Mimi, I can't promise you that BR will come here, but I'll do all I can to relay what we discuss. I really dont' know how much I can help others, as I don't see PWC getting help for something he doesn't consider a problem, and I'm not sure what I'm willing to do in the absense of him getting help.

YUCK is right!

Silent:

About this:


Well DUH.

Enablers seek enablers....

Your not ENABLING.

Therefore, HE's not sure he wants to continue to "BE" with you.

Silent:

You should have never held some of this info back.

Yes, his drinking has built up since May 07. But it changes everything.

Maybe you didn't recognize the severity until recently.

But its really bad news.

Your not dealing with PWC, the lost WW H. Your dealing with an alcoholic, who's addicted to something else.

And the pull of that, is even stronger than OW.

His ephipanay (sp?) can't happen, until he wants it to happen. His Dday has to happen with himself.

BR can talk about managing a life around a functioning alcoholic. She's not happy with it, but she learned to deal with it, and to make sure that the effects of the drinking do not leak out and affect all areas of the relationship. BR is walking a very fine line. And BR's H, is toeing his own line. That's why he is a "functioning" alcoholic. But, I would guess that BR had to go through ALOT of issues prior to getting to this so-called functioning state with her H that she is now in.

Signing on for THAT, after the A's? Tough to do.

And now you KNOW what you are signing up for.

Your heart may deserve so much better than that. And PWC can join you on that ride. BUT HE has to purchase the ticket. Silent can not buy that one.

LG

I'm biased when it comes to that too, Mimi. I was the middle child of alcoholic and with that the "scapegoat" title fell to me.

It's such a waste. All it takes is one member of the family.........

I trust you, SL, to find your direction in this. THANK YOU for sharing, I know this was probably difficult to admit. You know where you can reach out when you are ready.

Looking into AA is a good start.

If your goal is to remain with PWC even with this issue, then BR is an EXCELLENT resource (is that better, LG? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

My endorsements tend to be tepid because I'm not sure that learning to "cope" with an alcoholic is the best someone can do. The bar is lowered for what is acceptable and I see it as somewhat enabling. JMHO.

Maybe this will get PWC to rock bottom.....so that he HAS to climb out....or.....

It does explain alot of the stagnancy in Recovery.

Thinking of you, SL.....

Fox

I have problems enabling, and have begun to let others own their own STUFF, including my brother, my sister and PWC. When my mom died, it was almost as if I took her place in the ole enabling seat, helping out with money problems, living situations, whatever come what may.

I recently helped my sister, financially, when her dog fell ill, and needed surgery. I also helped my brother with a new car. My sister and brother pay me back, but they always seem to fall on HARD TIMES. THEN they avoid me like the plague, still paying me, but putting their guilt on me. I have worked thru this with my sister, and we have come to an agreement, but my bro is a different nut altogeter. VEEEEEERY sensitive. HE takes everything to heart, and this defense mechanism works, 'cause I don't wanna hurt his feewings. Well, I'm done with that, too. HE's got a responsibility, and I have made it clear on a number of occasions, without enforcing any boundary. This is only part of the reason for the purchase of the boundaries book.

I don't want to ride this ride with him, LG, not THIS one. He's still in that mind set where drinking is the 'social lubricant', and great fun to do with others. I dunno. HE likes to party. It's like he's younger in his mind, more immature, than he is in years.

Early on in recovery, the drinking was not this much, it has progressed. It's been since Thanksgiving that I have been more focused on it. Now, I'm at the stage where I'm accepting that he has a problem, and that I'm not any kind of cure, and that he won't change for me. It has taken me a few months to come to this place. I'm sorry that I've kept it to myself, but I really hadn't accepted this next ball of sh!te that has come to pass.

I do know what I would be signing on for, and I'm not up for it. I do love PWC, but I can't fathom staying with him like this. I would rather be on my own, really. It's just been too much.

EXACTLY....

Sorry to hear about the drinking. That might be common. My ex is practically a knock down, finished, skid row alcoholic. I think it is easier to stay blotto than to face what he has done. Anyway, now he can use the excuse that he did such and such because he was drunk.

I wanted my marriage after the affair and did the MB thing for over 4 years. But I'll be d*amned if I would do Alanon for another four.

