Oh, SL. I feel for ya, I really do.

I whole heartedly agree that something needs to be done in regards to PWC and his lack of touching you.

However......is right NOW the best time? So much is on your plate. So much concern regarding the surgery. Can you REALLY have a conversation with PWC under these conditions and not have the conversation affected by these other concerns?

Are you trying to help open the door to his exit now because of the stress of the surgery? Consider that just maybe you have so much on your mind that you cannot deal with his lack of movement?

I don't think I said that very well, I hope you can read into what I mean a little bit.

Only take on what you can right now. Don't overload yourself and then crumble under the load.

If you are ready and feel that you must "confront" him now, I'm behind you all the way. I have a feeling that anytime we talk to them about anything like this, they feel confronted, but that's just my opinion.

I'm here for you, SL. Offering you a back to lean against when you need it.

Fox

It will be hard for her, IMO, having had surgery myself not so very long ago- early recovery, to proceed without resolving the issue of not being touched by her H.

She has to prepare herself not to expect it 'cause she's gonna want and need it...

I'm encouraging you to be PROACTIVE..Steven Covey

Avoidance and denial of issues are not a good thing...as SL already knows...

Whoa! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This hit waaaay close to home, Foxy lady! I was just thinking about my tendency to push him away. Now is not the time for that.

I think there may be some merit in what you say. How do I let myself slip backwards?

Having said that (to myself, in my head, while steadily typing it) I think it IS time to discuss some things, and the touch thing will come up, because I NEED IT.

Wow, it's amazing how you caught that.

Mimi, as always, you are speaking my language. I really do need to have a conversation about my needs, not about HIM and my needs (as I've done in the past), but about what I need, as fact, as part of who I am, not about what he's NOT DOING, but about what I need, now, today, tomorrow and always. Heck, I could use some Thug Lovin at this point, but I would LOVE some touches, just that comfort of a physical connection.

I'm feeling more clear, much better...

{{{SL}}} You sound terrific...I'm with Mimi on hearing that.

I have some suggestions...and I've been so self-absorbed, involved that I haven't read the last two pages on your thread. These may have been suggested already.

Trying to get from enemies back to allies, non-affectionate touch was suggested in a book I read. It's where you give each other a should and neck massage for only 15 minutes.

The one receiving the massage can talk...the one giving it doesn't.

God's design of our bodies, giving us flesh, is so we can be touched, connected, even wordlessly, I believe. When you place your hands on FWH, that connection goes two ways...you can feel affection from you touching him...because it ripples back up through your own arm (if you don't pile the DJs in the way like I did). Can feed you, also.

We had to learn to touch even when we didn't feel like it. We did repair touches...the backs of our hands, a palm to a cheek (not in anger, though), foot to foot. Tiny stuff when we don't want to...because that affirms we are doing what we believe, our choice to love, not reacting to our feelings.

I remembered (how conveniently I forget it...I think resentment is an awareness wipe in me) just a week ago after our MC appt...we'd gotten in our separate cars, wordlessly...and before I buckled in, I got back out...walked to his car door, which he opened...leaned down with both my hands on either side of his face, looked him right in the eye and kissed him.

Then I walked back to my car. He called out "thank you"...

Similarities...my DH feels taken over, engulfed, invaded at times...very old stuff...and can feel that way with touch when he feels responsible, criticized or burdened by me. His fear and panic at feeling overwhelmed is real...valid...and it's his own stuff. I have no doubt in his life he's experienced touch in this way, to an abusive degree...and I'm sure I have used affection as a weapon, a demand, a way to discount and trod over him.

I don't know if any of that connects to your FWH, SL...what I know is being the opposite...the one WANTING to be smothered...I had no clue how much pain he experiences when he feels controlled, taken over...or held responsible for something he cannot control.

Doesn't equalize or excuse...just widens our knowledge and experience.

About touching when we don't feel like it to help us retrain our brains to act directly from our beliefs and not react to our feelings...respect your choice to touch as a choice, too...share you know it is his choice whether he does or not, accepts your touch or not...and chooses to say, "Feels demanding...I feel inadequate...judged...consumed" or not.

In the beginning...the woo-time...was affection rampant? I ask because Hendrix says we project our own IMAGO stuff during that infatuation period onto our partner. Can seems as though they were all we wanted and after we married, bam, not so. Not because they changed...because we stopped projecting.

I'm thinking somewhere in the middle is reality...how 'bout you? How about a kiss good morning, good night and goodbye...as routine...a goal you both set together? You need HIS help in doing this...share your stuff as it happens, as you do here...not to get him to do/be/think/feel...to share what you're experiencing right now.

