Folks, I need advice on how to apply the Marriage Builders priciples when both H and W are guilty. I've lurked for way too long, but here's a quick summary:

3 years ago, I had an EA with young female friend. Denied it to W for 2 years, now admitted and apologized, etc. I accept total blame and hate myself for doing it.

Found out she is having an EA and probably PA starting March (now 8+ months). She blames partly on EN's not being met, partly on revenge (Partly true, but I know does not justify her A). I demanded NC in May, she did NC for a while but fell twice, now is talking to him on work cell phone (which I check behind her back) and has been at his house multiple times in last couple weeks (GPS tracking). She refuses marriage counseling, sees a "counselor" at work who is NOT pro marriage, which make sthings worse.

I'm doing Plan A since March but its getting harder and progress is minimal. Never thought I could do it this long, but I truly love her. I am WAY guilty of not exposing, but its coming soon, and will destroy a lot of the Plan A success so far. So my Q's are:

1) How much effect will exposure have, since she will say "he had an affair too". How do I handle that? I think most people will not put pressure on her once they know that excuse. Plus its a work A, so its gonna cause major problems.

2) how do I confront her about knowing the A is still ongoing, to insist on NC? Checking her work cell phone, and GPS tracker are both pretty major LB's, and probably illegal...

3) Any other advice on how to do MB priciples when the affair goes both ways? it makes it sooooo much more complicated.

Any help is GREATLY appreciated. Stress, guilt, shame, hurt, anger, disgust... well, you all know.....

You said you've been lurking. What have you read? All the columns here? SAA? HNHN?


The same principles still apply, and you have to follow them too.

NC. (Do you still work with or have contact with your OP?)
Exposure. Truth. Truth kills A's, hiding them doesn't. Including the truth about your own A. I think you have to be willing to face the music yourself, too. And when you expose, especially to family, you might want to get the jump on her by telling them about your own EA at the same time.

"We've both been dealing with infidelity in our marriage. I want to stop it and save our marriage."

Be willing to give just as many true (don't minimize your own stuff, it will also minimize hers) details about your own A, and what you're doing/have done to fix the problem as you are about hers and the problem she's creating.


You don't have to reveal sources of information. You could go by when the GPS says she's at OM's and take some pictures. Let her think that PI took them or something. She doesn't have to know where they came from. And exposing to her employer, including the line that she's using her work phone to carry out this A, might be ehlpful. You may want to take some pictures of the screen in case you eventually need proof, although as soon as you tip that hand, you probably won't have access to that source of information anymore.

-AmI.

There is nothing you can do today about the A you had, except for being the best husband you can be.

However, that's for naught with your W currently in an A.

You must use Harley's MB principals to stop the A, then both of you (once the affair is over and NC is in place) need to use the Harley's for marriage building.

Your first step is exposure. Gather all the evidence you can, make hard copies for ultra safe storage, then confront your W with all you have. Do NOT give up your sources of information, so you can continue to monitor her activities, and hopefully, after exposure, insure NC is in place.

Read all you can about Plan A. Apologize for your shortcomings in the marriage, and vow to do the work to become her dream husband. Find the Emotional Needs questionairre and both of you fill it out, so you'll know what EN's of her's you aren't meeting. Until then, assume she needs admiration and conversation.

Plan the exposure, and do it all in one fell swoop. No advance warning to anyone, and don't threaten it in advance. Otherwise the waywards will concoct a story about you being a crazy, jealous husband who is having false visions of an affair.

Your most important exposure is to the OM's wife. She can be your best ally in this process.

Remember to expose out of love for your wife, not out of vengence. Everyone you tell should be people who your W loves and respects. People who should be allies of your marriage, who would help convince her the affair is wrong.

Expect a firestorm of anger from her following exposure, and practice your response to her, that you love her and you are only doing what is necessary to save your marriage.

Your marriage will require a lot of work once the affair is over, but to get to that point, the A she's currently in has to be stopped.

Keep posting and asking questions and these forums will lead you along the path to saving your marriage with fewer mistakes.

SD

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. You will both need to get tested for STD's if you are being intimate.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I am preparing the Tsunami of exposure. It is definitely going to be a firestorm of anger. Any more suggestions on how to handle that?? She has an extremely hard time forgiving, in general, and I am very worried about this.

Friday she saw her "counselor" (who is not at all pro-marraige), and she is pressing me for time apart starting immediately, she needs time, she feels smothered, yada yada yada. i asid I am not leaving cuz i love you, I love our kids, and I am not quitting on our family. Need help here too, she is pushing VERY hard (with counselor as her "expert") for time apart. i told he rif she wants to leave she should, but she refuses (luckily).

