Hi LG!

Yeah, there are some who have talked about taking DS overnight. I would like to reserve that for planning 'special occassions' for us. The ones who live close (GF and my dad) are willing to take him for a few hours at a time.

Really, PWC and I have accomplished a lot of US time after DS goes to bed each night, mostly talking, which I think is high on BOTH of our EN's. PWC initiates a lot. It's good. I have also begun to spend time with DS and PWC when they are playing video games. I do grow tired of "Guitar Hero", but DS is so cute, it makes it worth it.

I have still been getting to bed earlier most days, due to recovery, but I make exceptions when I can take it. Going back to work is going to set me back for a little while, but not forever. PWC knows this. We discuss my physical recovery often, to the point of him scolding me for doing TOO much.

I still long for all the affection and closeness, but I know it won't come without me putting myself out there, so that's what I've been doing. Giving affection, admiration, showing my love, and making efforts to spend some quality time together, even if it's just shooting the breeze in the kitchen. This sort of thing is what our R was built on. It's when we stopped really talking, laughing, relaxing, that we went wrong.

A mom who plays video games with Dad and son . . . very cool.


Taking words out of my mouth.

I'm happy for you.

SL, you inspire me and give me a 'thunk' on the head when I need it...I THANK YOU. I gather alot of strength from you and others here. I hope others do to. I wish I had paid attention when it was said M is hard work, constant work, and never take one another for granted. I just didn't understand at that time. M can be so wonderful EVEN after the warm fuzzies wear off IF the proper care is given.

I still long for all the affection and closeness, but I know it won't come without me putting myself out there, so that's what I've been doing. Giving affection, admiration, showing my love, and making efforts to spend some quality time together, even if it's just shooting the breeze in the kitchen. This sort of thing is what our R was built on. It's when we stopped really talking, laughing, relaxing, that we went wrong.

Me too SL!

I hear it all of the time, and live by it…

Watch what they do, not what they say…

It’s a difficult thing to learn, and put into practice, isn’t it? I know I’ve had my share of problems with the concept. I’m learning, but this weekend didn’t help in my quest to learn to watch.

Had a conversation with PWC; started out fine, talking about STUFF, then turned to family, then turned to us (I took it there) . Turns out he has still not committed himself to saving our M. He still is unsure if he wants to BE married, much less married to me, and dealing with the outcome of his betrayal.

I’ve since backed off a bit, and just tended to myself, taking care to make sure I laugh and relax. I find it much easier these days to rebound from such conversations.

One thing he said, that made me extremely uncomfortable had to do with EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. Just a tiny bit of background. PWC’s younger brother is doing an internship in his department, so they are together 4 days a week, all work day long, literally; they carpool. Now that you’ve got the background, I’ll tell you what bothers me. He stated that he doesn’t have the OPPORTUNITY to engage any new OW, because he brother is with him all day long, and then he’s home. I told him that my concern is that he’s holding someone else accountable to keep HIM accountable for his comings and goings and interactions with OW. I told him that, IMO, this is not an extraordinary precaution, and wondered what would happen when his brother’s internship was up, and he moved on; who would help PWC hold himself accountable THEN.

So, my worries have panned out to be true, that PWC is no further along in committing to the tough work of recovery. It’s not as if I didn’t already know this, he’s told me on several occasions. I don’t really know what this means for me right now, but I’m certainly not making any decisions for now. I’m giving myself some time to get ME straight.

Whenever I think of my son, it tears me up, for he will suffer most if we D. As it is now, PWC and I get along very well, do enjoy spending time together, but there is an underlying current that our M is not important, that I am not important to him. My fear with him coming home in the first place was that he didn’t want to lose his way of life, not necessarily me, but his home, his COMFORT.

Hmmm, it’s a tricky sitch, y’know, very tricky. I wonder often, that if I give this the two years, it may all pan out; after all, it’s only two years, and I’m giving my son a chance to grow up in a two parent HAPPY home (if PWC ever fully engages). My worry is that I’m allowing myself to be SNOWED; falling into old patterns. I picked up the book “Boundaries” yesterday, and plan on making it a quick read. I do have boundaries in place, but not in regards to what I’m experiencing right now. The only conclusion I come to is to divorce. It’s not what I want, and if I judge PWC by his actions, it’s not what he wants.

