Oh my, MEDC..the whole thread has been an acknowledgement of the change in my viewpoint...

I may not use the EXACT WORDS you want me to use..SORRY...

sorry if I missed that point Mimi. Welcome aboard.

I hope you understand why I feel that those explicit conversations about sexual things to do really should not be had on an infidelity forum. It just seems off for this setting.

Again, sorry for missing the point.

MEDC - He's unlikely to respond to an email. I really do suggest calling his radio program.

Ouch. Sorry if I offended you MEDC. I was speaking purely as a MARRIED woman to other MARRIED people about meeting each other's fulfilling their partner's need for SF even while wayward. This is a MARRIAGE building site. NO WAY would I speak otherwise.

I'm beginning to believe that with you, it's your way or the highway. That's too bad.

I'll bow of this thread now. Sorry if I offended ANYONE.

Because I don't believe it is okay to have explicit discussions about sexual practices on a mixed web site?

That doesn't make sense to me, but okay.

It it NOT about EXPLICIT DISCUSSIONS OF SEXUAL PRACTICES...ICK...

Or is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I've seen PG-13 movies more sexually explicit, but I do understand someone taking offense. I will certainly refrain from raunch or very explicit verbage.

edited by MEDC to remove quote.


It certainly seems like we were headed in that direction Mimi.

Thank you SL.

I don't mind having the discussion, I just would like to keep it appropriate for the men/women here. I would NOT be okay with my partner discussing sex stuff with men in a group setting.

Thanks for understanding.

Gee MEDC... I was going to delete my post so "mixed company" wouldn't see it but you quoted me. What was the point of that?

And THAT was my last post on this thread. LOL

I agree with mimi...to a point. Allow me to explain.

Meeting those primary needs is a BINDING act..and I don't think they come more binding than sex [unless of course if sex is low on your list].

If you had a WS who was in the primary stages of withdrawing from the marriage relationship towards an OP but who had not yet made the jump to PA [and you are sure of this] and who had SF as a top EN then I think that would be fantastic advice. Ill advised really NOT to take it. Make their cup runneth over, yeah?

Mimi and I have duked this one out for years and I think I finally know why the friction exists.

Because I CAN'T take that position. And I recognise that it might work...but I can't take it anyway nor can I advise others to do so.

When her H had his affair she was already "mature". They were in their middle years. The kids are grown and you know...even a disease like HIV [aka the worst case scenario] would more likely be a chronic illness that affected the rest of her life but didn't actually shorten it by MUCH. People are living with it for 20 yrs these days before they get seriously ill and in my 50's that would have me dying of it in my 70's. Well, ya gotta die of something right?

I on the other hand have small children still depending on me and can't affort that luxury. I can't regard my life callously just because my spouse is. If he self destructs he HAS to do it without me because I am still caring for the family we made and still responsible for them.

In some ways I am really OFFENDED at being unable to take the gloves off and fight for my man and my marriage bare knuckled and barenaked.

I definitely don't like going into a fight with a handicap.

Things have to be COMPLICATED though don't they?

I mean, if it were really that simple then why aren't you doing it already anyway? Why haven't they been getting their needs met and if they have then what makes you so sure that it will make a difference?

More people would be willing to take that risk for a happy ending but will they take it without a reward? Will they still feel the same way if they get a lovely batch of herpes/AIDS and a divorce?

What if your spouse is not willing to let you meet their needs in a meaningfull way?

What if sex with you PALES in comparison to affair sex and only further convinces them that the OP is the only option they can accept?

What if the OP is TRULY better at meetiong their ENs than you are? What if in a freeloader/freeloader "we only do things that come naturally to us" way the OP shares more of the same ENs in the same priority?

You think that SF which is about second to last in position for you is going to be as good for them as with someone who really DOES have it in first or second place? If they have sex with someone who really truly loves sex and is as fullfilled by it and as agressive about it as they are you will be able to fake it successfully for the rest of your life?

Can't ignore what the infatuation chemicals do to the experience of sex either.

I am more and more convinced as time passes that it's not my fight and never was my fight and I'm not big enough to win it in any case. I can't out carnal the carnal wo/man. I can't act on principle and compete with the fluidity of emotion based values [if it feels good it is good]. I can't compete with unbridled selfishness. That is related to the soul of the person gone astray. If they are dead and cold inside or on fire with addiction I am not enough to satiate and revive them.

It seems like waywards become unwayward when they are good and ready and not one second before then.

I have read and read and read accounts of waywards describing what defogged them and you know...it's always something mundane. And seemingly random. They walked past 50 things that should have made a difference but didn't...then one thing hit them where they lived and was meaningfull [to them anyway] and was recognizably involved in them changing direction.

There doesn't seem to be any magic ticket or key or predictability. You know..someone in a wayward frame of mind can step over their pleading child...can disregard an STD...can disregard a pregnant BS...can ignore financial disaster...and be confronted with some conversation or event that bears significance to them and it's a turning point.

Well...that's not very helpful to the manipulative hopefull is it? I mean I could beat my BRAINS out trying to unlock the heart of another person..heck even my own...only to discover that not only do I not have the key I can't figure out what the lock looks like!

I am not the designer and I am not the keymaster.

So I think my advice would be to go to the one who is and ask first that my OWN heart be unlocked.

Let me see what's in there. I can't even trust my OWN judgement about whether I have been a good spouse or not.

Then I think I would pray and follow the instructions and follow what is revealed to me.

For some people it might be to go ahead and meet ENs and for others it might be to back off and cut them off.

