A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury.

John Stuart Mill

I don't take offense to it. I worry though.

I think we all should be responsible and aware, and help make the new BS here aware, that if you do have sex with someone who is cheating there is a very real possibility you will contract a life threatening STD.

Just an FYI: I contracted the STD from my husband the first time he cheated, pre MB. I found MB during his repeat performance.

If I had found MB the first time and had some Vet here discourage me from having sex with him, it may have had an influence on my decision making. I know during that time in my life all I wanted was to show my husband how much I loved and wanted him back. Sex was the way I showed him, among other ENs. There was a degree of desperation, much like most BS I've read here and known in real life.

But looking back is conjecture MEDC, and I can't say for a fact what I would have done if MB was in the picture back then.

I'm actually thinking and learning from this discussion...

But I don't think it's HELPFUL to anybody to resort to calling each other DESPERATE or EVIL...

But again some folks choose to communicate that way...

NOT ME....

Jerry you said:
Thats what I inferred from. From my point of view - its not a black and white choice between health-risk/recovery and no sex/no marriage.

There has got to be some place in between.

I am frustrated because everytime SF even begins to be a discussion - all discussion stops as soon as the rants start about STDs.

I think the discussion about STDs must be PART of the discussion - instead of the only discussion.

My husband's OW made him get tested for STDs. They had his and hers STD tests. :gag:

I was pregnant during most of my husband's affair and refused to take a risk with my daughter's life. After, knowing there had been STD tests, I did take that risk. (I was and still do get regular checkups from my OBGYN who knows about the affair)

At the time however, I did not have anyone talk to me about how to cope with this aspect of our relationship. I probably would have made a different decision if I had thought there was a better way to handle it.

I was lucky, but I also wish I had something else in my own back pocket at the time - a way to meet that need, or address that need a different way.

I don't object to the STD discussion, I object to it becoming the ONLY discussion. It's really not fair to people struggling in this situation.

I agree BR.

Mimi...you throw these little poor me "hooks" out there looking for sympathy. It's like the repeated "I'm leaving" posts. Get over it already...please.

Do I think you were desperate...yes. And I have seen you enable desperate on these boards.


Do I think you are evil...Not even a little. Actually I think you can be very kind...often times with this topic, misguided, but kind nonetheless.

Do I think your words on this issue could cause evil to fall on another....yes.

Ok, MEDC..I hear you..but poor little me..I'm not..

I'm a FIGHT or FLIGHTER...

I leave when I want to TALK UGLY and call names...

Just wanted to make that very clear...

AGAIN I SAY..I WAS NEVER DESPERATE...

It's so important to me to say that because I am so thankful for Marriagebuilders in KEEPING me FROM POTENTIAL DESPERATION...

Without Marriagebuilders, I would have been DESPERATE or WORSE...

I am a FIGHTER, MEDC..I've had to learn not to FIGHT UGLY..but in a HEALTHY WAY...

Because I have had to deal with LOTS OF ADVERSITY....never known to be poor, pitiful...don't even know what that would look like for me...a little girl who for many years thought she was holding her family together...both her mother and father...I'm prone not to try take responsibility for anyone anymore...probably more information than you needed to know..but it felt good telling ya...

BR has made some very good points with her posts here.

I've seen every attempt at discussing this subject to turn to discussing abstinence and STD's. I also agree that addressing STD's is VERY important. I do not agree with ending the discussion there.

no, it's good to know...

but remember, IF people are turning to you for guidance during one of the darkest periods of their life, it would be helpful if you directed them down a path that takes into consideration not only their marital well being but also their personal well being.

You are taking enough responsibility to suggest that people protect assets and rights....help them protect their health too. Advising them at any point to meet their spouses EN's without warning them of the risks....and candy coating the danger with your lucky experience...is irresponsible. If the Harley's have ever suggested to a BS to have sex with a WS and did not take that issue into account, they were irresponsible.

I am a fighter too Mimi....I am not a fight or flight guy though. I stand my ground when the battle is clear. I think it was Believer that said I am very issue driven. that is true....and I am very happy about that side of me...even when the gloves come off. I can bare my soul or my knuckles...I am okay with either and make no apologies.

I appreciate you sharing Mimi.

SL..for all i know that discussion is occurring off board in a gender safe environment. It has been suggested...and some suggestions to that end have been made on this thread.

MEDC:

I often CHUCKLE when you talk about PLAN FU..cause that is my natural inclination..when feeling threatened and IN DESPERATION...that was my approach prior to finding MBers...

I hear you, MEDC....

From the author of Torn Asunder...

"First you have to rebuild non-sexual touch. If you don't have good touch, you don't have anything special. It's also important to have the cheating spouse cleared by a physician before you have sex again."

As a side note here....one of the things I've noticed over the years about the need for SF is that sexuality is almost always what I call a "compound" need. It's not just about pleasure. Most people who have a need for SF....also have other needs bundled together around it that "complete" the need. It can sometimes be different for men and women, but generally....people who have a strong need for SF also have a strong need for other needs that are "connected" to that need....specifically....Admiration, Affection, Communication and Attractive Spouse. For many men....the admiration is almost as important as the SF because it's all tied together with how they feel about themselves. Affairs feed their need for admiration every bit as much as they feed their need for sexuality. In many ways, the admiration and emotional intimacy they get from the A is even more important.

