If there were no fog, then we could talk to our betrayers with reason and logic and real emotion...and some of us could actually succeed in talking a WS home.

You can not reason with someone under the influence.

BR...I say it continues to be a premeditated choice...every single time. That their rational thinking is on display by their ability to function/lie etc. Liken it to a crime where a person pleads insanity. One of the FIRST things they look at is ...was there an attempt to hide the act? If so, that is the action of a sane mind...no impairment in decision making. Insanity defense tossed.

An attempt to hide evidence of a crime evinces awareness that the act is legally wrong.

IMO WSs thinking becomes distorted and bizarre because of the lies that they are telling, the excitement they feel, the guilt they feel, and everything else that goes into an affair. It has nothing to do with any chemical imbalance in their brain or their inability to think properly it has everything to do with their feelings at the time and they do not care about anything except their feelings at the time. They want what they want and it does not matter how they get it as long as they get it.

MEDC that is what i am trying to do only i am trying to get my FWH to come on the ride with me but right now he just can't seem to find the car i guess.

We both have looked at the underlying reasons behind the A. Some of which were mine to own and some of which were his to own. And our M is getting better because of it but it has a long way to go. But how are my boundaries so hard to follow IMO it is just the way everyone should think about their M unless they do not want to be M. You just should not put yourself in the situation and if you do then what you do afterwards is choice not "fog".

Yes. Absolutely! You've nailed it ... that is exactly what a WS is thinking ... to the point of utter irrationality (is that a word??)

Sounds exactly like the behaviour of someone hooked on any other addiction ... drugs, alcohol, gambling ... pick your vice the behaviours are all the same. It is about the "fix" and most if not all involve lying to themselves and those around them ... 100% selfish and 100% by choice ... it's not that they lack ability to choose ... they lack ability to choose well.

medc, I agree with you 100% that it is a premeditated choice every single time.

holey moley.

I believe....no, I KNOW...that alcoholics premediate their drinking.

The FOG explains the distorted thinking that LEADS to the choice, but its still not an excuse.

Murder is murder, even if the murderer has convinced himself that he is justified.

Cheating is still cheating, even if the betrayer has convinced himself that it's justified.

Most people don't wake up and say: I think I'll cheat today.

They wake up and go about their days, and make small choices that spiral into bigger choices, that require constant repositioning of values.

(I'll just flirt a little in jest with a member of the opposite sex...it doesn't hurt anyone! I'm angry with my spouse and I have the right to vent to someone! ...It's just lunch...It's just dinner...I have the right ot have friends!...

Until one day: "It's just oral sex, its not intercourse...i have the right to feel good! It depends on the meaning of "IS"!)

That fogged thinking develops as a result of bad choices, and the need of the WS to justify themselves.

At the point the BS discovers the affair, the WS is no longer the person they married.

And yes they can CHOOSE at anytime to stop.

But a BS can NOT convince them to do so because you can not rationalize based on values and logic. That's not the world the WS lives in anymore.

I still disagree. It is still their choice and they chose to make the wrong one because they want to no other reason it makes them feel good. it has nothing to do with an addiction it has everything to do with being selfish and wanting what they want like a little child.

Ther are many things i have wanted in life but i have not hurt anyone to get what i wanted.

[quoteWe both have looked at the underlying reasons behind the A. Some of which were mine to own and some of which were his to own. And our M is getting better because of it but it has a long way to go. But how are my boundaries so hard to follow IMO it is just the way everyone should think about their M unless they do not want to be M. You just should not put yourself in the situation and if you do then what you do afterwards is choice not "fog". [/quote]

I think we're splitting hairs trying to define something that by is nature is undefinable ...

As a WS I agree with you that I landed there by choice. Problem was I did not have the same boundaries that you do (and I applaud you for that BTW) in part because I truly believed I would never go there so "what's the harm in speaking with OW about my problems, or likes, etc. ... after all it won't go anywhere" ... as others have said it is choice but in the beginning the choices seem innocent and so insignificant you don't even realize you made the choice ... until you get hooked and then the choices become conscious to continue ... lie ... deceive ... fueled by the need for the fix.

They are absolutely choices made ... but something allows the WS to make up irrational reasons to make those choices and self-justify their actions.