Doesn't mean he won't hear criticism, judgment, demands...and doesn't mean you are doing it. Share your experiences...no confrontation.

Acceptance, to me, is key to affection. Acknowledges presence, not just communicates emotion...we reach for and then feel from taking the action. Builds our own confidence, from our choices...becomes our experience.

All stuff you already know...I'm just going through it, also...old stuff is new again...ack...only not as long as you have been experiencing it. Big hugs, kudos and you're not alone.

LA

This is actually a very concise way to put it. I may use this one, Mimi. I think it's important that he understand I will have a strong need for human touch after the surgery. I would rather know that this is not forthcoming, than hope beyond hope that he comes thru. I will be setting him up to FAIL.

LA, beautifully put, as always.



I do STILL let the feelings get in the way of my beliefs. I want the beliefs to get in the way of the feelings. FLIP FLOP. I've been doing well with this lately, but this most recent development had me running scared, for the moment.

I come here, vent and get the best advice.

I recognize my need to run, by pushing PWC toward the door, to prove me RIGHT, that he will reject me, even before I've given him a chance to speak or show me otherwise (Fox nailed this one).

Then Mimi tells me that I'm not doing my part, being proactive, taking this discussion to PWC; the only one who can really help me resolve this.

LA comes up with an exercise or two, in how to bridge this gap. Something I haven't tried that could bring us together, instead of allowing that wedge to continue, in the pursuit of being right, or justified.

What a wonderful group of friends.

Time to talk, to action my beliefs further than I have.

SL,

You grace this board, you know that? You have helped me so much from reading your posts...and mvg...Mimi...fox...SD...Rinners...Acey...the list seems endless.

I wanted to add a thought I had while out to lunch (oxymoron, huh?)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Often with affection, physical touch, we are talking wordlessly...saying a lot...which is solely subjective. Makes sense when we act like enemies, that touch can hurt...like that rejection you expect (which I believe you know is my big thing to understand in me)...makes sense to stop touching to stop the hurt...when it's really an excess of touch, of wordlessness at work, really, isn't it?

Your balance of speaking in words and touch is key here...knowing what you're hearing in his lack of touch or your own touch...remembering what whispers to you from it...and speaking it aloud.

When you share your struggle, trying to flip and stop the flop...that's intimacy. That's emotional intimacy...doesn't mean he has to do/think/say anything...means he hears...so he's shares in that way. The more you share of what you're working on, your new desires (including beliefs, actions, expectations), the more intimate you will be...and yes, sometimes, that's wordless in touch, too...

Balance.

Not bad, wrong, good guy/bad guy...just seeking balance. Your strength and clarity...and acceptance of what you don't know yet, what he hasn't shared...and faith he will.

You've got goals, woman...and your posts reflect your pure intent. Thank you so much.

Makes sense our urge to be right, our false safe place, where we are significant (because we're right), we matter, we affect...is so strong. Consider it the urge to rightness...to balance...not justifications...acceptance of what really is, even if it's not about ourselves.

LA

In the process of not expecting - be certain that in this process you have not resigned yourself to not getting. KWIM?

The opposite of expecting something is expecting nothing. That expecting nothing leads to disappointment and resentment when you really WANT or NEED the something you didn't get.

I really don't think in close personal relationships that there is any such thing as absolutely no expectations. You expect something or you expect nothing. You are going to get one of them.



Completely agree. I, personally, don't think I would have dealt with it nearly as long as SL has.

The question is motive. Why NOW? Why not before, why not later - why NOW? Is it to focus on something other than surgery?

I ask that - because I'm notorius for it. I sometimes cause a ruckus over something somewhat trivial to avoid dealing with the major issues. (bet ya didn't know that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I'm not saying you're wrong, SL, just examine your motives. Can you separate the fear of your issues with PWC and the fear of surgery, etc?

I'm all for dealing with PWC, these issues MUST be addressed. But......Do you have the energy and presence of mind to deal with it BEST right now?

You might be in the perfect place, only you can know - just throwing the question out there for ya.

Fox

LovingAnyway,

Your posts always inspire such deep thought, reflection, and consideration. I am so grateful for the kind way you deliver your points. You, too, are a blessing.

Thank you,

Fox

I think that's a good catch, Fox. Really good.

For me, it's fear that leads me down a dark road, and causes an urge in me to inspect all aspects of my life, the most OBVIOUS issues take the lead, and the lack of touch is something that has been draining me.

