This morning, my wife of nine years told me that while she still loves me, and deeply cares for me, she is no longer IN LOVE with me.

We recently (three months ago) dealt with a one-time infidelity issue on her part. But it was just that - one time. I found out before anything escalated. And we agreed to work on things to patch everything up. But now, things have changed.

There is no affair going on. So there's nothing to "expose." But she tells me that she doesn't even want to try marriage counseling, as she doesn't think it will give her that spark back.

I'm irritated at that. As far as I'm concerned, our marriage is worth saving. But she isn't willing to even try.

Do I have any hope here? Could marriage counseling help?

Any help would be appreciated. Right now, I feel dead inside.

I'll give you credit ... you're persistent. This is now the 3rd thread you've started (IMHO), because you didn't like the responses you got from the other 2.

Maybe you'll find someone here who will tell you that you can sweep her A under the rug, refuse to deal with it directly and everything will just be hunky-dorrie from here on out.

IMHO, there is a REASON that your WW doesn't have that "spark" for you anymore ... she has a "spark" for someone else. Whether or not there continues to be a PA, a lingering EA, or just an unnamed "fantasy" OM in her mind ... she is with someone else, and until you realize that, AND TAKE SOME DEFINITIVE ACTION, you will continue to wander aimlessly wondering "WTF is Happening???".

I am here by suggestion from someone else. And for the most part, the suggestions have been good. Is my wife having an affair right now? No. And of that, I am 100% sure. Putting it in the infidelity forum was a mistake on my part. Because that's not where it belongs.

She has no spark right now - none. But she'd like to feel it again. She just doesn't think she can get it again from me. She's not even sure she can ever get it again with anyone.

MWH,

Listen to MR here...

Having seen MR's early posts I can tell you that he did not arrive at the conclusion he is suggesting to you simply because he "feels" it is right or in an effort to be vindictive.

Dr Harley suggests Plan A as a way to out affair the affair partner. By meeting her ENs in the way she needs them to be met, the feelings she has or had for OM begin to be transfered to you because you are basically doing for her what OM was doing. It can be very successful because you are making a concerted effort to do it rather than relying on accidentally getting it right.

But at the same time, you have to kill the love busters. Anything you do that she is unhappy about will cause her to withdraw from you further.

FWIW, you also can't force the issue when it comes to recovery. You have to rebuild the love between you, that is fill her love bank to over flowing much more than trying to solve the problems associated with the A. And until she commits to working on recovery, you are simply spinning your wheels and getting frustrated because you are trying to fix it when what you need to be doing is rebuilding it instead.

But as MR has pointed out, the way she is talking is not indicative of someone who has NC for three months or even three weeks.

My suggestions:

Figure out what her top 3 - 5 ENs are if you haven't already done so. You don't need her to fill out the ENQ to do this, though if she will agree to it, it would make it a lot easier.

Spend as much time actually meeting her top ENs as you can.

Identify Love Busters in your own life and personality and eliminate them.

Spend as much time together with her as you can. Very little of this can be talking about the relationship or what needs to be fixed. Even monopolize her time if possible so that she can;t have any time alone to sulk or to contact OM. Just have fun during this time...NO R talk. NO teaching her about MB. NO correcting her thinking about any of this stuff. Just "date" her and make her feel special.

Once she begins to return to the relationship then and only then can counseling and/or relationship problems be addressed.

Implement the MB methods unilaterally if necessary. Be 100% honest with her. Negotiate using POJA with her. Spend a minimum of 15 hours per week with her doing recreational stuff rather than relationship stuff.

If you do these things for about two months her feelings for you should start to return. If they do not, it is likely that she has someone else waiting in the wings whether they are seeing each other or not. Affairs can be continued for months by text messaging or email without so much as a phone call or glance across a crowded room.

Do you understand the three states of mind in marriage as described by Dr Harley? Your wife is in the state of withdrawal, not to be confused with withdrawal symptoms caused by NC with OM. Your goal at this point is to woo her back into conflict and eventually into intimacy. But you have to solve that problem first. If you try to "fix" things before that happens, there will be nothing left for you to fix.