Disagree with this too it is a choice a rational choice that they made to vent to the OP, to have dinner with the OP, it is a choice no fog made them chose. They are simply selfish. If you make the first choice to vent to a memeber of the opposite sex you know full well what you are doing. If you make a choice to ahve dinner you know full well waht you are doing and you continue to make that CHOICE.

rational thought is possible for the WS...in fact it is demonstrated by their very actions where reason is necessary (work, home, actively lying). Immorality just rules the day.

You are not able to "rationalize based on values and logic" only because the WS chooses to not converse in that way since it would mean they would have to take responsibility for what they have done. I have seen it with criminals a million times...they KNOW what they are doing...they KNOW it is wrong...the only reason you can't rationalize with them is because they don't WANT to stop.

Infidels are no different than criminals.

SC - you say your H is remorseful. Are you sure? He discounts your feeelings very easily and threatens to leave you if you try to discuss it with him.

I personally believe that some affairs can come from a chemical imbalance in the brain. Not all mind you. Some people are just truly selfish and not good relationship material. They cheat on anyone they are invovled with.

I agree with those here who are saying the "fog" isn't meant to be an excuse to let the WS off. It's a good description of the mindset the WS is experiencing during that time.

Did I know I was doing wrong, he77 yes! Did I feel extreme guilt, he77 yes! That still didn't stop me, I CRAVED the high I felt from interactions with the OM. I think MrsW described the feelings it can cause pretty well.

Now whether or not you personally believe it is up to you. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders about keeping your boundaries. NOW I am like that. I keep my relationships with the opposite sex very professional (at work and such) and I DO NOT discuss my marriage with them.

I have an addictive personality. I grew up with an alchoholic father. Luckily I managed to kick cigarette smoking when I had my oldest child. I struggled with not going back to it. When I have to take pain medications, I intentionally wean myself quickly with my H's aide. I do not want to become addicted to ANYTHING if possible.

I too wish you would stick around and read more with an open mind. You don't have to agree with everything that is said here.

Actually there IS a physical reason.

Mind/body/spirit are connected and affect each other.

Just as with ANY addiction there is a physiological aspect which CHANGES the neurochemistry. Addicts and the mentally ill EXPERIENCE life differently than sane healthy people do.

I think that you may be misunderstanding the concept in such a way as to think we are saying that a WS is HELPLESS and a victim of brain trauma...it is more complicated and insidious than that.

We are an ill disciplined generation. Bunch of barbarians and no doubt about it. We have all been trained from the crib to allow our emotions to rule us and to believe that not only are we entitled to have what we want we are entitled to have it right now. NOW!

Since this collides rather smartly with reality there are such an awful of people with "emotional problems" that have more to do with immaturity than with genuine brain chemistry
imbalances.

Brain chemistry affects behavior...and behavior affects brain chemistry.

So the person with no self control expresses genuine rage and loss of control...but they are only slaves to that emotion because they give themselves permission to be.

There is will involved.

Likewise a person slips into an extremely juvenile and selfish and entitled behavior pattern one step at a time.

They feel an attraction or they feel a desire to be in a high risk environment. There has to be a belief that they are entitled to follow those feelings to the next step and the next. There has to be a belief that a marriage should end because they don't FEEL like it anymore. This is comparable to gluttony.

People who are less susceptable to THAT end of the stick are predictably MORE susceptable to the other end.

That'd be you and me. [waves a chagrined hello]

The ones who are faithfull and principled with our teeth gritted and our faces long and no joy in our hearts.

We are such a pleasure to be around in our self pity and resentfull sacrifice and haughtiness. So likeable and charming and considerate. So much fun.

THAT is a discipline problem also.

You see..there is nothing ATTRACTIVE about principles served on that platter. Doing something resentfully is DEFIANCE and pridefullness and self righteousness.

There is no humility in that perception. There is no grace and there is no recognition that your offenses counted just as much.

Your critical and condemning spirit makes you hard to love up close even if you are easy to admire from a distance. Your faithfullness is based on what you HAVEN'T done rather than what you have done or how you have done it.

And you chose ALL of those things. Freely. One at a time over and over.

So are you just a worthless cold blooded jerk or is it possible that some of your perceptions and expectations have led you into a set of behaviors that have created more damage in your life than you ever could have predicted?

When you invalidate your spouse [the chant of the invalidated is thus..."I'm always wrong"...and so an invalidator aka right fighter is easy to spot in their own descriptions of their interactions] you cut off your nose to spite your face.

Whatever stupid, petty, superficial thing you were debating is LESS important than showing care and respect to your spouse.