Post your exposure plans here to be vetted. If doing it by email or post mail, the more succinct the better. You can save your marriage!

Have you read the links on the Board? Go over to the right and check Love Busters, etc.

JUST DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOME. If anyone leaves, have it be HER, not YOU!!! Don't for one second even agree to it.

Tattered and worn down... Losing all hope. Scared to expose now, thinking its the worst possible time.

She is insisting I leave. I refused and reassured her that I love her, and I love our kids and family, and that I am trying to save our marriage. She outright lies to my face about, claiming the affair was over months ago. I have no legal way to show her proof that I know she is still seeing him. She went 3 weeks with NC, I had hope, but then last night she called him on her work phone, which is technically illegal for me to access. How can I bust her and tell her I know she is talking to him??!??!?

Please post links or examples of exposure letters. I can barely think straight to compose my own.

Sweet Guy Lose 69,

First,
Don't loose heart my man.
This is Hard stuff .....especially at the stage your at.

Next,
you NEVER have to reveal your sources as to how you KNOW what You Know.

You simply state that you do Know x y z and let it be that.

Of course the Next Question from every WS is "well HOW do you Know"?

But all that is an attempt to do is Discover your Source so they can either shut it down OR find a way to come up with a story/lie to cover for it.

She's had the edge in power [information] .....and guess what? She wants to keep it that way.
Flip the switch and let her be the one to be uncomfortable and wonder for a change.

Truly you can bust her already.
Simpy tell her you know she's had contact, (state it as a matter of fact)-- then skip right to What is going to happen because of it?
Keep the focus on what she's doing [lying/deception] & how your marriage can NEVER heal until she goes NC and gives it a fighting chance.

When she attempts to push the conversation to the (how do you know part) .....again say "Fact is I do know, {to lie and deny will only get you another inch on your nose honey} and now lets move TO YOU and the infidelity issues" -- thereby Not letting her muddy the discussion with HOW it is your finding out her dirty little secret life.

HOW you are finding out is unimportant (to the overall marriage) ..however, WHAT she is doing most certainly is.
Keep the focus on HER and do not permit her to use the Trick of going off topic and fighting about OTHER issues.
(Which she most certainly will at least Try to do).

Remember she wants YOU on the defensive, so she doesn't have to be.
I know its tough, but do your best to keep your emotions in check so she can't play on them and get you to let the issue be about you {instead of her}, just because your in such an emotional state.

And yes listen to the others,
do not LEAVE your home.........if she wants to GO you cannot stop her, but make it her choice and Prove to her that you Want to be in this marriage regardless of what she's putting you through.

dead on top rope...

who cares how you know it..

you know it
she knows it...

you expose
you do plan A..and I don't understand how you can be in plan A since March...that's way way too long my man....
you realize that's nine months...
it would have sucked the life right out of ya...

where's the plan b...

do you have a lawyer....
you need one to see what your rights on going for custody...and for blocking exposure of OM to your children...

you need those ducks lined up....

how old are the children...

she says the affair is over...

you shake your head and say..
dear I know for a fact that is not true...and then walk away...

what do you mean by exposure letter...

ARK

I would suggest that you contact an attorney immediately and find out what your best legal options are if your wife tries to have you removed from your home. See if there is any way you can protect yourself. Do any of your family members live near you?

Men really are on the short end of the stick when it comes to being able to stay in the family home if the wife gets determined and is unethical enough to get you removed for no real reason.

Is the other man married? Does she have family (parents, siblings)?

Everyone, thanks for your help. God I need the support today, sooooo stressed.

So far I have refused to leave. its an emotional roller coaster that is killing me. She is fence sitting/cake eating.

I busted her last night… did it as you all suggested, gently but firmly, I tried my best not to use LB’s and control my emotions. I did fairly good but not perfect…. She says she is done, there is nothing left. She slept on the couch for a hile but did eventually sleep in the same bed. She has soooo much hurt and pain inside, from the EA I had 2 years ago, plus she just lost all custody of her daughter in a court battle with her previous ex. She is so stressed she is shutting everyone out including me. I don’t know if she’ll ever let me back in, she has the hardest time that I have ever seen forgiving people and letting them back in. Even me…

The other man is not married. Can’t find his ex-wife…. I have some family within 1-3 hrs but no one close to stay with. Her family is not here either. The children are from previous marriage so custody is not an issue, but they will be devastated. I know my legal ins and outs…. It’s the emotional help I need.

