This question is 100% genuine and I would really appreciate replies.

On this site, I’ve noticed a lot of post from people who are fighting to get their relationship back on track despite the fact their partner/spouse is either completely disinterested/uncommitted to the relationship, or overtly wants the relationship to end.

My questions is simply enough- why do people still want to build a relationship with someone who clearly not trying to build a relationship with them? Why invest in a person who is uninterested in investing in you?

I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way, I am simply fascinated, and trying to build my own opinions of marriage and commitment.

All responses will be appreciated and respected.

goanna, because often the only reason the WS is disinterested is because of the affair and affairs never last. A whopping 95% of affairs crumble in under 2 years.

That being said, Dr. Harley doesn't recommend doing anything except a very short Plan A, which demonstrates that the BS is willing to meet his needs and forgive him if the affair ENDS. For women, he recommends a 3 weeks Plan A, for men it can vary depending on the circumstances. After that, he recommends Plan B if the affair does not end. Plan A only effectively ends about 15% of affairs, so most do go into Plan B until the affair ends.

Because it's often more than a relationship, it's a marriage. And often there are children relying on their parents to build, rebuild, fix and continually invest and reinvest in that marriage.

It's more than a relationship, it's a life time commintment. And it's a family that hangs in the balance.

Why wouldn't one want to try and save their family?

If people let feelings determine their course of action when a marriage gets put to the trial, no marriage would make it past the honeymoon stage.

goanna,


We talk all the time about how fighting infidelity is "counter-intuitive". What we mean by that is that intuitions would tell you that it's pointless to try to save a marriage with a partner who seems disinterested...but in most cases of infidelity....that intuition would be wrong. The biochemistry of affairs wears off quickly.....and often a wayward spouse who was ready to end their marriage during the fantasy high of an affair....wakes up and returns to the marriage. We see this again and again. Waywards are confused, muddled and not thinking clearly. Most of us here think that marriages are worth the effort to outlast that kind of foggy thinking and see if they feel the same way after using some of these infidelity busting strategies.


Marriage is not a static thing. What a wayward feels today....can change rapidly with the volatility of affair dynamics. WSs rarely know what they really want when they're in the throes of addictive behavior to the fantasy. We prefer to give the marriage a chance before believing the words of such foggy logic.


The word "fascinated" is a little odd to me. What do you mean? You're fascinated by what you see as futile attempts? If you think that....stick around longer and see just how many of those WSs who were so "sure" that they didn't want to be married married anymore....come back.

It happens everyday here.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Goanna,

I will try to answer your question by asking questions from the perspective of a person fighting to save their marriage from adultery:

OK, from the perspective of the betrayed spouse, it's puzzling as to why so many people view their spouse and their marriage as something disposable, short-term.

Why do people who think that way about marriage even bother to get married in the first place?
Basically they don't view marriage as being any more permanent than 'going steady'?
I wonder if they were honest about this when they married?
Did they inform their new spouse that to them marriage means nothing and that as soon as they get bored or find somebody new they will be divorcing?

It's a pretty well-known fact that in ALL marriages the honeymoon eventually ends and then each partner must work to build a fulfilling marriage.

So why do so many people just dump their spouse for an adulterer when it's time to work on the marriage?
Have they forgotten what they previously understood about ALL relationships - that once the initial 'puppy love' stuff fades real work is required?
Have they naively assumed that the adulterous relationship will somehow be immune from this fact of life?
Are they totally unaware of the statistics that adulteries rarely result in marriage?
Haven't they ever heard that the divorce rates for 2nd and 3rd marriages are MUCH higher than the divorce rates for first marriages?

If the problem is that the adulterous spouse naively assumed that no work should be required to maintain a relationship, then of course they won't put any work into their adulteries either. So the adulteries, which rarely result in marriages anyway, will not last either.

So what's the point in destroying a lifelong friendship, marriage, family over an adulterous relationship that won't 'work' either? At SOME point the adulterous spouse will come to a realization of the fact that ALL relationships require work. It is in the best interest of all involved, before the marriage and family is needlessly destroyed, for the adulterous spouse to realize this sooner rather than later.