Tearing down your own house to be right about a spoon is extremely foolish behavior. Too bad it doesn't LOOK as foolish when you are in the midst of it. Too bad it ISN'T as obvious and easily avoided as going to a bar or changing your job to be away from an OP.

So when your H said those things to you it really really HURT because it confirmed some of your worst fears didn't it? When he wanted someone more than you and left you he ripped old scabs right clean off didn't he?

The reverse is also predictably true.

YES, he was behaving like a selfish jerk, an adulterer, an unfaithfull husband who did something terrible and hurt you badly.

Is that the WHOLE truth though? Is your OWN perception not subject to some brain edits and history rewrites as well? Are YOU not now focussing on the negative and unflattering aspects of his personality just as surely as he did yours?

You see...you are not getting this reaction from OTHER betrayed spouses several years into recovery because we have no empathy for you...but because we can see YOUR fog just as clearly as we can see a WSs. Maybe even MORESO for having experienced it personally.

And just like a WS you are as defiant and angry and contentious and resistant to what will ACTUALLY help you truly recover.

Your own attitude is in your way and no one can move it but you.

Everything I have posted here you will likely disagree with. You will say I have it all wrong. You will say I don't know you and presume too much.

So just go right ahead and put your fingers in your ears and puff out your cheeks and stomp your feet secure in your victimhood until you get tired of sitting alone and uncared for...chances are you are going to walk at least a few more miles in this fog of bitterness unwilling to come out.

Chances are that you are going to HATE me after reading this. Just like WSs do. Because I have held a mirror up to your face and let you see what you have been showing me. I have let you see that it is unattractive when you already feel so insecure about your desireability.

If you stick around and face the hard truths about your own character flaws and bad habits you will have the opportunity to grow into a more mature, more confident, more loving and lovable person than you are today.


Five years ago I WAS you. Everything you have written has already been said before you and before me. These are not NEW arguments or observations. Simple use of the search function will show you threads that go for pages and pages showing people in your position in recovery all saying the same things.

Because of that I have hesitated to even post on the issue.

I'm not sure you CAN just suddenly overcome character flaws that you might not even be aware of or convinced of. Since they warp your perceptions they change how you view things...you and I are looking on the same objects with very different eyes.

Maybe you HAVE to go kicking and screaming through this process of years. Maybe you have to reach your own conclusions in due time. After all my perceptions changed a little at a time and are still in the process of changing today.

Still...many people have helped me by putting me in conflict when I didn't appreciate it. They planted seeds and did so without reward so perhaps I can pay it foreward by doing likewise.

The way to encourage your FWS to WANT to participate is to have a merry and joyfull heart. To be someone he WANTS to be around. Someone he feels safe to disagree with.

If things like POJA sound like a forced death march then it quite evident he anticipates that you will use it to manipulate him.

Model and demonstrate rather than demand. MB principles are founded on the concept that when you change YOUR dance steps it changes everything. You will find it more difficult than you could ever imagine to require the level of self control and self discipline from YOU that you could casually expect from HIM.

A lot of the behaviors that are considered love busters are INTERNAL.

Let me give an example.

You must be EMOTIONALLY HONEST...and you must not DISRESPECTFULLY JUDGE.

So you can't DJ in private in your mind and still claim that you are being honest. You aren't. And those DJs are coloring your feelings and spilling out all over the place.

So then you are either abusing/controlling via disrespect or dishonesty.

If you judge yourself as harshly as you would judge him that makes you a liar or an abusor or both.

A double edged sword to be sure.

So I suggest just put the principles into practice...lol...or TRY to and learn from your failures. Learn about who you are rather than who you thought you were.

Happiness, enthusiasm, and greatfulness are EXTREMELY attractive qualities. When you can genuinely exhibit them chances are he will WANT what you have got and seek it out. People WANT to be around other people who count their blessings rather than their losses. People who are joyfull and fun. As mimi would say...goddesses.

If not that's HIS problem because you are already happy, enthusiastic, and gratefull.

Your posts communicate a lot of frustration in being unable to MAKE him want what you want him to want...and the harder you push the more he will resist. If in order to be right he has to agree with you..he will not seek to be right. He will defy you even if it means being WRONG.

SHOW him why rather than explain it. Live it.

You really have nothing to lose in doing so.

Ahhhh, you see, SC, this is exactly what we've been discussing. Yes, it makes them FEEL good, and that is why it is LIKENED to the affects of a drug. It makes them FEEL good. Why would they NOT want more of that, especially considering their spouse doesn't make them feel good. Again, not an excuse, but I can see the reasoning making sense to an entitled jacka$$.

