where is the meanness BR? You are making that up.

There should be a RANT about the issue....that doesn't make alternatives any less important. I would suggest that if the women and men here wish to have discussions about sexual things that can be done instead of intercourse, that they take it iff board where there is not a mixed crowd.

Morning Rosie,

I certainly hope you're not singeling me out as being "mean and nasty" to Mimi. If you re-read my posts you'll see I even hugged her for her missing her Grandmother.

Jo

My concern about having "not quite sex" with a WS is the same as it would be for say...a teenager who has made a choice to abstain.

Your good intentions can [and probably will] go right out the window when the heat is on.

There really is no such thing as safe sex...not physically and not emotionally.

I think that you are either going to have sex and meet that EN to the best of your ability or you are not and each person will have to chose to accept the potantial losses along with the potential gains.

No Jo, I'm not pointing at you.

medc I don't disagree that there should be a rant.

but a rant every single time IN LIEU of any other alternative is not productive.

And I am NOT suggesting that we discuss "almost sex".

I am suggesting that we discuss how to communicate or address the issue.

For example:

A wife could say to her husband:

I did not realize that sex made you feel close to me and I did not realize that it was so important to you. I've been reading about men's needs and I see that I was blind to your needs and I see that I hurt you. I am so sorry that I disregarded your needs. If you agree to rebuild our marriage, I would like to explore ways that we both can be sexually fulfilled.

Sex is too important to be ignored. Saying don't do it, without offering a way to address it is NOT helpful and will just result in unsafe sex for lack of other tools.

there were suggestions made about how to address it BR. I know it is a long thread...but it is there.

I agree that the H&W should talk about those things....and he/she should make it abundantly clear that they are willing to address the need when the affair has ended.

We are in complete agreement on that.

Oh I definitely agree with that.

One thing that troubles me about it is that most WSs HAVE ALREADY let the BS know these things many many times and have endured many broken promises.

It's usually a genuine freeload situation imo.

I only want to meet the needs that are important to ME.

So then if the WS has an affair with a partner who genuinely DOES have SF as a higher priority or even who is still in the infatuated state that makes it SEEM a higher priority the WS is unlikely to be compelled to let go of the rich and satisfying sex they already have with someone they are actively "in love" with to return for more empty promises.

This would be an example I think closer to mimis wherein she was able to put her money where her mouth was and SHOW that she could meet that need...at great personal risk.

See what I mean? I'm not deliberately being contrary just trying to be practical...if I haven't liked SF or haven't met that need for 20 yrs I'm not going to wake up a sex kitten.

There may be a very real problem of incompatability that will take WORK to untangle and inner change from both people.

Not usually what a WS is looking for.

Completely agree with a Plan A discussion taking place so the WS knows the BS wants and desires to meet that very important EN.

However, I suspect there's a very high percentage of BS that feel guilty for bumping that specific EN to the bottom of their EN list (pre-A) and want to make up for that void. Fuel that with their desperation, coupled with the WS fog, and I'm uncertain a conversation will have any impact.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not negating the value of a conversation taking place. I'm exploring how it can be HEARD by the foggy WS. Especially when we know they may be suspicious if its genuine based on the marital EN meeting history, or lack thereof.

Jo

let's also not forget that there are a lot of BS out there that were perfectly willing to put sex up there as a priority in a relationship and there partner still strayed. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to an affair except the immaturity of a spouse wanting something "new."

Yes, that's true MEDC but I don't think it's the usual circumstances.

Usually people who are invested...they have kids, time, assets, etc in a marriage don't toss it for something that is only "new" when there is ample food at the table at home.

New is exciting and enticing to be sure but it isn't USUALLY enough to compell and otherwise happy person to burn their life to the ground.

I agree that conversation about sex is not quite the same as delivering it - and there for, in a narrow context, probably wont be believed.

But put that conversation into context in a broader sense, with a background of a good plan A, with some good boundaries and self-respect on the part of the BS.

If the BS is delivering all promises in other aspects...I don't think it would be so unbelievable.

Yebbut - what WS actually thinks they are going to "burn their life to the ground?"

They just think they are being too, too cool and oh, so special by finding a way to have both a marriage AND "new and exciting" all at the same time!

"Burning their life to the ground" never enters their minds until they get caught and confronted. And then it's all the BS's fault, *still* not the WS's fault.
Mulan

Just another thought. As the BS gets into Plan B readiness, and if SF was an issue in the marriage, perhaps the BS should explore adding PBL verbiage illustrating their willingness and desire to meet that need.

Well BR, started out OK, then came the magic word
.......BUT.........

And you ended by saying:


So some of us are simply stating that our health and life could, just perhaps, outweigh SF, or even a happily recovered M.

The operative word here is CHOICE.