Tricky, tricky, tricky.

Good thing is, I’m okay. I’m not crying my eyes out, falling on the floor, fearful of everything that hasn’t happened, that could, maybe, would, should happen. I’m just doing the day to day thing.

I’m back at work today. My low back went out last night, so that’s special and fun. I had a good time watching THE GAME with my brother and PWC, enjoying various terrible for you foods.

Since our conversation, PWC has, as usual, spent time with me, asking to tag along, or making a point to talk to me, include me. Problem is, it’s only when things seem bleak or troubled that he clings to me. I don’t want a clinger-on, I want an equal partner, making a point to talk to me and spend time with me, because it’s what’s best for us, not because he feels like he’s on a slippery slope.

Meh, today is a new day, and I will do my best to keep the drama at bay, and be clear and focused.

Oh Sl I'm sorry. I can understand why you are unclear about why he came home if it's just not to lose his comfort. That has been one of my fears also..right now for me seems to be just that tho, fear,not true.

I'm glad you were/are able to see the bigger picture and not dwell in that moment.

I hope reading boundaries will help YOU. I started reading and haven't gotten back to it yet. I think you are an extremely strong lady and you'll 'know' at the right time what you need to do, whatever that may be.

(((keeping you and your family in my prayers, especially that your PWC's heart will soften and he'll see what he does have and what he has to lose.)))

Hi mvg

sounds like things are looking up for you, and that is great!

It's not all bad at home. Like I said, we get along, spend time together, but it's truly like we are buds, pals, friends, and not even close friends; friends that would confide in one another, etc. There is very little intimacy in our R. I try and try, but he's stuck in the muck, and seemingly refuses to make a decision to fight for our M.

I asked him if he was waiting for some sign, some epiphany. He said epiphany sounded like the most applicable word. I told him that may never come, what then. I told him that it sounded as if he was basing his decisions on feelings, and he agreed (as he always has believed).

Now, I believe that he is acting on his feelings. When I am in a good mood, and totally open, he's there to soak up the happiness, still not giving what I need to hang in there.

Truth is, I'm not falling over sad, I'm disappointed. It's also becoming apparent to me that I'm losing any love I have left for this man. He's unrecognizable to me; not the man I remember.

HOWEVER, after getting to know myself better, I'd have to say that he has always been emotionally constricted, unavailable. This is not new, except before our M began to erode, he wanted to be with me, but those were the 'good times'. When things turned a bit sour, he high tailed it. Honestly, our R wasn't all that bad, in retrospect. I've taken as clear a look back as possible, and realize we were just like many couples struggling with parenthood and a M. Same problems I hear from many of my friends who are married and having children.

Well, there was more said, but the jist of it is that, as a WE, we aren't lookin so good. I'm feeling good, and doing quite well. I have my down days, but those pass quickly and I'm back up to full steam.

None of this looks very good for an US. PWC must commit or we're caput.

What about TIME ALONE? 15 hours per week, COMPLETELY ALONE with each other.

Yup, completely alone. I think there's more at work with PWC than our M. I believe he has a lot going on in his head; what that is, I don't know.

I'm giving it all I've got. At a certain point, he has to choose to RECEIVE the gifts.

I'm not going to sit and try to figure him out, it's exhausting, and I've got myself and my son to deal with. There is still so much work I have to do to fix me, I can't possibly know what's wrong with him.

a major concern of mine has been his recent drinking. I've voiced my concern to him. I woke up one night to him vomitting in the toilet after drinking ALONE. That's a lot of drinking for a 225lb man.

HE had always been a beer drinker, but he's switched to Rum since before returning home in May. HE used to brew his own beer, hasn't done that in forever now either. HE smells of it when he comes to bed most weekends mixed with cigarettes, starting every Friday night. HE also snores heavily when he's been drinking, lightly when he has not, so then I can't sleep and have to move to a location where I can (like last night, for instance). HE voluntarily spends most weekends on the couch, because he knows he will snore me out of bed.