YOU may make the choices to avoid these types on interactions, and tell your H about them before they become an affair, but not everybody would do the same, OBVIOUSLY, or we wouldn't have this forum. OR, the spouse being courted by the OP DOES tell their spouse about it, and the spouse ignores their pleas, therefore ignoring their needs, and the OP looks better and better, because it's now obvious that your needs don't matter to your spouse.

As my Aunt would say, somebody's got a bad case of the SHOULDS. No, they SHOULD NOT do what they've done, making these decision to ruin their family's, marriages, jobs, etc, but they do. The only thing that you have power over is yourself, and drawing boundaries for what is acceptable to you in your life, including how others treat you.

Well my H was that way pre A so i am used to it. He is going to leave me every time we get into an argument for the last 24 years (which BTW bothers me badly and i have told him this too). He usually plays the "everything is always his fault" card and then makes me feel bad for even bringing up my feelings so i can not put that on the A.

But i still do not believe that his A was anything more than selfishness and not brought on by some kind of "addiction" it was his CHOICE!!!

You know what this also reminds me of... I became very depressed after a death in my family. I was a mess and my H could not handle it. He treated me as if I had some control over how I felt. I think I had pretty bad PTSD. Everything freaked me out, if the phone rang I came out of my skin, I couldn't watch anything on TV that related to death, I had panic attacks. My H was very unsupportive of me and acted like he was disgusted with me.

Along came OM... I got an endorphin rush from talking to/being with him. It helped me for a while, my focus was off my depression issues. Then, it began to make me worse. I lost a lot of weight. I was a wreck. I admitted my A to my H because I began to realize I wouldn't quit on my own. I did it to FORCE ME to stop. It was rough, I couldn't believe how much pain I had inflicted on him once I snapped out of it, but it was the best thing I could have done for us.

My H finally got on board about my depression and stopped giving me a hard time about going on an anti-D. I took one for a year and a half and I can't tell you how much it helped me. It was like a black cloud was lifted off me. I no longer felt any desire to search out "some thing" to make me "feel better". I felt at peace. It was a life saver.

So if you want to continue to have your "black and white" view on this, that is your right. After this post I won't try to convince you further.

But, be careful of putting people on pedestals. People are flawed, and the chances are high that someday they will let you down.

No i do not hate you noodle but as you figured i do disagree. I do not want my H to have the same thoughts as me i want him to think about me before taking actions. I want him to at least acknowledge that my feelings are different than his. In our M most of the time if my feelings do not match his then I am "wrong" and it is no longer up for discussion. And if i push the issue to at least try to get him to see my point of view then I get the "he is always wrong" thing and then i feel guilty so i just supress them.

Are people who do drugs not being selfish prior to being addicted?

Addiction is REAL. It is neurochemical. Your brain doesn't have "drugs" in it..it has always only the chemicals that ever are present in anyones brain.

The drugs AFFECT the chemicals in the brain.

Affairs AFFECT the chemicals in the brain.

The resulting behavior is very..even remarkably..similar.

It was 100% pure selfishness to take the FIRST step.

It was folly and blindness and delusion in the steps after.

People who steal from their families to buy drugs are not "crazy"...but they are also not themselves. They are not the person they would be without the addiction. Take them away from that for long enough and the personality shifts back.

So unless you are saying that you married a bad man who treated you badly always and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever I think we can quite agree that his personality CHANGED during his affair.

This does not excuse his behavior.

This does not mean he isn't responsible for the consequences.

All it means is that he didn't wake up one fine morning...yawn...and make a rational calculated decision to blow up his life for no reason.

And everyone can SEE that his behavior was leading to a train wreck and he was in denial and self delusion. Sick with selfishness and foolishness and immaturity.

But what happens when you try to LOGIC him out of that behavior?

What happens when you try to reason with it?

FOG happens. Irrational, illogical, obviously flawed reason and they are willing to walk on that undeniably thin ice and call it sound as a pound.

THAT IS NOT SANE BEHAVIOR.

And that is precisely what is meant by the term "fog".

Nice post Noodle... she's just not ready yet.

I will NEVER be ready to believe that he acted that way due to an "addiction". I will never believe that he had no control over the choices he was making. He woke up and lied and went to her house and screwed her, all choices no "addiction" made him do it.