That's how this whole discussion started, IMHO.
If you're going to encourage a BS to have SF with a WS before being tested, you had better at least be aware you are rolling the dice on your very life. If you sat in an MD's office as I did, you would understand that it his

obligation to make you aware of the inherent risks of continued SF without further testing.

Armed with this knowledge, it also becomes everyones obligation to impart such knowledge, especially to a newbie who is not thinking straight at this time.

It's simply the flip side of the coin that everyone needs to make their own informed CHOICE.

Without that knowledge, you are left defenseless, to say the least.

JMHO.

All blessings,
Jerry

Mulan,

This was the absolute truth for my husband.

He NEVER planned on getting caught. It was

sex for the sake of sex.


In his mind, "No big deal".

I wasn't meeting the EN of SF. His top one at the time. Just a few weeks later, that EN dropped to the very bottom of the list.

Cancer hit our marriage, about as hard as the affair.

And SF went out the window, right after his surgery.

So before I signed off, I wish I had seen this thread.

Did I have SF with my H during recovery? You bet. Why? Because we had about 6 weeks left of what might be the very last possible SF in our lives together, EVER. Was he tested? Yes, but placed on antibiotics for everything possible anyway before the results were in, so that he was "cured" anyway before the surgery.

At the time, I saw only one future for us - together - and with the possible loss of ANY SF EVER, it was worth the risk to me. He was clean, BTW. I was lucky. My H stopped the affair immediately upon d-day.

I was able to move SF to the top of my list for him. I could meet that need, and wanted to, even before we knew of the cancer.

To everyone else who was asking:

So, how do you have SF without intercourse or oral sex?

It CAN be done. For those interested, and to respect the wishes of the people on this board, please Google "sex after prostate cancer". You can find forums for that issue. You also can find many other forums that offer plenty of advice for sex-without-sex. We had to learn about this. Not because we wanted to.

Because we HAD to.

My H walked in as I was reading this thread. I told him last week that I had signed off. I had intended not to ever post again. He read a little, and we both laughed, knowing what we know about sex......now.

We were such babies before. So innocent.

We could teach a class now.

And NEVER talk about intercourse once. No, you can definitely do "it" without doing it.

And as for recovery, he's there now. All the way there.

It took two long years. Funny, when I think about it.

Two years for the affair, two years for the cancer.

I think God does work in mysterious ways.


Schoolbus

Oh, and, it is the "real me" - I had an old member name that I dredged up and found the password for.

SB, now SB2 I guess!

(((((Mr. and Mrs. Schoolbus)))))

God bless.

Jerry - what I am saying is that this is not a either / or situation and that it has been boiled down by the STD police to a black and white Sex or Nothing proposition.

I 100% agree that sex with a WS is a dangerous, risky behavior.

But it is not that simple - when it becomes more than an intellectual excersize and instead becomes a highly emotional situation.

It is unrealistic and unfair to simply tell a BS - Don't Do It.

The fact is that people, especially men, have a deep need and connect through sex. The fact is that often, sexual issues were present in the marriage before the A, and perhaps were even used to justify the A.

Sex MUST be addressed in more detail than Don't Do It.

A vulnerable, desperate BS, when faced with a WS that suddenly decides to revisit sex behind the OPs back, needs more than Don't Do It in their back pocket.

Its a pretty common reaction from a BS to need to reclaim their territory, or reaffair their own desirability by having sex with a WS. All of the emotions around this kind of sex are very powerful - and you are talking about 2 people who have a sexual history between them - you aren't talking to a pair of strangers who don't know each other.

Don't Do It is just a completely inadequate way to address sex in this context.

Along with What Not to Do there needs to be Here is what you Can and Should Do.

Anything else is just not realistic.

VERY POWERFUL---INDEED!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It's a completely inadequate way to EVER address sex, IMO. MORE information needs to be imparted on the subject so that people can make informed decisions. This goes for adults and youth.

agreed. And as has been discussed on here, there are things a couple can do. There are also things that people can feel free to discuss with their own gender off board.

It is a simple black and white issue regarding intercourse and oral sex until it is safe. Other things are always open for discussion.

Having a discussion about sexual practices on a site where people are already known to have boundary issues though is not appropriate. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't be had...just that there are more appropriate venues.

And for anyone lacking in the creativity department....do an internet search for sex with STD's...or sex without intercourse....or go to a Barnes and Noble...they have a nice section on sexuality there. Be creative...but be mindful of the limitations due to your partner potentially having( a very good chance) a STD.

And since Plan A is advocated frequently in this discussion...please see the words of Dr. H above which are plain and simple about when this need should be addressed. After the affair has ended.

Nothing too complicated about that...is there ladies? After all...even though our goal is to save marriages..it is not at all costs.