YEs, this is new information, I know. His drinking has progressively gotten worse over the last 5 months. Again, I've voiced my concern.

S/L:

You always seem to skirt this:


And no matter WHAT, you have an excuse for it, and then the excuse is that it is PWC's fault. Or, someone not taking the kid, or, or, or....

This is a roller coaster. You understand, that for guys, emotional depth is REAL DIFFICULT? I could have been PWC with my attitudes for YEARS. Yes, I had an epiphany when I learned about MB. Maybe a 2x4 to his head in a literal sense is what he needs. I kinda wish I had the ability to document the path he needs to take to get to that emotional depth he needs to get.

He is doing sooo much right.

Spending time with DS.

PWC using his brother as accountability for him at work? Great. I used my son, and Flamingo was all over that as well. She spent alot of time in the office to insure compliance. What ever it takes. Until his boundaries are in place.

TO get to that emotional depth, he needs to make that leap across the canyon, to you. He's not sure that your ready to catch HIM. STILL.

Remember the analogy of the spinning centrifuge, and you want to reach your arms out to each other, but you can't?

Maybe he needs to see your arms more.

I don't know. Maybe you SHOULD just divorce him. You have learned so much, and you don't WANT to settle for this fool.

That's cool. But you have fought the good fight. Maybe your loving detachment is what he needs to see. He will get the 2x4 from that. And realize that he COULD lose you if he doesn't straighen up. Dunno.

But he hasn't made the leap across the abyss yet. Why do you think he hasn't?

LG

Silent:

Your post about the drinking jumped in before I posted the above.

The drinking is troubling. It's another escape. Affairs are one, and alcohol is another. He may be trading one addiction for another.

You could REALLY use BR right now.

(((S/L)))

LG

BR can contact me, if need be.

I've been investigating a lot on my own, since BR and Mimi had been prodding me to look inside.

I'm really NOT skirting the time together issue. I'm finding it difficult to compete with this elephant in the room.

I'm glad that you posted as you did, LG. One thing that I'm very happy with is my turn toward more honesty and oppenness with PWC. IT has not been easy to open myself up, but I'm doing it.

We do spend time alone, and during the week, it's mostly good. When he comes home Friday night, with a new 1.75L bottle in hand, and I know it will probably be gone by Sunday, it's not easy. I'm at my own crossroads with this, and need to find a way to deal with my part in all of this HORRIFIC mess.

His mother died from alcohol related disease in May '05, right before he admitted to 'falling in love' with OW#1. SHe drank herself to death. SHe was only in her mid fourties. PWC's younger brother (half brother) grew up in that household, where his drunk arsed mother would scream and berate and abuse and then pass out. THis is the brother that is supposed to hold him accountable? I dunno, that's a lot to ask of a 17 year old, IMO.

I don't think PWC is being accountable TO him, as much as he's said he can't get away with anything because his younger brother is around. In the absense of his younger brother, just being IN THE WAY, what will he choose to do? I think being accountable is great! PWC will call me to let me know where he is and what he's doing after work, and that has been very helpful to us.

Relying on others for your moral compass is not good, IMO.

I agree, if SL's goal is to learn how to cope while living with an alcoholic.

And yes, SL......if he wasn't already, he is becoming an alcoholic.

Self medicating, hiding from reality, burying feelings....he's running...headed for an affair with the bottle.

I don't really know what advice to offer you since I don't think I have full information.

A question for you to think about is: While you are doing everything in your power to hold your M together for the sake of your son, how long are you willing to just "get by", waiting for PWC to finally get it? Will your son be grown before you have had enough? What will he learn during this time? Will it be worse than a divorce?

While I am certainly not an advocate of divorce, I think there are worse things that could happen to a child.

I don't know ....but it's something to think about.

Take care,
Fox

If you choose, make a SHOUT out to BR..she's open about living right now with the issues you are speaking about...