I know you have a son to consider, so I would set a time-frame in my mind. Do you think you can make it till the 4th of July? If not, pick Mother's Day.

I wouldn't even "warn him" about the drinking anymore. Just continue the MB stuff and make a happy life.

SL-
I don't know...

When people are trying to escape reality, they drink... and drink and drink some more....

I find it bothersome that your M has not really progressed, and that he is drinking a lot, especially on the weekends, when you could spend some quality time together.

I hate to say it, but I get the feeling that he is waiting for YOU to throw in the towel... and the guilt is eating him alive... He KNOWS how much marital recovery means to you, he KNOWS how important you think it is for you guys to stay together for your son... and he is TRYING to "SAY" that he did all that he could. I really just do not think that his heart is into it.

BUT. You know that he is not. He knows that he is not. It is NOT good enough for him to just be there. MY EX tried to use that on me, "BUT... I am STILL here..." It is NOT good enough.

I personally think that he tried, in his own way, to try to make it work... but I do not see it changing. ESPECIALLY if there is not SF going on on a regular basis.

I am NOT a D advocate by any means, but there IS life after a D, and your child STILL can be happy. Sure, it will be a transition, but in the end, the tension that your child sees, will be gone. Your child seeing your H drinking every weekend, would stop. Especially if there is a cycle of alcoholism in your family. You do not want your son to think that it is ok to drink away his problems, to avoid the elephant in the room.

If you want to stick it out longer, I think that you need to see WHY you want to... not JUST because of your son, your son will grow up, and leave one day. And then what?

You need to decide WHY your H is good for YOU. What he brings to the M... and go from there.

From where I am sitting, it does not seem to be a happy situation, for anyone. And since he is not embracing reconciling with you, it must be really hard.

I think that you really need to weigh out your options here... JMHO...

I really wish you the best. And you deserve the BEST. Remember that!

I worry about my financial future, i worry for my son, and I worry that PWC will sink further into an abyss of alcohol and poor choices, blaming the rest of the world. I can't control that, but I can control my choices.

(((SL)))

Long before my H's EA he became a heavy functional drinker. He'd down a 12 pack a night usually starting on Fridays, but then it got to be more every night. Never mean, never nasty, a nice drunk but a drunk none the less. I grew up in an abusive family situation, not drinking there however my F's parents were alcoholics. I would be considered a social drinker on occassion. So in my H's mind this justified that it was ok to drink. I was vocal in my disgust with it. He slowed down then for whatever reason picked up again even more. Voiced my concern and disgust on his beer drinking, so no problem he switched to rum. A 5th lasted 1 night usually. They knew him by name at the ABC store. He has a problem with drinking that seemed to just get worse, I could never figure out why. He said just made him feel good, or not feel.

I think he was dealing alot with depression, but that's not a manly thing so he'd never investigate that issue. He clammed up no talking as to what was bothering him.

From there I went into depression. It was too much. I was holding the family together emotionally. Yes he went to work every day, never called in sick from drinking but pretty much was absent from sharing 'our' life.

This has gone on for years. Why have I tolerated it? I come from a divorced family...I didn't want that. I wanted the "happy ever after'. I 'knew' I could help him, I could make him change. I enabled all over the place.

Unfortunately my girls grew up with that. Both have had drinking problems. Our ODD I thought I had lost to alcohol. Thankfully that has turned around but took a long time and an unplanned pregnancy to do that.

In just the last few weeks I've seen changes taking place in H's drinking. He still might have a few beers but NOTHING like before. No drinking till drunk. Right now I can tolerate that. If it gets worse I'll have to re-evlauate(sp).

As you know, in the last few weeks is also when I've been seeing more positive changes/efforts to rebuild our M.

I say all this to say, I know where you are. I feel for you. I know you are a strong lady and will do what you need to do for you and your son, whatever that is. I'm pulling for you SL, and for your PWC.

In PWC's case, I believe escaping everything is what he is doing. He's not only escaping the effects of the As on me, his son AND HIM, but he's escaping dealing with a lot of other important stuff. He's had a lot of turmoil in his young life. I'm not making excuses, but it makes sense that, for him, it's easier to stuff it and then coat it with a nice thick varnish of alcohol.