I know I have Plan A’ed longer than 6 months but I am trying to be strong. We’ve made huge progress at times so I stuck with it, but then after a while she slips back. I was hoping to get some examples of what so say in emails for Exposure… or should I do it by phone…. Still what to say? I had an EA which is long over but I can see I hurt her really bad, she is still doing the EA/PA. Exposure is just gonn abe so F’ed up since we are both guilty, and both were work affairs…. We could BOTH get fired…. sighs

Update - the following is our email exchange from this morning, please help with suggestions??? Am I doing ANYTHING right???

Her:
It is my opinion that you are attempting to cast blame every where else except for where it should be cast. Yes, you've apologized up and down for (name removed - OW) - that doesn't change the fact it happened nor does it change the fact that until (name removed - OM) came around you wouldn't/couldn't see what you'd done. By that time - you had already shut my feelings toward you down as I've said to you many times. You say you're fighting for your family - I believe that you are acting in a passive aggressive mode by attempting to slowly degrade my strength until I give in to you and your way. You know - I find it ironic how on Sunday you said you're sick of being lied to..... So am I!

Me:
I know I've hurt you and I'm going to make it up to you. I take full responsibility for allowing myself to become too close to another female friend. If I understand what you are saying, you are saying you feel as if I am not hearing you, not listening to you, and slowly trying to wear you down. I'm not trying to wear you down, I'm trying to be here for you. I'm trying to comfort you because even despite everything thats happened, I love you. I am completely committed to our marriage, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to heal our marriage. I shouldn't have done it for any reason. I made a bad choice. I know you're angry at me because I have hurt you, and I'm sorry I hurt you.

Her:
We're on completely opposite sides. I'm angry - you're damned right I'm angry! You have the audacity to state you're sick of the lies when you yourself are doing it. Wait - that must not count because you're doing it, right? You took full responsibility well over a year later and until then you completely defended your actions as acceptable, and faulting me for not understanding. I understood. I understood that if I wanted you in my life I had to allow you to hurt me. Been there - done that - not again. The wall went up. You refused to hear me until it was too late. I've told you before - stay away from (Other Man) and stay away from (Other Man)'s house. That's not right. You have overstepped your bounds. Stop patronizing me.

Me: I know it took me a long time to realize how much I had hurt you, and I am completely responsible for that. I am committed to staying married within a framework of us both assuming a fair share of our own responsibility for the problems and the solution. I am not overstepping my bounds. I am fighting to save our marriage. Having this other person involved is definitely overstepping the bounds of our marriage. I know you are very angry, how do you think I feel?

I shouldn't have put in that last line... dammit. Its already sent so I can't change it now.

If your EA was two years ago, it is a little late for you to be fired for it. Do you still work with the OW. IF you do, that is a big part of your problem.

Who

The OW I had an EA with is long gone. She was only here for 9 weeks. She now lives 3 states away, I have NC and will keep it that way. I could still get in huge trouble for it.

My WW's OM works with her, same company different department. She claims "we have to talk because of work", "We only talk abotu work", "You can't see my work cell phone because of privacy regs", yada yada yada. They had PA, I busted her on it last night. If I expose her at work, she will get in huge trouble, probably ruin an 18 year career.

Too bad she didn't think of that before. Remember, she will be in trouble because of what she did, not because you exposed it.

Looks like me that she needs to start looking for another job. If she leaves the job and sticks to NC, then you would have no reason to expose her at work.

Who

SGL,

Please listen to WhoMe...the affair won't end until contact does.

Choose exposure, 'k? It's the truth of actions you're sharing...not sabotaging, lying or deceiving. Be brave.

LA

Need help so badly. Turmoil, yet again; we were making huge progress up until this weekend. Now I am fully aware she is continueing to see the OM and insists there is nothing left.

Please help. Am considering this exposure letter. talk to me, any suggestions, any support at all.... please....

Dear XYZ,

I need to inform you of some things that have been affecting our family.

Tina and I have both been dealing with infidelity in our marriage. We have both made mistakes. I want to put an end to it, rid our marriage of the pain and hurt we have caused each other, and work to repair our marriage.

I love Tina, and I love our children and our families. I’m asking you to be an ally of our marriage, to support our family and help convince her the affair is wrong. Our marriage will require a lot of work once the affair is over, but to get to that point, the A she's currently in has to be stopped. I believe we can get to that point, despite her claims that our marriage has been dead for a long time.

I can’t stress enough that I am writing you out of love for my wife and our family, not out of vengeance. We had the kind of marriage everyone dreams about, and the hurt and pain we have both caused each other is immense. Please give us your support to help us repair our life.

Sincerely,
Tom

^