When I married it was a lifetime committment, not just going steady with a big party, big white dress, and big cake...

I would not have started a family with a man that I didn't believe would stand by us.

Eventually I realized that my spouse had some serious flaws BUT I still had made a committment to him plus now also had a committment to try to keep my marriage and family together for the sake of my children too.

In all honesty, what I can't comprehend is why OW, obviously knowing ahead of time that my WH was an adulterer, knowing that he has children and that if they get involved with him they would be helping him destroy his family, still chose to get involved with him!

They KNOW ahead of time what I didn't know about his character, but they still somehow convince themselves that he will be faithful to them and any children they might have?

Wierdness IMHO

The bottom line is that adulterers view ALL relationships as disposable, as not requiring them to put any effort into them. Adulterers are takers. Such people should stick to dating and never marry anyone, let alone bring children into this world.

Then there are those who are so woefully ignorant of the facts of life, so naive in their thinking that they actually believe that they and their adultery partner are 'special', that the marriage they are destroying just wasn't 'special' in that way so it doesn't count... IMHO such people are just too silly and naive to even be dating anyone yet let alone destroying one marriage to try to start another one. They need to be by themselves for a while and just grow up first. Unfortunately, the innocent children they spawn usually grow up before they do... partly because those innocent children are robbed of their childhood because of the selfishness of such an adulterous parent...

welcome goanna, What is your story? Are you married, dating anyone, single, divorced?

I can't speak for all the BS's on the board, but I can speak to my desire to salvage my relationship with my WW despite all of the horiffic things she has put me and our children through in the last 3 months.

For me, it's quite simply love. I know that Harley speaks of the Love Bank and deposits and withdraws.. and there is a lot of logic in that, and in the metaphor it is meant I agree completely with it.

For me though, just as many can say there are several different 'types' of affairs, I say there are different 'types' of love as well.

From a character standpoint, people who are particularly prone to affairs crave the 'type' of love that exists in romance novels and High Schools.. the puppy love, affection, adoration, SF based 'love' that burns intently but most of us here know and can tell you doesn't 'last'.

The BS's on this board for the large part have a deep love for 'family'. This is the -same- type of love a parent has for a child, or between siblings, where there is a depth and strength of love that exists despite the despicable things we are all capable of, that hurt the ones who care about us, and who we care about the most. This is a love that can last forever.. this is a 'deeper' love that successful marriages share. This is also the type of love the BS typically hopes to build with the WS in the course of following MB principles and through recovery.

Trust is another component, and surely all of the BS's here know and understand that the 'innocence' of their marriage is gone, and you know what.. for most of us, that's not necessarily an -entirely- bad thing.

I think its a good question.

I fought for my marriage because I had to. Not for her, but for me. I fought because I made a promise to her. I didn't promise to only keep my promise if she kept hers. The promises I made were about ME, about who I am and what I believe.

I fought for my daughter, who needs two loving parents to become the best person she can become, and if it didn't work out I had to be able to look her in the eyes for the rest of my life and tell her that I did EVERYTHING I could do.

I fought because I believed it was important, and I believed it was worth fighting for, and still do. Its times like these that define a person. It isn't only about succeeding, sometimes it just doesn't work out, sometimes it can't be fixed. Fortunately it appears that isn't the case for me, but there were many times where I questioned and doubted and thought about bagging it all and moving on, but I couldn't do that, I had to KNOW that if my marriage ended, it wasn't because I didn't try.

Honestly, I am not sure why I am trying so hard.

My H is NOT having an affair, so it's not like his brain is in the fog.

Basically, it appears that he wants to try to find someone else to fall in love with, but he isn't having as easy of a time as he thought he would.

I had never read the thing about 3 weeks in plan A. I have been probably trying to do a plan A for 18 months. I still can't seem to just let him go, nor he me.