Before Dday#1, he did drink to excess with my brother and one of his friends, probably once a week. That drove a huge wedge between us, because we weren't spending much time together on the weekends, and we had DS, so a lot of my time during the day and early evening was monopolized. At the time, I just thought he was being selfish, and immature.


I don't want to continue like this, and I don't want to be part of the problem. In all honesty, I don't see how we will be able to stay together if he chooses to continue on this path.

He doesn't drink at all during the week. Since our conversation last Friday night, he has been more attentive, starting conversations, asking me if I need anything, going with me when I go out. This has been his MO, with every major issue that I bring up, he does this. It's obvious that he feels bad, it shows. Him feeling bad is not about me, though, and I can't make it better. I don't want to live in a world where he lets his guilt dictate when he acts. It has to be from love. Otherwise, it just feels forced, which doesn't make a girl feel loved, really.

I have seen changes in him, but they are generally about TASKS, DUTIES.

I'm just not sure what to do right now, and since I'm not sure, no big decisions will be made. I'm not paralyzed by any means, but I'm unsure. If I were to go with my gut and my disappointment and anger, I would separate. I'm seriously considering at least separating. We have to be separated for a year before we can D.

Did you try to contact BR? She's been on here helping out Froz.

I haven't yet. I started to type out an email last night, but I didn't really know what to say.

I don't know if I'm willing to live with an active alcoholic. How is it even possible to get close enough to them to feel a part of their lives? It SEEMS to be a lot of sacrifice, and detachment. I want more than that. I'll just cut and paste these questions and submit them to her.

IMO, it can only HELP hearing what she has to say, profitting from HER EXPERIENCE.

I was thinking last night that I mispoke saying it would be a dealbreaker for ME...'cause how is it different than living with an INFIDEL..which in my H's case, his AFFAIR was DEFINITELY an ADDICTION...and I enabled his A..for years..when it was staring me right in the face.

Maybe he traded one ADDICTION for another...

THis is what LG said, too. It's a conclusion I had been coming to on my own. PWC is heading down a path, that if continued, could lead to very bad places, and I feel for him, but can't change his course for him.

Right now, when he drinks, he becomes so jovial, so happy-like. It's like Jekkyl and Hyde. It's odd. He USED to be jovial and happy without the drink and just upped the volume on that. Now, he's dark and then he drinks, just a couple, and the light starts to come up. As he continues to drink, the lights come up even more.

When he's with our DS, he laughs out loud; you can see him soaking it up. When he's with me, he shuts down, walls up. I've thought, for the longest time, it has to be me. So, I started to look at how I was, and worked on my anger/resentment and opening up. When you sum it all up, nothing has changed in respect to our closeness. I had hoped that it WAS me, truthfully, because I can change me. It seems to NOT be me.

I did email BR. Just gave her the info that I had, and asked if she was willing to share her info, insights, learning tools, and why she has made the decision to stay and work on the M. Whatever info she gives is fine with me. She doesn't have to say anything, if she's not comfortable. It's really my problem, and I'm not relying solely on one thing to help me make decisions. It's just nice to have info from someone who has been there.

Hey SL,

I wish there was something I could add that would mean anything.

I am thinking of you all.

(((SL)))

Honestly, Chrisner, there's not a lot that anyone can say . I have to make up my mind what course of action to take and then take it.

I have found a local Open Al-Anon meeting that takes place Sunday evening. It is suggested by them that I go to six meetings before making the decision to join a closed group meeting, so that's what I'll do.

I can't say that I will commit to it for the long run, but I'll go and hear what they have to say and make a decision. I don't plan on ending my marriage right now. I don't plan on staying in this same place either.

I have made a lot of strides and have changed a great deal about my LB behaviors. I've learned to be more open, to give because I want to and not to attach conditions to it (ie good behavior, him acting first, him being open and so on). I've also given a lot of time to my anger, to working thru it ,and getting down to root of that anger, which is great sadness. I've lost a lot over the years, but the loss of my partner has challenged me most.

It still challenges me to DO more, TRY more. I just don't know how much more trying for this man I have left in me. Maybe I have OODLES of energy left. I don't really know. All I know is that there may be a way to get through this together, so I'm going to look into it. I'm only slightly commmitted to this process.

