OK, I totally agree about the meeting your spouse's most important emotional needs as one of the ways to reduce the likelihood of your spouse cheating. I don't object to the MB principles regarding emotional needs.

However, I want to add some thoughts about emotional needs for further discussion.

IMHO having your most important emotional needs met by your spouse is sort of a right every married person should expect their spouse to do their best to meet.

But as with any right along with that comes certain responsibilities too. IMHO each married person has a responsibility:

1) to determine what their own most important emotional needs are

2) to honestly evaluate whether or not their own needs are valid, healthy, achievable, fair

3) to clearly, consistently, cooperatively communicate to their spouse what their most important emotional needs are

4) to allow their spouse to meet their most important emotional needs

5) to prohibit anyone else besides their spouse from meeting their most important emotional needs

6) to stay in communication with their spouse regarding how well they feel the spouse is meeting their most important emotional needs

7) to fully cooperate with their spouse in steps 1-6 regarding their spouse's most important emotional needs

I have yet to hear of a single WS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs. IMHO the 'failure' of the BS to meet the most important emotional needs of the WS is often directly related to the WS' failure to take responsibility themselves.

meremortal ~

I totally agree with you here, on these points. I see a few problems (BIG ONES that lead to affairs), which would be:

1.) most people, before their marriages hit any sort of crisis, are not aware of "emotional needs". We don't have a name for them, and we don't understand them.

We might know that *something* is missing from our marriages, but we can't put our finger on it because we don't fully understand the concept.

2.) Even if we DO, many of us have big issues with communication. We think our spouse should "know us well enough" to be meeting our emotional needs without explicit direction (we have since learned otherwise, haven't we?). I mean afterall, they sure knew how to meet our ENs when we were dating, right?

3.) And lastly , I would add to your number 4 that we should ONLY allow our spouses to meet our most important emotional needs.

That one word ~ ONLY ~ is crucial. So your point in number 5 is also crucial ~ to PROHIBIT anyone outside of the marriage to meet those most important ENs.

This is very true.

I also have yet to hear of a single WS who had recently been meeting their BSs ENs. Because feelings follow ACTIONS, and if they HAD BEEN, then an affair would not have happened.

Most WSs are FREELOADERS or possibly semi-RENTERS. They ain't meetin' ANYONE'S ENs, because their TAKER is stuck in overdrive, and their GIVERS have been given the shaft.

Also, much of this info is like hearing a foreign language to most people. I have been here for over a year, and I am still barely grasping some of these concepts.

BUT...they work. DH and I are spending tons of time together...all of our free time, in fact...because we WANT to, because we are falling in love again. We are talking more than ever and in many ways our communication is reaching a different level( we still have a long ways to go). But we had to learn this new "foreign language", and the dynamics of all of this (which would include the points you listed above) before we could get there.

Lots of great thoughts here, mm...I would love to hear what others have to say!

I also think this touches some on BOUNDARIES...mainly our own...which is another word / concept that most of us had never even HEARD of before the A-Bomb was dropped on our laps.

"most people, before their marriages hit any sort of crisis, are not aware of "emotional needs". We don't have a name for them, and we don't understand them."

I agree. Especially when we were younger, when most of us started our marriages, we probably didn't even know yet ourselves what our own most important emotional needs were, let alone our spouse's. We get married because we feel 'in love' with each other... and then realize later that maybe we aren't really offering each other what each really wants/needs (when the honeymoon is over).

NOW I know what my most important emotional needs are and what my WH's are, but neither of us had any clue throughout most of our 25 year long marriage. I honestly don't know if it would have helped in our situation if I had found out about the His Needs/Her Needs info sooner. In any case it might have helped me realize a LOT sooner that my WH didn't really care what I wanted or needed. Basically, he gave what he assumed would then entitle him to cheat: financial support.

You know how some magazines have those questionnaires you can answer about your personal preferences and then a summary of 'your style' based on your answers? I think it would be helpful if there were a similar questionnaire to be used as a tool to help determine what your most important emotional needs are. The questions are sort of like which type of date or gift do you prefer and then there's some options to choose from.

Gary Chapman has such in his Love Languages book and on his web site. But the Harley questionaires are also pretty good.

I've thought a lot about this topic over the past few years and have brought it up now and then in posts here.

But last night I had this dream where my WXH was involved with an OW and had brought her to some sort of event one of our daughters was to perform in. In my dream I went right up to the OW and informed the people sitting around her that she was an OW, that she was committing adultery with my husband. I also told her that she didn't belong there at the event - that she was an intruder.

