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Would you argue with an drunk alcoholic? A waste of time don't you think? The same goes for a WS under the influence.

I think this is an excellent analogy. Not only is it a waste of time to argue with a drunk alcoholic, the alcoholic is not excused for being drunk either. They are still what they are. But it does help to understand what's going on in their mind for those of us who have to deal with them, be they WS's or drunks.

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RIF and SIL,

THank you for your response but i still disagree. I have never posted on any forum on the internet before and felt this one was a good one but i too like many others think i have changed my mind not that it matters to any of you but i too am going to bow out of MB. I like some of their principles but do not believe in all of them and i do not believe a WS is in a "fog" when they are having an affair.

Like Krazy said i think it is harder to have an affair than it is to remain faithful.

It takes a lot of work on the WS part, and the "weirdness" they go through is dealing with their excitement, guilt, lies, double lives they are leading, selfishness, etc.

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When I had a stroke in 2003 - my husband had a hard time understanding my impairment.

My brain was damaged and my thought processes were slow like molasses sometimes, and it often took me a long time to read things.

But I looked just fine. Nothing outwardly had changed. I had absolutely no physical indication that I had any kind of trauma.

It was frustrating for my husband - he KNEW intellectually that I was impaired, but he couldn't see it. It was a hard hard hard adjustment for him, getting used to the fact that while I looked like the old BR...I was not the same.

The same goes for a WS. They look like the person you married. You can't SEE the changes. You KNOW they are changed, but its hard not to be frustrated when you don't get the behavior you expect or are used to.

I was fogged during those early days after my stroke. I just was not capable of thinking and speaking clearly.

I remember one day - after I had returned to work - that I was having a conversation with someone - and all of a sudden, this person looked at me like I was from another planet. Alien.

I had just broken into gibberish mid conversation and didn't even realize it until I saw her face. I have often thought, it was not unlike a WS babbling at a BS.

Now, I didn't have a choice about the stroke. A WS does have a choice about the affair. The alcoholic has a choice to drink.

Regardless of the responsibility, the result is the same.

Alien Fog.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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You see...this board is full of FWS's and BS's with WS's & FWS's MOST/MANY of whom believed, with every speck of their fiber that they too, were impervious to infidelity.

Without a plan to avoid it...such thinking is useless to protect you if and when the perfect storm comes a knocking.

On another point...typically (not always) the initial CHOICE is not to have sex with someone besides your spouse. It's not that simple. Unlike your decision NOT to have a revenge affair. Most waywards don't jump straight off the cliff. They make a series of simple choices, the beginning ones, quite innocuous. Stuff like deciding to log into classmates.com and communicate with an old lover, googling an high school sweetheart, or even playing cards alone with a neighbor or co-worker. The next choice is to exchange emails with such person progressing to ever more revealling and intimate emails. Then the phone calls and text messaging begin. All simple choices NOT seemingly related to infidelity to most in the world, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT SUSCEPTIBLE. Feelings grow...intimacies are exchanged in ever increasing amounts. Spouses are bad mouthed. Yada, yada, yada...emotional affair two seconds away from a physical affair. It's all pretty much spelled out in the 15 steps to infian delity on the "Newly Betrayed Spouses" thread on Just Found Out.

My point, I guess, is MOST waywards DON'T make a choice to commit physical adultery PRIOR to already being neck deep in the fog.

IT DOESN'T EXCUSE IT...JUST EXPLAINS IT AND IT COULD HAVE AND STILL COULD HAPPEN TO ANY ONE OF US.

I REPEAT....ANY...ONE...OF...US.

MrW ... IMHO you really have your head screwed on straight ... I could not have said it any better!

I ABSOLUTELY am one of those FWS who would've considered myself immune to my actions and would've defended that statement vehemently but that's where the danger was ... I did not consider myself vulnerable ... did not pay attention to the cues, did not set safe boundaries to protect myself.

Very well stated post, MrW.

