Does he know you are attending ALANON meetings?

Short answer, yes. There is no long answer right now, as we haven't talked about it.

I'm not USING Alanon to shake him up. I see Alanon as solely about me right now. I have done a number of online meetings and two face to face meetings. I am currently looking for a new meeting, as the one I have attended is open, and it's less structured than I need. I dunno, I just don't like that one. There is another that is on Sunday evening that I'd like to try.

When I focus on PWC, I become angry that I feel like I'm doing YET ANOTHER thing to help us move toward recovery, when the truth is we are not IN recovery. Right now, I have to remind myself that WE are not moving anywhere, that I am taking care of myself. That these meetings have more to do with me, my ISSUES.

I don't have any words of wisdom.

I just wanted to tell you that the work you are doing will pay off, no matter what you decide.

Alanon is a great way to regain your peace of mind and maintain perspective and I think it's great that you are going.

I'm also glad you got your hot tub fixed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SL,

Hey i found your post way down here on page 2 LOL.

I have not been around much the last week or so. When i last posted to mvg i was on top of the hill of the rollercoaster and since then have been down at the bottom.

I hope you are feeling a little better. I have been really concerned about you (this is MY stuff here LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />).

There are a couple of things that i would like to discuss with you that i would rather not post. Would you mind sharing your e-mail address with me? If you do not want to i totally understand and would not be offended in any way.

Thanks SC

SC, I'd be happy to share my email address. When I see your reply, I'll post it.

Feeling better? I don't really know right now, to be honest. I feel different, like a veil has been lifted. I don't much like what I see, though. It's tough to turn that mirror on yourself, looking at my actions in the past. Not outwardly harmful, but controlling and enabling. Wanting to SAVE people, and maintain a rockless-boat for EVERYBODY.

Also, it's hard living in my house right now. Not because of any abuse or anything like that. Just acceptance of my FWH's contributions to our M over the last year. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, in terms of domestic support, he's been taking on his load. I had always hoped that he was STARTING there, and the rest would come with time.

I'm trying not to look at the M right now. I'm just doing the one-day-at-a-time thing. Working toward peace and getting my head on straight. Feeling a little ill right now, I feel a cold coming on. Went out Saturday morning and purchased an adventure game for PS2, and played with my son most of the weekend. He was totally jazzed about it, and it was nice to be with him so much. Lotsa laughing and playing.

Anyhoo, same stuff different day, y'know? It occurred to me that I'm afraid to hope, too. I'm afraid to let that come in and keep me rooted here HOPING something will change, and waiting, like I have been all these months. Probably why I feel the urge to end it now, wondering if that's where we'll wind up anyway. Who needs these thoughts?

I am at work right now but usually check on my breaks and lunch. I will stay online for a little while and see if you are around.

SC,
I'm very curious now, so I look forward to your mail.

Got it SL you can remove it now.

Thanks SC

Be careful with this, SL. There's a delicate balance.
Adult children of alcoholics also take ALL the responsibility when things don't go as they should. You had your piece of this, but others share in it.

I finished reading the Expanded Version of Adult Children of Alcoholics this weekend. Much of hit home - especially the part about not sharing feelings because they were/are unimportant.

It's been one of my main struggles here. As I child, I was told that what I thought was wrong or treated as though it was unimportant. That is reinforced when I come here and am told the same thing by some, that I have to change because how I think and what I feel about a situation is wrong.

While I agree that it is important to look within ourselves and find what we don't like, it's also okay to find things that we DO like and to keep them whether other people agree or not.

I guess I'm warning myself as much as I am warning you to watch for doing too much in trying to "fix" yourself, it's another strive for perfection that we may not reach.

It's okay to like who you are right now in this moment.

I like ya.

Fox

Wow, thanks Foxy!

Oh, I'm outta the fixin others business, but I do think I need to watch out for attempting to control others. As for changing myself, I'm not really changing, so much as peeling the onion. If I'm angry, there's a reason, and I need to recognize it and take a short breath, and then ACT.

I have to admit, that as the days go by, I'm more and more ready to separate and end this marriage. I can read all I want, and attend meetings and get help for myself, but I can't change the marriage. I've tried. IT just doesn't work. I'm not interested in continuing to fight fight fight. I do want my son to be stable and happy, but *I* want to be stable and happy too, and I'm not happy. I'm not miserable, either. I'm indifferent, mostly.