Then I walked away from her and up to my WH (for some reason they were not sitting together at the moment) and told him that his adulteries and our failed marriage were his fault. I stated that not only had he failed to meet my emotional needs but that he had taken no responsibility to communicate to me what his needs were, had not dealt with his past problems so that his needs would be realistic and healthy, had not allowed me to meet his needs, and had not prevented OW from meeting his needs.

Then I just walked away from him too.

I woke up from this dream feeling very calm and satisfied - not upset.

It gave me some sense of closure.

Wierdness...

Thanx BigKahuna.

By the time I found MB's it was pretty much too little too late for my situation (although I did manage to do a good enough Plan A for the final 6 weeks before the divorce was to be final - good enough to influence WH to just sign year-long separation agreement instead of going through with divorce right then).

I had forgotten about the emotional needs questionnaire here! I will take another look at it - it's been years since I first came here and read everything.

I'd also heard about that languages of love concept but never read the book.

In my case since some of my WH's 'needs' were inappropriate and/or addictions I don't know how much it would have helped us.

Active WS's have some 'needs' (expectations) that BS's should not try to meet, cake-eating sort of things...

No kidding LOL.

The Chapman book is pretty good.

I find Harleys approach far more practical and systematic though. Appeals to the engineer in me.

Hi Mere:

Your post was what made me realize that I had more to say and I don't recall ever posting to you before.

Now that WE have a GREAT MARRIAGE my H and I meet each others' PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Most importantly we live by the FOUR RULES of an SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE as stated by Dr. Harley. We are open and honest with each other, negotiate (POJA), spend lots of fun time together, etc.

Before my H's affair, our marriage was crappy and in lots of trouble. I wasn't meeting his needs and he wasn't meeting mine FOR MANY YEARS. WE DID NOT HAVE THE SKILLS that WE USE NOW. It REALLY was my H who wanted to WORK AS A TEAM moreso than me. He got to see a GREAT MARRIAGE. His parents have been married FOREVER...mine..well, that's a long story...

You say this:



The point I want to make is..ONCE an AFFAIR STARTS.. ACTUALLY successfully MEETING the spouses ENs is NOT POSSIBLE..that's the point of PLAN A..to show THE CAPACITY to meet the ENs that were not being met....

ONCE THE AFFAIR STARTS..most of the ENs are being met by the OP...there is EMOTIONAL DETACHMENT between the wayward and the betrayed...THE LOVE BANK IS ONLY OPEN FOR THE OP...

But basically I AGREE WTIH YOU...for my H, having an affair was THE EASY WAY OUT..he WAS an EMOTIONAL CRIPPLE..A COWARD..like any other ADDICT ..he chose the QUICK FIX..rather than CHOOSING to ACTIVELY WORK on OUR MARRIAGE..or to ADDRESS the PROBLEMS...THE DRUG was AVAILABLE..and HE USED...

HE DID NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ASKING FOR WHAT HE WANTED AND NEEDED FROM ME....and if he did, I wasn't listening...how and why should I/could I..we were sooo EMOTIONALLY DETACHED from each other...

Abslutely 100% agree. Well said Mimi.

Sadly, I think the inverse of this statement is likely true also:

I have yet to hear of a single BS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs. IMHO the 'failure' of the WS to meet the most important emotional needs of the BS is often directly related to the BS' failure to take responsibility themselves.

Mrs. W TRIED communicating her needs to me...She didn't necessarily do it the way I liked it or wanted it to be communicated to me...but she tried. I tried as well...but in a totally conflict avoiding manner using mostly passive aggressive behaviors.

IMHO, none of us ended up here while sitting on a pile of money, having sex, going out alone without the kids every weekend and talking until the sun comes up.

In MOST situations, prior to the affair, the lack of needs meeting was 50-50 or somewhere near there.

Mr. Wondering

Excellent discussion.

I think one of the problems with the whole idea of emotional needs is that few of us know how to work out what our needs are. It's not all that simple or obvious.

Most of us are willing to acknowledge 'white needs' like the ones on the Harley list; needs that any healthy person might legitimately have. Few us are willing to own up to ourselves about our 'dark needs', the unhealthy ways we quell our own anxiety or internal pressures. We don't own up to needing to pick a fight to get to a feeling of self-righteousness, or to nursing a deep sense of anger against authority that is relieved by doing something to damage our spouse, or to using our kids as an accessory while telling ourselves we love them, or to craving the kind of attention you get at the start of an affair.

I think most of us have 'dark needs' that we hide from ourselves, and no amount of 'white need' meeting is going to balance us.

