the A's occurred, I went into Conflict, and have resided there since. It's only now that I am moving toward Intimacy.

I always assumed intimacy was just about all the 'warm fuzzy' things. I now recognize it's about honesty; honest giving and recieving and relating.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
Quote
What I am wondering is if the three states of mind constitute a closed system, since none of them lead to good negotiations. Or is there another state of mind?


Uh huh...BUYER!

Quote
So the flowers my H sent me today after I provoked a fight last night== leading back to intimacy?


It sounds that way to me.

I also think it is interesting that both spouses are not necessarily in the same State of Mind.

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
Dr. Harley says that in order to have a successful marriage, you must fight your instincts in each of the three States of Mind in Marriage.

In the State of Intimacy, your Giver is ruling.
In the State of Conflict, your Taker is ruling.
In the State of Withdrawal, nothing is getting in and nothing is getting out. You're stuck.

It's tempting to want to use your Giver when you are in the State of Intimacy and you're feeling warm and fuzzy. There is nothing wrong with giving. There is something wrong with giving that you may later feel resentful about or giving until you're depleted.

It's tempting in the State of Conflict to want to use your Taker. Do you see how letting your Giver rule while you were in the State of Intimacy actually sets the stage for your Taker to later come out and run amok?

The State of Withdrawal just sucks all the way around. That's all I'm saying about the State of Withdrawal right now. I hate the State of Withdrawal.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
Quote
The State of Withdrawal just sucks all the way around. That's all I'm saying about the State of Withdrawal right now. I hate the State of Withdrawal


Well spoken words about the State of Withdrawal. BLECH!

It's clicking now, keep em coming, Froz.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
Yeah?

Can you guess how to balance Giver and Taker?

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
Could it beeeee.....

POJA?!


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,033
I just love smart people!

Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 463 guests, and 178 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
IO Games, IronMaverick, Gregory Robinson, Limkao, Emily01
72,037 Registered Users
Latest Posts
Three Times A Charm
by Vallation - 07/24/25 11:54 PM
How important is it to get the whole story?
by still seeking - 07/24/25 01:29 AM
Annulment reconsideration help
by abrrba - 07/21/25 03:05 PM
Help: I Don't Like Being Around My Wife
by abrrba - 07/21/25 03:01 PM
Following Ex-Wifes Nursing Schedule?
by Roger Beach - 07/16/25 04:21 AM
My wife wants a separation
by Roger Beach - 07/16/25 04:20 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,625
Posts2,323,524
Members72,038
Most Online6,102
Jul 3rd, 2025
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 2025, Marriage Builders, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0