To this day H says he loves me a great deal, doesn't regret our time together, considers me his best friend, is attracted to me, says we have a great sex life...but "something" is missing. He moved out Aug 4th and the longest he has gone without seeing me is around 10 days. He has said that he sleeps better when he's with me; that he misses me a great deal. So why we are doing this is beyond me.

I found his profile on Match.com that he posted right when he moved out. Turns out it's not so easy to replace me. (His words.)

Lately he has been saying that he is afraid if he comes back that he will end up wanting to leave again in 3 months. (His emotions run in cycles.)

We did a MB weekend and that totally tipped him over the edge.He is not one for structure and trying to eek out that 15 hours/wk just polarized him to want to go.

If he had said he hated me or we fought all the time or we never had sex, maybe I would let him go. I feel like we have all the makings for an amazing marriage--but he won't fully commit.

No, I am not sure why I do this....And I am not sure I can move to plan B.

Sassygal - how are you so sure he isn't having an affair.

He sure seems to be!

Likes cake too.

SG, I would bet the house he is having an affair. Match.com is very effective...even for cheaters. If he has a pulse, he is dating people from there.

Your should be in Plan B NOW. You are having sex with a man that most likely has been screwing other women. BAD move.
Your H is talking a good game just enough to keep you interested.
He is a bum and should be shown the door.

Plan B.


[color:"red"] I just read through some of your posts, your H is certainly having affairs. Please protect yourself and develop a plan...unless you like living in chaos. You have been floundering for over a year and yet you refuse to stand up an be counted. the time for change is now. [/color]

The reasons I believe he is not having an affair:
*He has told me he intends to date others; that we can't exclusively date. BUT, physical exclusivity is something he can offer. (IOW, he is being very upfront about that.)
*The match.com profile is gone. (I found it, gave him a bunch of crap about it and he's removed it.)
*He says there isn't a lot he can be proud of, but he is proud that he hasn't cheated (physically.)
*He told me about an online EA he had. (A couple years ago.)
*When he first left he wanted us to feel "totally broken up" and during that time he did go on dates; had the opportunity to have sex , but the, um, plumbing wouldn't cooperate which made him realize he is more confused about me than he thought.
*Once he realized that, he came back and wanted us to date; and we were seeing eachother A LOT. (All weekend, that sort of thing.)
(Things have since petered out.)

No, I don't think he is actually (physically) cheating. I think that he is actively trying to find someone to fall in love with, since "something" is missing with us. I think that he believes the grass is greener elsewhere and is trying to see if it's true. (So far, it's not.)

Yes, I'm an idiot who has been trying for a LONG time and he does just enough to keep me hooked in. I love him and I feel like I made a commitment to stick by him.

Here is where I get messed up: I can't say "Until you have No Contact with __"whomever"_, I don't want to talk to you." There is no whomever, no fog, per se. He just wants to be "independent" and "figure out who he is". How can I 'punish' him for that?

If we ASSUME he isn't cheating; how would you deal with that?

Sassy:

He stated that he intends to date. How is that not cheating?

This is perfect situation for plan B, IMHO. Do not reward him. Let him know that you are open to a relationship with him, but while he is out playing the field, you are not available to meet his needs. When he is ready to recommit to you and only you, then perhaps you can move forward.

You can't move forward with someone who is moving in another direction.

Because we are separated (he lives in an apartment right now) it is harder for me to see it as cheating. (Assuming there isn't anything physical going on.) I mean, I can't say that if a guy asked me out to dinner I would say "no". I would probably go out to dinner with someone and not consider it cheating.

When he moved out, we signed an informal separation agreement that (among other things) said we could date [others] but that sexual contact was strongly discouraged and was to be immediately disclosed if it occured. Believe it or not, this was a "win" for me. When he first talked about moving out, I had said that I thought we should discuss boundaries on sex and he vehemently said that there was no way he would agree to anything, that the whole point of him moving out was to feel free. By the time he actually moved out (a month later) he was the one that suggested that sexual contact be strongly discouraged.