Until we tease out the dark needs that gnaw at us subconsciously, and come to terms with them, we'll always struggle with a grumbling sense of discomfort and discontent.

A WS who fails to identify the dark needs that drove him/her to act as s/he did, will instead project the issues onto the marriage and the spouse, where they don't belong. Nothing can get solved, and the recovery will stall.

TA

I think that it may especially be true in marriages that survive an A.

I know that in our situation, in lieu of meeting needs, we both did a lot of what we viewed as "sacrificing" in the misguided opinion that it was a good and necessary thing in a marriage. Of course, it was not.


A great description of what we went through as well.

We understand so much more now.

PK

Hi MM,

Most of the discussion about ENs happens on the EN board, and I really hope you'll also post your comments there, because I think your observations are important whether infidelity is present or not. I find your comments interesting....and despite the fact that I've seen a few of your comments discussed before....I don't think I've seen them all together in one post.

OK, I totally agree about the meeting your spouse's most important emotional needs as one of the ways to reduce the likelihood of your spouse cheating. I don't object to the MB principles regarding emotional needs.

I agree that ignoring your spouses ENs creates vulnerability, confusion, unhappiness, disatisfaction etc., but I think the "likelihood" for cheating is as much about the "character" of the one who cheats as it is about vulnerability or lack of need-meeting. I say this because I see many many spouses whose needs go unmet for years....who still don't cheat. Out of my husband and I....if ANYBODY should have been ripe to cheat....it would have been me. But it wasn't. Not only that, but he didn't cheat because his needs weren't met....I was the one with unmet needs. He was the one with entitlement issues and weak morals....but a dedicated wife who tried hard to meet his needs.

However, I want to add some thoughts about emotional needs for further discussion.

IMHO having your most important emotional needs met by your spouse is sort of a right every married person should expect their spouse to do their best to meet.

I think that having your ENs met by your spouse is part of the convenant you make to each other when you marry. I think it's part of your reasonable expectations when you marry. I think it's a healthy goal for every marriage. But a "right"....hmmmmm, I don't know. What if I'm an abusive person....do I still have that right? What if I refuse to meet my spouses needs....do I still have that right? What if I cheat on my spouse....do I still have that right? I'm not sure it's a "right", as much as I believe it's a gift that we give each other. I fill my husband's needs because I love him....even when he doesn't deserve it. It's my gift to him....not my desire to fulfill his "rights" or to have my "rights" fulfilled. Needs are not rights we can demand, but yearnings, that if unfulfilled, can damage and weaken the marriage.

But as with any right along with that comes certain responsibilities too. IMHO each married person has a responsibility:

I like the responsibilities you've listed....because they are paramount towards a healthy marriage, but I don't think that EN meeting is a right or a guarantee of marriage. There are many times, when my husband has not "earned" the right to have his needs met. Even so....there are times I meet them anyway....and that's about ME...not HIM. It's about who I am because I respect my marriage and know what it means to build a good marriage.

1) to determine what their own most important emotional needs are

This would be ideal. No one can communicate their needs without identifying them. For people who read this program, I think it's a lightbulb moment to discover a term for their yearnings. Many people who come here think their spouse should "know" what their needs are....and not enough of them take the time to identify them and communicate them....giving their spouse the information to strengthen the marriage.

2) to honestly evaluate whether or not their own needs are valid, healthy, achievable, fair

I'm not sure Dr. Harley asks anyone to evaluate needs for validity, health or fairness. In fact, if I understand him correctly, he says that whether they're fair or not....they are valid and real. For instance, let's say that a woman has a top EN of "financial support", but she marries a teacher. It might not be "fair" for her to expect lavish vacations to make her happy....but not having them will still make her unhappy....fair or not. It might not be fair for a man to lose interest in his wife if she gains weight because of childbirth....but Harley says....he will still wish for a thinner wife and feel unfulfilled if he doesn't have one.

What he does say about "rights and "fairness" as they relate to ENs (HNHN) is that the spouse meeting the needs has a "right" to be the one who does it:


You say that in marriage we have a "right" to have our needs met. Harley says, that in a marriage whe have a "right" to be the one who meets our spouses needs. Maybe they're both true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

3) to clearly, consistently, cooperatively communicate to their spouse what their most important emotional needs are

Yes.....communication is the key. Too often, so much tragedy can be averted with honesty and openess about what we need.

4) to allow their spouse to meet their most important emotional needs

Absolutely (and this is what Harley was saying above), because to allow other people to do it....is unethical within the bounds of marriage. It's risky and makes the marriage so vulnerable.