Plan A is designed to make changes in yourself in an effort to win her back. That has to be the goal. Reasoning, logic, coercion, intimidation, appealing to her memories of the past or "communications exercises" will not do the trick.

Be her knight in shining armor first. You can't fix this in a few weeks or even a few months any way, so win her heart as the beginning step or no other steps will be required.

Mark

I concur.

I guarantee she's still in an affair and hiding it better.

The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" is a dead certainty of an affair especially after an alleged 3 months of NC.

You aren't looking hard enough.

MWH:

Yes, you marriage can be saved.

Please read braeworths Thread.

He was on the merry-go-round for quite a number of months. It seems to be working for him.

Your WW had the A, and went quite willingly, when it started.

Is it over? Is she in NC? Read Brae's thread. He was SURE she was in NC. Until he found out different.

So, do the checking that YOU need to do.

And now:

Everything prior to this?

Easy.

What happens now is MUCH more difficult.

It's called Recovery.

And this is NOT for the faint-hearted.

Recovery is revealing the issues in your marriage that lead your W to the edge of the cliff, and then allowed her to step off.

What issues you created that pushed her to that edge. What things you need to change to bring her back.

What changes she needs to make to never allow herself to get to that edge.

What allowed her to leap.

What caused the space between the two of you.

LG

Yes, it is over - the "affair" lasted all of two days. It has been NC for three months.

You say my marriage can be saved? How can that happen when my wife is unwilling to even try?

MWH:

You say she doesn't want to try.

Then, your right. It can't be saved.

Game over.

Turn out the lights.

I mean? She SAID it, RIGHT?

But.

Your here.

To try and save your marriage.

Your WW claims it's "Over"

So.

Have you learned about emotional needs?

Bought His Needs, Her Needs (HNHN)

How about Fall in Love, Stay in Love? (FIL/SIL)

(PS: Don't go to the bookstore! Go to the website, the shipping is fast and cheap)

Read. And learn.

Buy some new clothes. Dress nicer. I think your W has an issue with your appearance.

Her "Affair" lasted two days.

But it took her 10 years to walk up to it.

And you have only been about a month into sorting it out.

Read the Braeworth thread. It mgiht have resonance in you that you will not expect.

Big K and Bob Pure were all over Brae throughout.

And after 6 months, his marriage seems to be on track and gaining.

But you need to start this Marriage Building effort.

LG

MWH,

I've hit you with a 2x4 or two on your other threads ... you keep proclaiming that the PA is over, but so far, you haven't even acknowleged the possibility of a lingering EA, or another OM altogether.

Also, you keep looking to change the way your WW feels, without looking at yourself ... how's that been working out for ya?

Since you're not getting anywhere with what you've been doing ... dontcha think it might be worth trying something a little different?

According to you ... your WW's already checked out of the M, so really what have you got to lose by listening to some of these guys, who've "been there and done that"?

If you've got a better plan, we'll listen, but so far all we've seen are questions and denials, but no actions ... IT'S YOUR LIFE ... do you want to have some say in how it turns out???

MWH, it can be saved. I told my husband i wanted out, but i'm still here. i even confesed everything to him.

with out reading the books, he did plan a stuff, instinctively.

and HE kept believing in us. no matter what i said.

it was not easy or fair. but we are still married because of HIS belief, not mine.

something to think about...

I also agree. She's still having an affair and is hidding it from you.

Snoop and find the evidence. Its there.

For the record, after some talking last night, I believe my wife is now ready for marriage counseling.

Can your marriage be saved?? Perhaps... but a read through of your 35 posts leaves me feeling as if there is more to the story.... my advice is that you need to listen to what people have to say here. They have seen it all.... and I mean all... your situation is so unspecial its sad (to most of us) ...

Affairs don't happen on a whim and last 2 days.... they are long drawn out events.... wake up... smell the coffee.... your marriage is unsavable until you and her are honest with each other....and more importantly yourself!!!