The act of dismissing the A, whether it be the WS/BS falling back on "fog" or minimizing the A to just f'ing around for the sake of it leaves the M open to another A.

Explaining doesn't mean excusing.

The A is a mere symptom of the disease ... treating the symptom alone will not cure the disease.

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When I had a stroke in 2003 - my husband had a hard time understanding my impairment.

My brain was damaged and my thought processes were slow like molasses sometimes, and it often took me a long time to read things.

But I looked just fine. Nothing outwardly had changed. I had absolutely no physical indication that I had any kind of trauma.

It was frustrating for my husband - he KNEW intellectually that I was impaired, but he couldn't see it. It was a hard hard hard adjustment for him, getting used to the fact that while I looked like the old BR...I was not the same.

The same goes for a WS. They look like the person you married. You can't SEE the changes. You KNOW they are changed, but its hard not to be frustrated when you don't get the behavior you expect or are used to.

I was fogged during those early days after my stroke. I just was not capable of thinking and speaking clearly.

I remember one day - after I had returned to work - that I was having a conversation with someone - and all of a sudden, this person looked at me like I was from another planet. Alien.

I had just broken into gibberish mid conversation and didn't even realize it until I saw her face. I have often thought, it was not unlike a WS babbling at a BS.

Now, I didn't have a choice about the stroke. A WS does have a choice about the affair. The alcoholic has a choice to drink.

Regardless of the responsibility, the result is the same.

Alien Fog.

IMO this is TOTALLY different. You had a physical reason for your "Alien Fog" as you put it. A WS does not have a physical reason for their hurtful words and actions. I feel they do it because they want to no other reason. And "fogspeak" can not justify any of the hurtful things they say. They were said and NOTHING can change that.

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Hi S_C,

After Mrs. RIF confessed her remaining A's to me in Dec 2000, I was determined to rebuild.

I didn't find MB until 2002. I read Surviving An Affair and to be honest, I didn't like it one bit. At the time, I felt that SAA let the WS off too easy...

The book that our MC gave us was Torn Asunder by Dave Carder... that book really helped me when I was going trough the early rebuilding stages...

MB isn't a perfect place... those of us that post here are all at very different places as far as rebuilding goes. I do hope that you will continue to read and post here because I don't believe that you will find a better forum to discuss A's and how to deal with them.

Semper Fi,

RIF


Me, BS

Her, Forgiven

Married Dec 86

Multiple A's that ended '90

Rebuilding In Faith since then...

Currently deployed to Iraq, but TEXAS is Home!
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Still Crazy

We're not asking you to agree with everything you read; we're asking you to be open to learning and recovering. I can't express how much I KNOW where you are right now. I completely get it. If there was some other word that I could use to convey how much I understand, I would use it.

Quote
Like Krazy said i think it is harder to have an affair than it is to remain faithful.


I think what I have been getting at is this. How would you KNOW that one is harder than the other? I, personally feel that it takes OODLES more work to remain faithful and true than it ever does to do what FEELS good, even though it's not RIGHT. My personal feeling.

Why not stick around and explore if your ideals and beliefs change over time, while you personally recover?

I have never been an infidel, so I have NO idea how they think, feel, whatever. I assume nothing about their state of mind. I may try to explain it's affect on me and how their state APPEARS, by giving it a name, like fog, but I won't understand it fully, just as the WS will NEVER understand the things that I have suffered and learned, as a consequence of their infidelity, followed by lies and personal assaults to myself and my child.

I would hate for you to bow out right now, if you do want a recovered marriage, just because we don't all agree. We are all in different places in recovery, or in the cycle that happens when an A occurs.

I should probably take some time to read your thread before making any assumptions, though; so that's what I'll do.

I hope you'll stick around.


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but thats the whole point SC.

No one is justifying it.

It's just a WHY.

If I drink, I can't drive.

If I cheat, I can't do marriage.

In both cases, the brain is impaired.

How the brain got impaired is entirely the responsibility of the drinker or the cheater.

