when I use the term fog..
I use it as a description of their chosen antics to rationalize and justify.....their actions....

Most affairees want to exist in the marriage and the affair...

they use great deceipt, self preservation and compartment thinking to do so...

when caught they react like most do when caught..

deny
deflect blame and onus of responsibility
rationalize and
justify...

those are the fog movements....

that does not excuse anything...

but real recovery or and or even real disolvement of a marriage doesn't occur till those things the smokescreen actions and thoughts disperse...and people get real...

it's easier to say fog...than to lay out all this other stuff that it really is

ARK

I agree Ark.

I'm out ...

Perhaps we all just need to agree to disagree. I think all has been said that can be said from both perspectives and trying to convince either is not appearing to be of much benefit ...

SC you seem like a sensible individual ... I hope you stick around and take the parts of this site that make sense to you (and no one says it all has to make sense) and use them in a successful recovery.

lst

No,

He didn't have an affair because he was addicted.

The affair caused the addiction not vice versa.

No one is saying that he had an affair because he was a helpless victim of addiction or insanity.

And yet you persist in HEARING that.

Have you noticed that you are running everything said through that filter and coming out with an answer that has little if anything to do with what is being communicated?

FCF is impling that you aren't ready to recover...not that you aren't ready to accept something we all already know is not true.

Here is a litmus test...when a person [could be BS or WS] starts looking at THEMSELVES to find their piece of the pie..they are ready to begin recovery.

Up until then they just sit in pain and anger and bitterness and grief and criticism.

And maybe they NEED to. Maybe YOU need to.

What's the rush to jump ahead of the healing process?

Maybe you just need to sit here and be mad for awhile before you can get up and walk any further.

The nice thing about that is that you can start a thread specifically FOR that purpose and have some accountability and some laughs and some book recomendations and a chance to discuss and debate the principles and applications in a safer not so under the gun environment.

brilliant.

when the finger pointing stops, recovery happens.

We are trying to give you the *reasons* for why he behaved the way he did.

We are not giving you *excuses* for why he behaved the way he did.

Reasons allow us to understand things so that we can avoid them or prevent them in the future.

Excuses allow people to get away with bad behaviour unscathed.

You are confusing the two.

We are giving you *reasons*.

We are not giving you *excuses.*
Mulan

I don't think she is confusing the two.

I think she gets that people are not excusing the behaviors...that they are trying to explain them.

SC just doesn't accept(I think) the explanation(reasons). I understand his thinking and while I think in many ways she is getting in her own way for recoivery, I think her logic is pretty darn accurate.

Well i CAN agree to that. We can just agree to disagree and as far as looking at myself i do not beleive this has anything to do with my recovery in my M. I do not throw these things in my H's face. I just do not believe there are any reasons or excuses or "fog" or how ever you want to put it for an A. NONE PERIOD!!

Oh, SC, there are reasons...they are not vaild...and while others here may talk about needs and I may point more to lack of character..there are reasons for everything in life.

Actually, more often than not, waywards SUCK at their jobs, being a parent, or even driving a car.

I've seen it here hundreds of times. Accidents (Mrs. W totalled a car), tickets (Mrs. W got 2 in 3 months after having gone 10 + years without one), lost jobs, warnings at work, missed shifts, not to mention the neglected kids. You can typically depend on waywards to be ill-prepared legally for divorce and custody disputes as well....all because they can't even go to the bank and dry cleaners in the same day without exhaustive effort. Their minds are just too messed up.

edited to add: JUST LIKE AN ADDICT: Waywards function ONLY to the extent that their sin (including all their selfish desires of the flesh) necessitates....nothing more, nothing less.

The have to function somewhat or at least appear to function OR THEIR OP MAY DUMP THEM. I'm sure most waywards would tell you they'd rather not function. They'd prefer to sit all day and night on the computer emailing, texting and talking with OP....indefinitely.