I've experienced alcoholism around me most of my life, so it stands to reason that it has affected my choices. I didn't know my father, but he was an alcoholic. The effects on my brother and sister are obvious; poor decision making skills, lack of drive to do better, lack of self worth, their own forays into alcohol and drugs, and so much more. Also, both of my siblings were molested as children, by either family of supposed friends. In terms of what they suffered, physically and emotionally, I came out of childhood fairly unscathed.

I experienced some of this trauma when PWC had his affairs, and it was devastating. I can't imagine growing up feeling like that all of the time. Of the three of us, I seem like I must be adopted, except we all look so much alike. I have always felt alien in my family. I'm beginning to understand that better and better as the days go back and I peel back the layers.

I suffered a great trauma, and it has opened my eyes to so many mistakes and assumptions I have made. They suffered great trauma as CHILDREN, and have struggled with that their entire lives.

Anyway, suffice it to say, I could use some knowledge, regardless of PWC being in my life or not. So I choose to seek guidance and help to heal.

Thanks to all for your posts.

BR has made contact, and her wisdom has helped me a great deal.

Without fixing myself, I will continue to make poor decisions. I have to get help for me, and hopefully, be able to help my son, also.

My husband is an alcoholic. There is nothing I can do to change that. There is nothing I can do to change him. Right now, after absorbing what BR had to say and reading a heck of a lot on the subject just last night, decisions on my marriage, for now, are not appropriate.

Even if we D, my son will still be a large part of PWC's life, and I will probably also be on the fringe of his life. Even if we D, I will still have the same thought process and the same decision making skills, and I fear I will continue to make the same decisions, getting myself into the same relationships, if I don't get help.

It just doesn't make sense now, to not help myself.

WONDERFUL!!



BULLCRAP!! You are putting yourself down on this. YOU ARE A HIGHLY COMMITED PERSON..PERIOD...I SOOO ADMIRE YOU!! YOU ARE RESILIENT!! That's what YOU gained from your ACOA background!!



You might want to check out the ACOA literature. You and I held the same positions in our family...PERFECT DAUGHTERS who take over the PARENTING of everyone in the family and don't know how to take care of ourselves. This has unknowingly been part of your PERSONAL RECOVERY as it was mine, learning to focus on ourselves and that we are actually POWERLESS over the trauma associated with ADDICTIONs and/or our ADDICTED love ones.



You probably were busy FIXING and CARETAKING when you were growing up.



You SUFFERED as a CHILD, too..but that doesn't much matter anymore because NOW you are being HEALED...just as YOU eventually said...




((((SL, MY SISTER))))

Mimi,
I owe you a great deal of gratitude for pushing me to keep working on healing.

I do know that I suffered in a different way, as a child; I was/AM the caretaker. I always felt GUILTY when I succeeded in the traditional ways, in terms of school and work. I underplayed all of my accomplishments, because I didn't want my siblings to feel BAD. My sister voiced how bad she felt, in comparison with me, on a number of occassions. I just told her to stop comparing herself to me.

One thing that is going to happen is that your son is going to grow up to be an ACOA. How he copes with this will be shaped by his life right now. Do you think your son sees the relationship between dad being dark and then lighting up "after a few"? This has to be confusing for him as well. Maybe he needs a little help too?

I never dealt with alcohol in my FOO but I have dealt with it as an adult, my own drinking as a teenager and young adult and my H's bouts with it. My H is an alcoholic. He knows this and knows that if he drinks one drink, it's over for him. With all the crap we went through with his affairs (and alcohol played a big part in that) I know I wouldn't live through that again. He was an outrageous drunk, barely functional. Three of four of my children have had their own alcohol-related issues (I believe as a result of seeing their parents deal with it.)

My heart goes out to you. Alcohol is a jealous mistress.

(((SL)))

This frightens me a great deal. That is why I am starting now, making the effort to learn as much as I can and make better decisions. I cannot stop PWC from having a R with his son, so his son WILL grow up to be an ACOA. There is no stopping that. There is knowledge to guide him and help him deal. There are Alateen meetings also.

First and foremost, his mommy has to get it together.