5) to prohibit anyone else besides their spouse from meeting their most important emotional needs

Yes...same thing.

6) to stay in communication with their spouse regarding how well they feel the spouse is meeting their most important emotional needs

As long as "how well" is not a judgement. Generally, we encourage people to communicate about needs using *I* statements and avoiding *you* statements.

7) to fully cooperate with their spouse in steps 1-6 regarding their spouse's most important emotional needs

Need-meeting is definitely best when it's a reciprocal process. Imbalances....where one spouse is doing most of the work is fodder for trouble. It's not unusual for one spouse to be the "giver" and one the "taker", but that kind of imbalance creates instability and vulnerability.

I have yet to hear of a single WS who has fulfilled their responsibilities regarding their own most important emotional needs.

I'm not sure what this means. I think my WH was very clear about his own needs. Even after the affair and counseling with Steve....he said I had always done a good job of meeting his needs. I actually think that it was my own failure as the BS, to allow my OWN needs to go unmet that actually put us in more peril. If I had been better about enforcing boundaries about the vast amount of time his job kept us apart....I would have been much better off. Instead, I was sacrificial and that created resentment and vulnerability.

IMHO the 'failure' of the BS to meet the most important emotional needs of the WS is often directly related to the WS' failure to take responsibility themselves.

Not in my case, and not in many other cases I've seen here. I've seen many hardworking and loving BSs who didn't fail to meet needs...and who still had vulnerability, incompatibility, and irresponsible and morally weak WS who had affairs.

Nice topic....please do post in EN too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

about that dream I had...

I've been feeling more and more of a sense of closure about it all lately. Intellectually I've known for a long time that my WXH's adulteries and the divorce were not my 'fault' that I did pretty much all I could to try to save my marriage (in fact WAY MORE than anybody else I know whould have tried). But emotionally I still would have lots of moments of just feeling not good enough and rejected.

I also had a very tough time giving up the hope that someday maybe he would not only get over the latest OW enough to want to reconcile but would also be ready to admit that he has a serial adultery problem and would be willing to fix that problem so we could remarry.

I know now that whatever it is I meant to him, that his problems are much bigger than that, and that even if he did someday want to change I should not ever again trust him enough to give him another chance.

I think that dream I had was closure for me. I was not feeling rejected or inadequate in that dream when I confronted my WH and the OW. There was no feeling of fear that the OW maybe was better than me in any way. There was no hurt or anger feeling on my part in that dream. I was just matter-of-factly stating to them what their adultery was and what my WXH's problem was. Just as if I was telling them what the weather was like outside. Nothing more.

Wierdness of calm after all those years of fear, hurt, bitterness.

Anyway, the main point of what I was telling my WXH in that dream was that it was his failure to deal with his own emotional needs in a responsible way that caused the whole mess (and will continue to cause messes in HIS future BTW - but not in mine)

Hi Mimi,

I'm very happy for you that you now have a happy marriage.

"Now that WE have a GREAT MARRIAGE my H and I meet each others' PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS. Most importantly we live by the FOUR RULES of an SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE as stated by Dr. Harley. We are open and honest with each other, negotiate (POJA), spend lots of fun time together, etc."

I think it's when I learned about theses concepts here at MB's that I started to realize that even if/when my WXH's adultery with the latest OW ended he would not have what it takes to build a successful marriage. Still I had hope and wanted to do the right thing to try to keep my marriage and family together. The POJA thing I absolutely can't envision my WXH EVER agreeing to!

"Before my H's affair, our marriage was crappy and in lots of trouble. I wasn't meeting his needs and he wasn't meeting mine FOR MANY YEARS. WE DID NOT HAVE THE SKILLS that WE USE NOW. It REALLY was my H who wanted to WORK AS A TEAM moreso than me. He got to see a GREAT MARRIAGE. His parents have been married FOREVER...mine..well, that's a long story..."

I think that is so common, we all get married while still in that 'in love' phase and maybe just assume that feeling will last forever? I'm like you in that my parents' marriage wasn't so great... But I honestly did realize it would take work to keep a marriage happy AND I wanted to do that work. What I didn't realize soon enough was how bad my WXH's parents' marriage was and that he intended to have a marriage just like theirs! Yikes!

I absolutely agree with this.

Good Post Starfish.

just want to say thanks to those that posted about this sentence. it upset me last night. of course, i didn;t post about it, i didn't want the contraversy!!

so thanks to those more capable of doing that right now.