But regardless, you can't just ignore it, you don't argue with a drunk or a cheater - its NOT productive.

My husband tried to interact with me - as he would a normal person. He tried to interact with me as he was used to - which was not productive and lead to frustration.

No, I didn't have a choice and the drinker and the cheater did.

It doesn't matter - the brain fog was still there and the effect still very real.

It doesn't excuse. It doesn't justify. It is just a CONSEQUENCE.


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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I still disagree. I do not believe in "fog" at all it was a choice and simply a choice. I have been in the position to make that choice myself in the beginning of our M and chose not to.

I will never believe that my FWH had any sort of endorphins or anything else going in while he was having his A. He was being selfish that is it period. He was putting himself before anything else. It was simply his choice at that time in his life. Any M person should NEVER put themselves in the positon to have an A anyway. If they are so unhappy in the M and their EN are not being met you should let your S know and give them the option of changing. If they do not then you should get out of the M not have an A.

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All those things are true. He was selfish and he made a choice. He should not have put himself in that position.

EVERYONE here agrees with that.

I may not like that a drunk stumbles around unable to speak or act coherently after making a choice to drink - but it is still real.

No one has said, the Fog Made Him Do It.

He Chose to Cheat. Now He is Fogged.

He Chose to Drink. Now He is Drunk.


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I do NOT believe in FOG. So i do not believe that he is "fogged". It was his choice at the time of his A. It was his choice and actions not "fog", not drunkeness, his choice.

"fog" has nothing to do with it. He chose to have an A. He chose to let what the OW said to him met his EN, he chose to continue letting her meet his EN. No "fog" choice. His words during his A was not out of some "fog" they were his feelings at the time.

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Any M person should NEVER put themselves in the positon to have an A anyway.

I think that's easier to say than to do. It's likely that the more impervious someone feels to having an A, the more likely they would expose themselves to situations where an A might develop - because they think that they're somehow immune.

Out of all of the mess that's emerged from my FWW's A, I've come to realise a few things. For one, I don't believe myself immune to having an A. Yes, I'm not going to make the choice of deliberately going to scr*w another woman, I know that, but I also know that As usually develop as a series of very small steps rather than great big ones, and some of those initial steps can be so small that you don't even realise that that you're taking them, until the pull becomes too strong.

ENs are funny things. In fact I think that it's probably my combination of top ENs with my type of personality, rather than anything else, that's mostly kept me out of trouble so far. My top ENs are Openness and Honest and Affection, followed by SF, but I'm not a very outgoing person, so I think it would be near impossible for anyone to be able to meet my prime ENs outside of my M unless I really went looking for something like that. My FWW on the other hand, her top ENs are Admiration followed by Conversation, and the combination of that and her personality made it much easier for someone else to meet her ENs, if they wanted to. And unfortunately, she met a "player" who knew how to do just that.


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SC... I too feel much the same way as you.
With my background, I liken infidelity to crime.
It takes premeditated acts to have an affair. No one in the history of mankind has ever mistakenly fallen on another person and had their genitals magically wind up together.
Continuing an affair is also a premeditated intentional act. It requires malice of forethought. There are lies to cover ones tracks...actions taken to hide their true intent from others.
I believe infidelity is and should be considered a crime. If it were, the acts would be considered criminal not from negligence or recklessness...but from intent. And bottom line is, that's the bottom line IMHO.
A fog being compared to a physical reaction of drunkenness is misleading. Same with drug addiction. People are physically impaired when on these mind altering substances...their judgment is clinically impaired and they are unable to perform most tasks well. A person in an affair is likely holding down a job, being a parent, driving a car...and thinking well enough to be able to conjure up enough lies to fool friends/family and loved ones regarding their true activities. That doesn't sound like foggy thinking to me...it sounds like the mind of a person bereft of morals and integrity...no matter what their persona APPEARED to be prior to the affair.

JMHO.

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I still disagree, I think it is easier to remain faithful.