I'll say this too. IMO, UNTIL your wayward spouse falls in love with you again you will never get a satisfactory apology and remorse and you, the betrayed spouse, will NEVER fall in love with them again until you get that satisfactory heart-felt apology and remorse.

That's the rub. The BS needs to be lovable FIRST to get the apology (i.e.- the embrace with loving tears saying "I love you and I can't believe what I've done to you and our family and I will spend the rest of my days making it up to you with all my heart...I am SOOOO sorry"). When romantic love strikes the WS, guilt and shame can be transformed into acceptance, remorse and repentence. Then the BS CAN and likely will, fall back in "romantic love" themselves with a truly deserving and repentent FWS.

Somebody has got to first and it ain't gonna be the newly recovering wayward doing it.

Besides...if it don't work...at least you, the BS, end up in the lovable position....healthy, happy and secure in the fact that no matter what..you are going to make it.

Mr. Wondering

You are right MEDC there are ALWAYS reasons and that was not a good choice of words it was just something that was posted by soemone else.

I just wish the WS would give their BS a chance at meeting their EN. We (BS) are not given that option until after the fact.

Heck if i had an A everytime my most important EN were not met it would have been through my whole M. We all let life get in the way sometimes but there are no EXCUSES to have an A IMO.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with this statment.

Well with me that was not the case. He did everything else just fine. He did not have issues at work quite the opposite actually because she was there so he was there more so he could be around her. The ONLY thing that suffered was me and our children during his A.

Thanks MEDC you are correct on this.

Mr. W...that has not been my experience or what I have seen most often on these boards. I see it, just not with the frequency that you have.

I can relate to MrW's post. My personal and professional life definitely suffered due to me being involved in an A. I would say you won't see many WS's on here admitting ALL they did. It only ends up thrown in your face over and over. Most of what you will read here comes from BS's.

Anyway, now that we know what you think SC on this subject, how about your marriage? What would you like to accomplish by being here? You two seem to have some trouble communicating and seeing eye to eye on some issues. Would you at least like to get some help with that?

Anyway, now that we know what you think SC on this subject, how about your marriage? What would you like to accomplish by being here? You two seem to have some trouble communicating and seeing eye to eye on some issues. Would you at least like to get some help with that? [/quote]

Well i would appreciate any help i can get except trying to tell me my H was in a "fog" during his A LOL. Look fro my thread. i have a couple of them.

I would admit anything here-I've pretty much told it all actually...I'd willingly answer any question asked-with Mr. W's consent of course...I don't recall anyone "throwing it in my face"...Wouldn't bother me...Pretty hard to throw something that you openly admit to in your face...Nothing said to me here could possibly be worse than what I did...My own and Mr. W's opinion of me are the only ones that actually matter anyway...

I share because I believe that that kind of transparency allows others to know that they are not alone...I believe that is the most helpful...Testimony is a POWERFUL tool...It affects change...It brings humans together in their struggle and allows them to overcome...

And S_C, I will pray for you and your husband...I know that you say that you don't say these things to him, but I fully believe that they come across in your attitude towards him...I will pray that both of you can set aside pride and come to each other with empathy...I want both of you to heal and recover...Everyone that has posted on this thread wants that for you...((((S_C))))

Mrs. W

And S_C, I will pray for you and your husband...I know that you say that you don't say these things to him, but I fully believe that they come across in your attitude towards him...I will pray that both of you can set aside pride and come to each other with empathy...I want both of you to heal and recover...Everyone that has posted on this thread wants that for you...((((S_C))))

Mrs. W [/quote]

Well i do not think you are right on this either. I am very good at keeping my feelings hid i have done it for 24 years. Eventually things finally sink into his head and then we can discuss them.

S_C...A HUGE part of recovery is being OPEN & HONEST with each other...You shouldn't want or have to hide your feelings from him...HIDING YOUR FEELINGS FOR 24 YEARS IS A MAJOR PART OF THE PROBLEM...THAT is an INTIMACY KILLER...Do you want things to be different?

Mrs. W