Some people might need to apologise and others might need to insulate themselves against malicious attacks from the insatiably entitled. Doing either of those things at the wrong time or in the wrong way seems to me like playing eenie meenie minee moe and then cutting [randomly] the wire attached to the bomb.

For Mimi it worked. For you it might work..or it might not.

These decisions are FOR KEEPS. If you meet the EN and get a disease or don't meet it and have to accept that you didn't do EVERYTHING you could to draw them back you will have to accept the consequences.

All the talk of condoms and safety measures is spitting in the wind imo. Having intimate contact with infected people puts you at risk. Period. Not all diseases require a fluid transmission. Safety is an illusion.

Some people will be drawn back to you and some will lose respect for you...so how do YOU decide?

I have been redundant several times over by this point but I'm too lazy to edit.

In my opinion the best thing you can do is take the issue to God and ask for specific direction. Then follow it.

I didn't DO this...I made my own judgement. Maybe it was the right judgement and maybe it cost me an experience or a reconnection that I would have benefitted from. If I had it to do over again that is what I would do so I guess that's my BEST advice.

Oh, no, I completely get it. I wouldn't want my FWH talking sex with other women, regardless of the forum.

I think we all got our points across regarding other methods of fulfilling this particular need WITHOUT putting ourselves in harm's way.

Awesome Post Noodle. Well said.

WOW, NOODLE:

I very much APPRECIATE and VALUE your post...



The AGE FACTOR really does AFFECT my thinking and behavior more than I acknowledge and realize...

I was just now talking with my H about something and I happened to say: "We don't have MUCH TIME...like before"...WOW...

One does have a different perspective on life in MIDDLE AGE for MANY DIFFERENT REASONS..I've witnessed and grieved the deaths of loved ones that I thought I couldn't LIVE without..KWIM..I'm more likely to say..I CAN HANDLE THAT..I think more about my own mortality...DEATH, SICKNESS is not as EARTH-SHATTERING to me as it used to be..I'm closer to it..a long ways off, I hope but I'm certainly way over halfway there...



I've come to terms with this, too..LIFE IS COMPLICATED...for sure...



EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT QUESTIONS to consider..and I, in fact, did consider these questions...MY PLAN A was more calculated than some would think or be able to accomplish..but that's ME..and a LONG, COMPLICATED STORY...



And I ABSOLUTELY knew,looking back now, that this WAS NOT TRUE for MY H..HE WAS NOT DEAD INSIDE about ME...again MY STORY..not necessarily true for others...

You speak SO BEAUTIFULLY about this, Noodle...



And that's why I'm laying this TO REST, personally, right now..because as I said on the other thread..I took this to GOD and I KNEW that HE was taking care of ME and I knew that I was going to be OK..It was SPIRITUAL..not of MBer's..not of this forum..IT WAS WHAT I HAD TO DO..I know this right at this moment..THANKS, NOODLE...



And yes. YOU DID WHAT YOU HAD TO DO and YOUR ADVICE is GODSENT...

((((NOODLE)))))

Couple of things...

Firstly terminology.

I tried to start a thread on the difference between Sex and Sexual Fulfillment but it got sidetracked.

To me, sex is an act (or one of a number of acts).

Sexual Fulfillment is an Emotional Need; it's also a state of being Sexually Fulfilled.

It's confusing to use SF when you mean sex, e.g.


SF CAN be 'done' [provided] without any risk. The poster is talking about risky SEX, not SF.

Using SF instead of sex makes it seem that SF is just having sex, which is just WRONG!

Secondly, Mimi, your question.

In part I think you're asking "what makes sex emotionally fulfilling for a man?"

Sex with an uninvolved partner is emotionally unfulfilling.

To me it's the INVOLVEMENT of a partner that makes sex fulfilling.

To give one man's opinion, the romance, candles etc are optional, but knowing your sex partner DESIRES you and is enjoying the act is critical for the act to be truly fulfilling.

Without your partner's emotional involvement, you might as well be making love alone.

You can show desire, with words, sounds, and movement - no need to spell it out...

Second choice would be knowing your partner wants to please you. If you don't desire your partner, but want to please him, just let him know this with your words and bodylanguage.

I'd be interested to know what other guys think about this. Is it important that you know your partner desires you, or is the physical release all-important, or is there something else that makes sex fulfilling or not.

THANKS, SOUL!!!

I'm glad that you chimed in with a MAN'S POV...

I sense that this IS/WAS true for my H...and what was lacking in our RELATIONSHIP prior to the A...

I would do the PHYSICAL ACT..OH, OK if you insist....but the DESIRE was lacking and what he was CRAVING...

You mean it's confusing to you

I agree with Soul and I think he's TRYING to be HELPFUL and asking for the perspective of other men here regarding this EMOTIONAL NEED...

I find the distinction pedantic and anal. Each to their own.

mimi, re: your original post on this thread

Harley does not infer that the BS should provide SF for the WS. He does say this:


Notice he says "needs" in the plural sense. There are bigger fish to fry than SF.

Sex alone does not mend broken marriages. At best, it is a distraction from the real issues that broke the marriage in the first place. One should not be so quick to satisfy that particular EN regardless of it's perceived importance. Sex certainly should not resume for fear that the WS will sit on the fence. Fear should not guide a Plan A.

SF in the marriage typically wanes due to 'other' marital issues. Deal with the elephants in the living room first and SF will resume naturally rather than forced.

Deal with respect, thoughtfulness, POJA and undivided attention, as Harley mentions in Plan A and meeting each others EN's (including SF) should practically resume by default.

In negotiating SF after the affair had ended, testing for STD's should be a priority. When both spouses are confident that it is safe to go back in the water, only then should SF resume. (IMO)