Yes, I would be sad at the ending of this, sure, who wouldn't? I do feel as if I've done all that I can, that is within my knowledge and boundaries. YEs, I could continue to seek more knowledge, and make better boundaries, and I will, but that doesn't change who PWC is. I have virtually lost respect for him, for his lack of compassion, and for his lack of effort.

Heck, he could be who I fell in love with; it could be that I've changed to the point that I can't do this relationship as it is anymore, and he doesn't want to change. It sure seems that way.

I'm not interested in changing for anyone else but myself right now.

Yes, there are many factors that have lead me here, being ACOA is one, but I can't deny the situation. I can't deny the lack of love, from both of us. I just can't deny it. Maybe that makes me sick. Ok, label me sick. I can't say that I'm interested in the cure, as I feel like I will have to go without in order to get THAT cure. I'm just not interested in sacrifice, not even for my son, not in this matter.

I am interested in healing, and it seems that I can do that alone. I've endured three affairs, that I know about (two PA's, one EA). His behavior has not changed. HE is completely unrepentent, and THAT is just not good for me, IMO. I need compassion, heck, even the decency to admit that you hurt me and it wasn't justified. I'm not angry about this, just disappointed.

I'm also not running away. If I end this marriage, I will still have me to deal with, and I'm okay with that. I love myself enough to do what is best for me.

YOU SOUND GREAT!!

Good for you, SL. I'm thankful I can count you as one of my friends.

If you decide to end your M, it will be a sad day. But it can also be a freeing one. You deserve so much more.

Wishing the best for you,

Fox

I still have a nagging feeling each time I think about separation. THat nagging feeling is about my son. I admit that the nagging feeling is also over wanting PWC to be like he used to be with me, but I cannot make that happen. HE has to want to be that way with me again, and he doesn't, not right now. I also think PWC was in fantasyland himself, when he wanted to come home. He wanted the bells and whistles. He wanted that OLD M, that OLD SL, those OLD feelings back. So did I. We can't go back though. We live with so much damage, because WE won't work thru it.

Also, I think about CHANGE; having to move to another place, having to move my son, change his life. When I think about causing DS pain by my decisions, it hurts me to the core, for I never wanted this for him. Well, it is what it is, and I cannot change that.

I can't fathom staying with PWC and us both experiencing more of the same. THat is why I worked MB principles, so that we could have a different R, a better M. AS it is, I just can't see ever being okay with the status quo.

We don't touch; if I'm not doing the touching. We don't hangout, if I'm not making the plans, We don't talk, if I don't start the conversations (or unless he's drunk, ewwwww). We don't laugh. WE don't do anything. He does what he wants, what he FEELS like doing, whilst waiting for his EPIPHANY to just walk on up to him, without LOOKING for it. I wait. I'm not really sure what for anymore. Again, it goes back to hurting my son, and how much I really want to avoid it. I don't think I can. I feel sad, but I think it's inevitable.

We aren't working toward recovery. I was. I don't want to continue beating myself about the head with this, though.

What I need is someone who wants this with me. It's the number one thing that I believe all couples going thru this NEED; a desire to recover. I had it. It's gone. I'm just facing it, that's all.

BR has asked me to give this time, for my own good. I am really trying, really really I am. The more I peel back the layers, the stronger I feel about leaving. Neither of us is happy, not even a little bit. YUCK!

I suppose you've read the American Values acticle called "Does Divorce Make People Happy?"

It talks about how 5 years down the road, the majority of people who stayed married are happy, and the majority who divorced regret it and are still not happy.

SL,

If you are not absolutely certain and have little nagging thoughts - wait. There is no timetable other than the one you set for what you are willing to accept. This is YOUR life.

JMHO.

I've read the article that believer has referenced. I think it depends on the reasons for the divorce and whether the divorced person feels that did all they could do to have a happy marriage.

I think some people divorce because they think it is the easy way out. As you know, where ever you go, there you are. You are doing and have done the work, both in the M and on yourself.

This decision will not be easy, but I believe when you are able to make it you can do so with a good conscience, whether it is to stay or to leave.