For someone whose spouse is still involved in an active A or post A when health and safety have not yet been established....there are plenty of ways to address the need for SF without creating the kind of risk that sex itself creates for the BS. A betrayed spouse can concentrate on the other bundled needs around it...safely...and with respect for self. Admiration is a really good choice for women whose husband's have cheated. Many men see sex as an expression of admiration for them. If a BS combines that with affection and works harder at being attractive....it's not the same as SF, but it does many of the same things without creating so much risk.

And here's another thing....What's almost import as the act itself is the desire to engage in it. I'm not talking about the BS here...but the WS. Enticing the WS to <want> to have sex with the BS (whether they get it or not) is very motivating. Many times, pre-A...A and post-A, the desire for sex has waned. The WS no longer finds their spouse attractive. It's possible to work on building desire without putting the BS at risk by "jumping the gun" so to speak.

I don't know if I'm being clear or not, but what I'm trying to say is that what is derived from SF is not just SF. SF creates physical connectivity, good feelings and confidence about self and your spouse, as well as affection and physical pleasure. With the exception of intercourse, all of those things can be achieved outside of SF until it's safe to be physically intimate again. You can create closeness and desire, you can even physically satisfy someone without throwing self protection to the wind.

Finally, the most obvious (or fastest) solution is not always the best solution. In this case, that's especially true because the most obvious solution is fraught with danger. But let's say that a poster has been ignoring their spouse's need for SF, witholding it, and now their spouse has cheated. The fastest way to get their attention might be to start providing SF....but that isn't necessarily the best way. Here's why:

a) It's sacrificial and doesn't protect the BS. Ultimately, that can cause problems later on of resentment or healthy issues.

b) It creates more power and entitlement for the WS. He/she now knows that in order to get what they want....their BS may need to feel threatened and scared....or desperate to keep them.

c) It can create disrespect for the BS. The WS can look on their efforts as pathetic and desperate.

d) It rewards horrible behavior.

e) It's a shortcut that can prevent the WS from understanding that dealing with the lack of SF CANNOT be addressed in such a destructive way. They learn to get what they want through negative means....and it reinforces bad behavior.

f) It's a temporary fix. It reinforces the idea that the needs of the WS are more important than the needs of the BS. It creates a false intimacy without the WS having to make restitution or compensation for the great ills they've done to the BS.

g) And finally, it can most definitely make a BS feel like a prostitute which in the long run will hurt their ability to continue to provide SF.

I'm glad it worked so well for you Mimi, and I'm sure it would work well for others too. But I think as an <early> recommendation it's far too dangerous to advise (to me) without laying the groundwork for real intimacy first: testing, honesty, end to the affair, compensation, regret, etc. Even if a BS is successful at turning their WS's head.....there's no guarantee at ALL that they will feel good about it within themselves. Real recovery has to take BOTH spouses into account....this strategy doesn't do that for me.

WONDERFUL POST, STAR!!

Lots of GREAT LESSONS for me and others in there.

Mimi, I did talk to Steve specifically about SF and was told that he didn't see anything wrong with it as long as I felt ok with it.

This is my FWH's top need and I went several years of our M not meeting it. Like Noodle stated in her earlier post, my FWH was not going to believe I was willing to meet this need now unless I put my money where my mouth was. I knew the risks, I'm an adult. We all know the risks and I get very tired of feeling like I am an awful person b/c I CHOSE to meet this need.

I was not in plan DESPERATE either but I won't say I wasn't in a little BS fog of my own. As of right now my tests have turned out negative for anything for a year and a half, I am definitely aware that doesn't mean I'm out of the clear. It worries me but I still don't regret THE CHOICE I MADE. I don't advocate it for others but I also don't feel the need to come on here and preach to everyone about lessons we learned in the 5th grade!!!!!

You know everything about trying to save your M from an A has risks!!! Physically and emotionally. Again we are all adults and we know those risks. I'm not saying that BS's should not be reminded of those risks, but it doesn't have to monopolize a thread.

WE GET IT, IF YOU HAVE SEX WITH YOUR WS YOU MAY GET AN STD. CONDOMS ARE NOT A SUREFIRE WAY OF PROTECTING YOURSELF. THE BEST THING TO DO IS ABSTAIN AND FIND OTHER WAYS TO MEET YOUR WS's EN's. BUT IT IS YOUR CHOICE, YOU ARE AN ADULT WHO NOW KNOWS THE RISKS, YOU ARE NOW EQUIPPED TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.

Now can we please continue on with the original intent of the conversation?????

Mimi - It's good to see you posting again! For what it's worth, I (as one with my own opinion) do NOT think you are misguided on this topic and certainly not "often times."

There is a difference between Sexual Fulfillment and a physical need to get a desire for sex met. You are drawing that distinction.