Early on in our M my H was not very good at letting me know he found me attractive. I had a co-worker (who knew i was married) seek me out all of the time and try to come on to me, telling me all the things that i desparately wanted my H to tell me. This OP was filling my EN for that. What did i do i told my H about it. How this OP made me feel and that i wanted my H to make me feel that way and not this OP. To me that was harder than taking the next step with the OP. Taking the next step with the OP would have been easy.

I try to always make sure that i am not in the position where some one can meet my EN besides my H. I do not discuss EN with members of the opposite sex period that is off limits. I bring up my H and children in ANY and ALL conversations i have with any members of the opposite sex.

IMO there is no such thing as FOG. It is choice and choice only.

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SC... I too feel much the same way as you.
With my background, I liken infidelity to crime.
It takes premeditated acts to have an affair. No one in the history of mankind has ever mistakenly fallen on another person and had their genitals magically wind up together.
Continuing an affair is also a premeditated intentional act. It requires malice of forethought. There are lies to cover ones tracks...actions taken to hide their true intent from others.
I believe infidelity is and should be considered a crime. If it were, the acts would be considered criminal not from negligence or recklessness...but from intent. And bottom line is, that's the bottom line IMHO.
A fog being compared to a physical reaction of drunkenness is misleading. Same with drug addiction. People are physically impaired when on these mind altering substances...their judgment is clinically impaired and they are unable to perform most tasks well. A person in an affair is likely holding down a job, being a parent, driving a car...and thinking well enough to be able to conjure up enough lies to fool friends/family and loved ones regarding their true activities. That doesn't sound like foggy thinking to me...it sounds like the mind of a person bereft of morals and integrity...no matter what their persona APPEARED to be prior to the affair.

JMHO.

Totally agree MEDC!!!!

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now I will qualify my statement a bit to account for a one time act by a drunk...or otherwise impaired spouse. That could be considered reckless given the right circumstances.

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I try to always make sure that i am not in the position where some one can meet my EN besides my H. I do not discuss EN with members of the opposite sex period that is off limits. I bring up my H and children in ANY and ALL conversations i have with any members of the opposite sex.

It sounds like you have set some very sensible and well defined boundaries for yourself ... unfortunately some of us who would have considered ourselves immune to making bad choices did not.

Believe in the "fog" term or not ... I hope you remain open to the idea that there were underlying reasons that enabled your S to make bad choices (other than just being an immoral scumbag) and that focussing on those is the key to recovery and the best defense to another A.

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Fog is the result of choices.

Fog does not mean that one does not have a choice.

Please show me even one place on this thread where someone has said that WSes are fogged and not able to choose? Or that fog made them do it?

Every single person here agrees it is a choice, a selfish, premeditated choice.

And because a WS chooses to go there, their thinking and rationale becomes distorted and bizarre.

Thats ALL anyone is saying. Not one person here has said that FOG is the WHY that the affair happened.


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SC...looking forward it is better to focus on the person your spouse has become or is becoming, rather than a person that allowed this to happen. people can change for the better and I believe that a FWS can make a wonderful partner if you both are on the same page moving forward.

Ste your goals and boundaries and develop a plan to reach them with your spouse. If they come along for the ride...terrific...if not, you have grown and should leave the "dead wood" behind you.

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My dear husband described it like this AFTER everything was over and we reconciled:

1. PM, it was like I was in a trance, like everything was unreal." (the fog)

2. I KNEW what I was doing and the choices I was making were wrong but I liked the way it made me feel. (sounds like entitlement to me)

3. But once I did it, I couldn't stop. (sounds like an addiction to me)

4. It's like some force took over my life. (the powers of darkness QUICKLY step in at the slightest crack)

My FWH did not know about MB or "the fog". So fog, smog... It JUST a tool to DESCRIBE something intangible.

PM's posts is a pretty accurate description of what I felt during the A.

Sometimes you don't know what a person was feeling/thinking until you walk a mile in their shoes.

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