Fox

Hmmm, I have read that article and many like it.

Many of these articles do not talk about recovering from infidelity by virtue of just staying together and waiting. I also don't remember if they factored in alcohol abuse.

The DESIRE for things to work out is certainly there, at least, for me. The drive has been there, too.

If you have information on couples truly recovering from infidelity under the conditions of letting time pass, I would be interested to read it.

Thanks for the info, beliver. I have considered this, and even mentioned it to PWC.

Hi SL!

Wish I had something profound to say but I need to keep my record intact.

For what it is worth it sounds like you are reasoning this all out well. Take your time and the answers will come.

Thinking of you SL!!

Does Divorce Make People Happy?

Press Release


Major New Study:

Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom. Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.

Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2

The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.

The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.

Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well. The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.

The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.

Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?

To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.

In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.
In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.
Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
The Powerful Effects of Commitment

Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.

The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.

Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?

The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.

Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.

On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.

More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.

Other Findings

Other findings of the study based on the National Survey Data are:

The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) took place to adults who had been happily married when first studied five years earlier. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.
Unhappy marriages are less common than unhappy spouses; three out of four unhappily married adults are married to someone who is happy with the marriage.
Staying married did not typically trap unhappy spouses in violent relationships. Eighty-six percent of unhappily married adults reported no violence in their relationship (including 77 percent of unhappy spouses who later divorced or separated). Ninety-three percent of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce reported no violence in their marriage five years later.


Endnotes

1. Examples of the "divorce assumption:" In a review of Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So Well by Ashton Applewhite in Kirkus Reviews, the reviewer writes that "if Applewhite's figures are correct, three-fourths of today's divorces are initiated by women, and if her analysis of the situation is correct, they are better off, at least psychologically, for having taken the big step." The book's publisher describes the book this way: "Cutting Loose introduces 50 women . . . who have thrived after initiating their own divorces. . . . [T]heir lives improved immeasurably, and their self-esteem soared." In an oped in the New York Times, Katha Pollit asks, "The real question . . . [is] which is better, a miserable two-parent home, with lots of fighting and shouting and frozen silences and tears, or a one-parent home (or a pair of one-parent homes) without those things" (June 27, 1997). In a review of The Good Divorce by Constance R. Ahrons in Booklist, we are told that Ms. Ahrons "offers advice and explanations to troubled couples for whom 'staying together for the sake of the children' is not a healthy or viable option."

2. Spouses were asked to rate their overall marital happiness on a 7-point scale, with 1 being the least happy and 7 the most happy. Those who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 were considered to be very unhappy in their marriages. Almost 8 out of 10 adults who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 gave that same marriage a 5 or more when asked to rate their marriage five years later.

Ahhh, in rereading the report, they do discuss that some marriages, even those dealing with serious issues, such as infidelity and substance abuse, do turn around.

I wonder why, though? Is this because one of the spouses gets USED to the condition of the marriage? Is it because the children are happy, and therefore, help the spouses to feel better about their decision to stay together, or their lack of initiative to divorce? The problem with many of these articles is that there are too many variables to consider, so you can't rule out a couple just giving up on what they really need and settling.

Also, how many of these couples were in a maelstrom of h3ll, and feel happier now, because they no longer live in that turmoil regularly? So aren't you still settling then?

I honestly can't say that I will be able to live in a marriage where touch doesn't exist. It just makes me sick to think of that.

Also, the articles talk about remarrying, which I would have no plans for. I've been told that it IS possible to be happy in the type of marriage I have. I'm unsure if that's what I want.

Like Foxy stated, don't make decisions if there is something NAGGING.

The thought of ripping my son's life apart nags at me and always has, even when PWC was active in his affairs, I did all I could to keep the marriage together.

Now, my DS, my wonderful son, he is happy.

That alone, could keep me in this marriage, for there is not a lot there for me. Financially, my life would be easier. If I live in a state of detachment, my emotional state will be fine, but how is that even a marriage?

I'm writing my struggle, how I feel. Hopefully, I will find clarity.

I often wonder how long it will be until another affair occurs. PWC is not coming to me to have his needs met. HE seems completely indifferent to the whole process, like he's not even there. I suppose I could just stay and cross my fingers.

(((SL)))