I don't think I'm causing a ruckus to avoid the fear of the surgery. I think it's more like I mentioned above; the generalized fear taking me to bad places.

Now, as far as not being touched, this won't work for me. As Mimi expressed earlier



and I do have this expectation, as a part of a happy marriage, for ME. This is an EN that needs to be met; it is very high on the list. This is something that we DID very well, at one time. From the beginning and stretching far into our M, we TOUCHED quite a bit, probably up until 6 months before the first A.

The thought of being in pain, and not being comforted by touch is probably what brought this to the forefront for me.

I know it has, SL. And it really should be addressed. I completely agree with you in regards to its importance.

You know your sitch better than any of us - if you say now is the time - then I'm behind you 100%.

I truly hope you get what you are looking for.

I know it's not the same - but I'd hug you IRL if I could.

((((SilentLucidity))))

Fox

I am doing a fly by. What else is he doing to fill the LB?

I know this has been an issue for a while now. So if not this EN what EN's is he filling? Is he making deposits in other area's that are important for you?

Can your LB be in a ever have a postive balance or is the not touching offsetting the depostits he is making.

I am talking about EN's though not area's of improvement that you have noticed.

For instance my wife cooks more now that is a positive but it isn't filling one of my main EN's. So even though it is a good thing it doesn't fill my emotional tank.

((((sl)))))

Hi Frog,

He certainly does fill other EN's. Domestic support, Financial support, Family commitment, conversation has gotten better, and some Recreational companionship. The only problem I have with the last one of this list is that it has been me planning things together or me asking to accompany him on things he wants to do (like the concert that we went to).

Initially, the top of my list contained more about family than us (eg financial support, family commitment), now the top of my list is weighted with the need for affection, SF, recreational companionship. It's probably because I notice that these things are lacking, and it concerns me.

When it all comes down to it, I need affection more than anything else. For the most part, it's always been very high, if not #1 in my list. It's now sticking out like a sore thumb.

So, I'm still thinking on this a bit. When I got home from work yesterday, my BIL was hanging out with PWC, so there wasn't much interaction between us. THey were playing video games, and I'm just not intereseted, and they were VERY loud, which is one of the last things I was looking forward to when I got home. No time to talk.

I'm also sort of waiting on my emotional wave to pass on a bit. It is pretty intense these past couple of days; I'm thinking it's hormonal at this point . It feels like it--overwhelming. Going into a discussion like this could lead to me overreacting. I'm beginnning to KNOW myself all too well. I need a bit more time to collect myself.

I'm going to read back over the last 24 hours, to get some perspective, start to formulate some questions, and ideas.

Hi SL,

Thanks for dropping by on my thread even though you seem to have your hands full.

I think you are doing great given the challenges are faced with, and seeing that you are getting great advice, I am just dropping by to send you some support and major major

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((CYBERHUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Silent:

I had written the most thoughtful and insightful post ever regarding Mimi's request to me that I address the SF issue.

Alas, when it was time to post it, I got the "Form no longer valid" prompt.

So, Your stuck with this rambling NOW.

The way I see it, if the RC time increases, then the Affection will come.

Your not interested in the video games, and that's ok. But it DID represent something to get connected to PWC with. If he enjoys them, then you could find some way in.

Whether it is the football or other sports games, you could participate by watching. Where was DS? Hopefully, he was involved?

My 15 year old plays the Madden football, but he DUMBS down the opposing team so much that the other team has NO offense, or DEFENSE (Sort of like the Ravens...) Makes me crazy. You didn't BEAT THEM 155-0. You just rigged it on your favor.

But, that's my issue. He's having fun. I should just watch and enjoy his amusement.

Can't you see? Even with BIL there, it is a time to share.

It shows Admiration.... "Wow! Great tackle!"
A chance to touch... "High Five!" or thigh to thigh on the couch.
Connection to the home... "he's playing here... and there is DS.

The surgery and those issues bring the lack of affection to the forefront. When you are in your bed, in pain, WHAT will PWC do THEN?

Tough to contemplate, hence the fear.

And the SF need?

Anger on his part. All the things that were wrong, come down to THAT ANGER.

The Loss of the happy fun S/L after the arrival of DS.
The loss of spontaniety.
The loss of .......

So, therefore, He is Angry. And until he finds a way to release his anger, (admitted, he should NOT BE with you, but he is) he is withholding the affection/SF from you, even if it makes him uncomfortable.

RC and other activites like that will provide the waves against the rocks of his anger. Slowly grinding them down.