Silent:

You have explained much about his FOO issues. Issues I wasn't aware of.

Al-Anon might be a place for you to start.

You are living with the child of an alcoholic, and not one that was presented a good role model for accountability and how to act in a marriage.

I lived with a alcoholic, lazy father, who we moved away from when I was 13, and a mother who, would tip them back pretty good herself. I didn't realize till much later how those behaviors really played out. I was living in my own world as a coping mechanism. Most of the really bad stuff you would have to talk to my older sister (she's 6 years older) She lived it. Watched it and probably listened to my mother talk about it.

And you need support with understanding that. BR can help. (In spite of Fox's tepid endorsement...;) And your statement: "BR can contact me, if need be." makes it seem like you feel it's BR's job to come to your assistance.

It isn't. You need to make that call out.

The INCREASE in his drinking activity since he returned home? That in it self is enough for me to throw the red flag on PWC.

A bottle of Rum a weekend? Besotted on the couch all weekend? That ain't living. That's existing, and NOT facing your issues. Exit stage Alcohol.

Silent, this little bit of additional info MAY be the piece that addresses WHY your M isn't moving forward. WHY the connections aren't being repaired. WHY it is SO Impossible for PWC to reach back out.

HE's an alcoholic, and he will RUN from adversity. And he's not particularly concerned with the outcome of his choices.

And that is SO MUCH more than MB Concepts can address.

(((S/L)))

LG

Thank you all.

Foxy lady, I have asked myself those same questions. I can only tell you that I have a time limit on how long, and I am learning to form boundaries and find better ways to communicate until that time. NO, I'm not willing to SACRIFICE more and more and more for my husband. I also don't want my son growing up around an alcoholic, at least as much as I can limit it.

Even if my M ends, I want to take this time to learn about myself, why I choose what I do, and make better choices.

I watched my FIL live with PWC's mom, in her anger and resentment, not even knowing at the time about all the screaming, hitting, berating going on behind closed doors, and it pissed me off.

PWC has said such things as people don't want to be around those who point out their drinking is excessive, or that they are concerned for their health or safety. Same thing with smoking. He is trying to sell it, but I ain't buyin. Probably because I was once a smoker, and deal with that addiction daily.

I agree that there are worse things that could happen to a child.

Initially, when he seemed to be embibing more, I thought, well, it's only now and then, and he's only doing it on the weekends, but it stuck out, it bothered ME. Now, it's every weekend, and sometimes starts pretty early in the afternoon. I'm not into making excuses for other people, so I voiced my concern to PWC. HE seems unfazed about it.

LG, I hear you about BR; good point. I will email her.

I have looked into local Al-Anon groups, to get help for myself. I'm not looking for it to save my M.

My natural father was an alcoholic. When my mother left him, I was probably about 1 year old, but my sister was three and my brother was eight. My father was physically/emotionally abusive to my mother, adn controlling. He did when I was in my early twenties, alchohl related, of course. MY Brother is an alcholic, and my sister has shown tendencies toward self medication. I did smoke heavily for some time, but quit, with purpose and conviction, right before conceiving my son. I have not gone back since, and will not allow it as a crutch.

Hopefully, you and BR won't mind sharing on HERE so that we all can continue learning. That's what I hate about emailing.

YUCK and DOUBLE YUCK about the DRINKING..You absolutely do need BR as that would be a DEALBREAKER for me...given how I grew up..

I'm absolutely biased when it comes to that...

((((SL, my girl))))

I feel more and more like this deal has been broken for nearly three years. It took me a loooong time to give PWC back what he is responsible for, and to stop seeing him as would like and not as he is.

THese last few months, it has become more and more apparent that I'm the only one rowing, and that's just not okay with me. I dont' think I have the stamina to remain like this, and I don't think he believes his behavior is the problem at all. He believes what happens, happens, as if we have no control over our perceptions, our actions or how we feel.

I worry about my financial future, i worry for my son, and I worry that PWC will sink further into an abyss of alcohol and poor choices, blaming the rest of the world. I can't control that, but I can control my choices.