I also agree with others that the possibility of STD's must be taken into consideration as ONE parameter in whether or not to have sex with a spouse who has been "wayward." The reasoning for that is simple, it is the very same "message" that is, or should be, taught to everyone: "When you have sex with someone you are also having sex with everyone they ever had sex with." AIDS/HIV would be just one extreme example wherein the "partner" might not even know they were infected for a long time after exposure. The biggest "problem" with STD's is that in today's "age" there are several that have no cure. In the past people worried about STD's that DID have a cure, and shots, etc., could be taken to "correct" the problem. Today, we have added ones that do not have a cure.

My simple advice to someone would be to evaluate their own situation and make a choice. We don't usually recommend letting a Wayward Spouse come home without first agreeing to some "ground rules." It is the Betrayed Spouse who determines WHAT those ground rules are to be, and they can be different for each Betrayed Spouse and their own situation. Unlike condoms, one size doesn't fit all, so to speak.

The John Stuart Mill quotation is applicable to this topic as well as to how we judge and speak to others. Each person is going to have to determine for theirself if what they do or say is "evil" and causes injury to someone else.

For me, the recognition is that we all sometimes "cross the line" and engage in hurtful actions and speech, I know I have done so. That is where personal repentance and seeking forgiveness comes into play, coupled with a renewed commitment to try very hard to "not do that again." And that in turn, imho, has a lot to do with one's own relationship with God and trying to conform their own life to one of more and more "Christ-likeness."

In the area of SF following adultery, it seems clear that a truly repentant WS would NOT want to engage in actions with their BS that could cause potential injury. But until that stage is achieved, it would be prudent for the BS to exercise "temporary restraint" or use "extraordinary precautions" to protect not only their own life, but to protect the WS and their "guilt level" when they do reach true repentance. It's one thing to be repentant and sorrowful for having chosen adultery, it's another thing to he saddled with the guilt that one's selfish actions gave the person they love a life threatening problem that CAN'T be eliminated. Some things in life simply can't have a "do over," and we have to live with the consequences.

I guess that's just another reason why it is often said that "recovery isn't for the faint of heart" and "recovery isn't easy, it's a series of ups and downs" (no pun intended).

God bless.

Thank you Star*fish, for elevating the conversation to where it should be.

Wow. I think that this may be one of those posts I may come to regret, but here goes:

I guess that I must have missed where mimi has advocated unsafe sex. I see mimi speaking candidly about her own choices and what worked for *her*. I think that she has been very gracious under heavy fire. And now she is being taken to task retroactively for not asking Steve Harley about SF?

Why not call the show and ask for specifics? Why continually pick on a poster who admits what worked for her and admits she knew the risk? Would it be better for posters to start lying, so as to avoid controversy? The protests are beginning to sound shrill and the whole thing is tedious.

The thrust of this thread seems to be the danger of sex after discovery of the affair. I will say that it is rather naive to think that the main danger of STDs comes after the BS finds that his/her partner has been unfaithful. How often has the BS been exposed for quite some time without realizing it? And I speak as someone who got HPV from my husband, at a time when we were both married and faithful.

Let us not forget that the only truly safe sex is between two virgins who wed and stay faithful to one another. Anything else is a risk of varying degrees. Sex in the absence of marriage is risky, particularly if your partner has been previously sexually active. HPV tests in men are unreliable and the virus can lay dormant in both genders. HIV can show up 6 months after contact.

Viruses are designed to do one thing - spread. They're good at it and have taken advantage of the species' need for procreation.

Mimi's marriage was worth the risk - to her. MEDC, presumeably your son was worth the risk to you.

But to insinuate that posters are desperate....it's just not looking at the whole picture.

This is my opinion. Take it or leave it.

PK

InADaze,


If your're tired of feeling that way, please explore why you do. Yes, you chose to meet this need....but do you also realize that you are also choosing to allow this discussion (which isn't directed at any individual) to trigger personal feelings of guilt and shame? No one here can <make> you feel a certain way simply by expressing a general opinion about how to approach the issue of SF as it relates to infidelity. Why do you think you feel this way when this topic is discussed? Is it possible that if you DO feel this way....your decision might have been more conflicted than you allowed yourself to think about at the time? Is it possible that you weren't as comfortable as you wanted to be? Or that it ressurects your fears from that time? I can't shake the feeling that if you were sure about your decision that this wouldn't be so triggering for you. You aren't an awful or desperate person because you chose to have sex with your WS, but there are alot of new people who come here everyday, and just because you "get it", and you made that choice after weighing the risk, doesn't mean these messages shouldn't be repeated for the benefit of everyone so that they can make informed decisions too.

We ARE adults, and sex is a choice....the discussion is about how to make a WISE choice about resuming sex with a WS that takes both partners into account. It's about how a person can recognize SF as an important need....and still mitigate the risk.

Since one of these causes [of the affair] is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended.

Dr. Harley


"First you have to rebuild non-sexual touch. If you don't have good touch, you don't have anything special. It's also important to have the cheating spouse cleared by a physician before you have sex again."


Dave carder...Torn Asunder