How can I say "I know we agreed that dating others was "okay" but now I consider it cheating."?

H had said that he wanted he and I to "date" so that he could better figure out what he wants to do. In the past, I was a fuddy duddy and overweight (thyroid issues) and I have corrected that now. I feel compelled to show him that I am not that "old" person. He brings up stuff from the past that no longer applies, assumes that I won't want to do things that I would like to do; I guess I am auditioning for my own marriage. About a month back, when things were backsliding again (I was starting to pressure him to come home) I said "Are we dating exclusively?" And he said "So far, yeah." He then told me to slow WAY down. His analogy "It's like you're talking about getting married on a second date. Stop pressuring me."

I am in serious need of 2x4s and I know it. I am quite good at rationalizing the situation.

To get back to the original question about fighting to save a relationship where someone clearly doesn't want to be with you; my H is NOT clear on that point. Or is he?

You're married; it's cheating, Sassy. Just because he's being honest about his wickedness, makes it no less wicked. He wants you and 'them'. How is that okay with you?

My LSA said the same thing, Sassy. That is what someone else wrote, NOT what I believe. You are going to have to figure out what you believe, where your boundaries are and start living THAT life. Right now, you are living by HIS rules, which are tainted and seriously scewed.

Separating from you and making it clear that he wants to 'date' other women IS cheating.

Sassy:

Everyone has the right to realize they made a mistake and to attempt to rectify it.

I encourage you to be strong and stand up to this affront to your marriage. Give him and either/or ultimatum. If he can have his cake and eat it too, he will.

Get all those who are in favor of your marriage on your side, perhaps even to talk some sense in to him!

OMG - I think you're being CONNED, BIG TIME. I think he's telling you that to convince YOU to remain exclusive, while he plays the field!



So, what does he expect you to do - wait around until he finds someone else...?


Translation: When WH can't find someone new for a "booty-call" he reverts to his "fallback" plan. YOU are his fallback plan.

OMG, OMG, OMG...

Do you think that little of yourself that you are prepared to wait around while he looks for a replacement?

PLAN B or PLAN D (and I'll vote for the latter) are the only real options I'm seeing here.

Sassy - You need a rectal-cranial inversion. (aka pull your head out). He is cheating most probably sexually.

Sassy,

Please listen to these people. What he is asking of you is indecent, disgusting and does not bode of love at all.

This man is either a sociopath who doesn't care about human decency and the treatment of others...or a little boy masquaradig as a man.

Find yourself a good support group, either here or some where else and find the strength to stop allowing this.

He's got you bamboozled big time.

He's hurting you and you are allowing it. Probably because he's a crazy maker.

Too bad we couldn't get him alone with the guys on your thread here for half an hour. They'd give him an earfull real quick on what it means to be a man and to love one's wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Part of my 'bamboozlement' (lol, I love the word bamboozle) is that currently he pays all the bills with the exception of the rent on his apartment (that I cover.) We still have a joint checking account where the majority of his paycheck is deposited and all household bills are paid out of.

I sell real estate and so my income is hit and miss; especially this time of year.

His lease is up at the end of January.

I cannot afford Our house on my own, nor do I want to.

Currently, this house has "him" written all over it (his collections, his car, his tools, half the closet still has lots of his stuff, etc.) He WILL be moving back here, the question is whether or not I am staying. I run two business out of the house, one of which requires alterations to the house. I hate moving. (I'm going somewhere with this line of thought, really.)

If I do a Plan B, I am afraid that he will tell me to move out of the house, or worse, request a divorce. If I move out, I will be purchasing a house and that seems like a rather drastic move...OTOH, I find it hard to imagine moving forward in a house that ultimately will never be mine.

I am SO twisted up with this I can't think straight.

My brain knows that this is BS, why can't my heart know it? Why do I keep hoping? Of course, with him saying "I love you a great deal. You're my best friend. I'm always going to love you. I'm confused" it keeps me roped in.

This appears to almost be "worse" than if he was having an affair...