Are you ready to be the waves?

Thoughout this thread, even on your prior threads, you have been asked about your RC activities with PWC. And they seem sporadic at best. Time for the waves. And yes, PWC has been hesitant. Resistant even.

But when he talked with you about that need of his, and he was visibly shaking, it still can't seem to happen.

Why? Money? Time? Activities? Opportunities?

Well.

Time to change that. Be the wave.

IT will destroy the anger. And create a better foundation for affection and SF.

JMVHO.

LG

Go get the Wii. My Parents love the games on that. They come over to watch the kids and everytime we come home there they are playing it.

However I do not like to put the Onus on just you. You have your faults and you aren't perfect but I see that you are continuing in your efforts!!! I think that you should of course continue to try to recover your M but all the heavy lifting isn't on you. AGain that is just my opinion.


Here are the questions:

1. Why don't you......? Very important to just wait. Do not give suggestions just wait for an answer.

If it is your hair and he would love to touch you if you had purple hair you could then go to.

So if I buy a purple wig you would.....? Yes.

What else.

If it is I don't know. Ask nicely for him to think hard and ask if he can think about it and discuss it in three days. In three days ask again.

The bottom line is that you should stop guessing and stop poking around trying to figure it out.

The why is necessary.

What happens if the why is nothing you can change?

Then you really need to make a decesion don't you.

LG, the RC is something that I have been working on. It takes a lot of effort on my part to find babysitters, money, where to go, etc. PWC is NO help in what we can do. I ask, and he says not much of anything. I don't think I can be more open with him about this. I'm an opened book.

Every time RC is addressed, I try HARDER. I also have had a lot of illness and pain as of late, so I may be slipping. It's really not intentional, but I do grow tired of PULLING. There are TWO of us here. I know you are only speaking to me, as I'm the one posting, but please believe me when I say I'm running full steam. I ask what he would like to do, and he says "I dunno". I make suggestions, and he says something like, well I'm not as interested in that, but I'll go.

Soooo, I ask, AGAIN, is there something you would like to do INSTEAD, we could figure this out together.

I can't tell you how tired I am of this right now. He is more than welcome to be angry with me for whatever reason he wants, but not telling me and holding some false ground against me is NOT working in his favor. I've been very honest and open with him and ASKED the same of him. Asked if he's angry, what is he angry about.

Most of the responses I have gotten have been that he doesn't WANT me in some way or another. So, I try and work and touch and give and change. I've said it before, I'm not interested in going backward. I use the past as a teaching tool, not as punishment. If he's not finished punishing me, well, I can't help him. It will just drive me away, just as my anger would drive him away.

I've told him all of this. I don't like repeating myself over and over. It bores him, he doesn't hear me anymore, and it just frustrates me.

I will continue to try and find things for us to do, but I honestly don't know how much more I have in me right now.

Frog,

The why has been asked and poked and prodded. He won't tell me why ANYTHING. HE just says he doesn't wanna, and if he doesn't FEEL it, he CAN'T.

It's highly discouraging, to say the least, and yet I continue on, changing and working. I know I have a bit left in me. I'm not indifferent at this point, just tired.

I'm emotional right now, which doesn't help my perspective.

As for the video game, it was 'Guitar Hero" and he and BIL were blasting it, continually playing song after song. It honestly is BORING for the bystander. I'm really not interested. They played the same three songs over and over and over. When he's playing adventure games or ANY OTHERS, I'm usually sitting by, talking, helping, talking, close by. Just not last night.

Oh, and as for DS, he was sitting on the couch watching, largely ignored. I'm not being judgmental, it's just how PWC and BIL were, really into the game. DS was allowed to try a couple of times to play a tune, but that was about it. I found him crying on the kitchen floor (he's so dramatic) when his dad took the guitar back and didn't let him strum another tune.

My old tag line "The definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is a HUGE issue in your M and yet is still goes unresolved.

Do you really really believe that one day it will just work itself out? Has it yet?

So you are willing to live with I don't know, I just dont wanna? No you aren't.

So now what?

HEAR THIS. YOU DISERVE MORE THEN, I DON'T KNOW WHY.

No gorry details but the FWW and I had that problem. I said well I love you but to me that is important. If you can't I really don't see a future for us. It is a need and if you won't fulfill it I just won't be happy in this M.

That EN makes me happy. You say you don't know why but you don't feel like it.

What I am hearing is this......He refuses to do what makes you happy and he can't spend the time or energy to work through it.

I personally think you should EXPECT at least some thought and an actual reason.