100% CERTAINTY that your wife is not having an affair right now??? You don't get it... Never and EVER are not common words in my vocabulary.....

Please listen to what you are being told, read my thread. You say she is only not with you when she is at work, so could she not be involved with someone at work? Please don't be naive. My W is one of the nicest, most caring and genuine people you could ever wish to meet. During our false recovery she swore on my life, our DD's life and the memory of her recently deceased mother that she was in NC. She was also non-commital towards our marriage and kept saying she had reached the end of the road.
We are now 4+ months in to proper NC and the difference in her behaviour is staggering. She may not yet be totally back in love with me, if you read my thread you will probably see why, I struggled with this a fair bit but every day I see more effort from her and everyday I see her drawing closer to me. At 3 months NC she should at least be starting to reconnect with you.
Do you know who she had the A with, you really need to verify that this is really over.
We all hope you are right but the indications are that she is still involved

People, I know exactly when she met the other guy. It was not a drawn-out thing. It was literally one day from the day she found him online, to the day she met him. Yes, it happened that quickly. And it ended just as fast.

Was the downward spiral that lead to her seeking out someone else started prior to those two days? Of course! But up until that day, there was nothing. The consumation was done on a whim. But the process leading up to it was not.

And seeing as my wife started her brand new job last week, I'm fairly confident that she is not having an affair at work. Considering the fact that she works alone, with troubled youths, would make it pretty difficult.

The "other guy" lives 60 miles away, in the opposite direction.

No, she is not having an affair right now. But just because the affair is over, does not mean we don't still have problems. Clearly we do! And that is where we are right now. I don't understand why everyone is so quick to accuse her otherwise. It's not like an affair ends, and all problems are solved. We now have to deal with what lead her down that path. And she's been pretty open about that - with a little teeth-pulling. But the truth is there.

The affair is over. Now what? That's where we are. And that's what I need help with!

MWH,

Let's assume for the moment that there is no longer an affair and there is no contact of any kind with OM or any other OM.

Starting there, you need to reestablish a sufficient balance in her love bank in your name to cause her to pass the romantic threshold and feel "in love" with you. The way to do this is by following the MB methods of meeting her ENs, killing all love busters in your own behavior and beginning to use the other tools like negotiating using the policy of joint agreement as well as the policy of radical honesty. You also need to spend as much time together doing recreational activities as possible. Dr H recommends a minimum of 15 hours per week doing these things if the marriage is healthy. Obviously, if there are difficulties in the marriage, even more time is required.

Notice that I did not say spend time working on the problems or dealing with issues related to the affair. While those things need to happen, they cannot be your main focus. This time together should be spent actually meeting each other's ENs.

Dr H gives a great example of how this works in Fall In Love Stay In Love, which you might want to read. Many would recommend His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters, but FIL/SIL pretty much brings the two ideas together as well as giving exercises to arrive at the goal of implementing those ideas into your marriage.

Since the typical male has as his top ENs SF, (sexual fulfillment) recreational companionship (RC)and admiration while women typically have Affection, Conversation and Openness and Honesty, spending a lot of time together solves the problem from both sides at the same time. You do something fun, fulfilling your need for RC. You are paying a lot of attention to her and this leads to what some call nonsexual touching (NST for short) which is showing affection. You also have a conversation, meeting her need for that and she has a chance to show admiration for you for planning the day together and making her feel safe. You are in communications mode the whole day and are more likely to share honestly with each other. At the end of the day, you are connected to each other in a way that hasn't happened in a while and lo and behold, she is willing to provide SF.

But alas, you have a hard time doing this when the kids are along on every outing, other family members are trying to get you to do things with them and work is calling on the phone to ask questions about the report that isn't due till Tuesday.

What this does, though, is to make deposits into BOTH love banks even if it doesn't lead to SF at the end of the day and the "feeling" of being in love is rekindled, even if only briefly. It is the kind of thing you did for each other when you were dating. You didn't have to talk about it then and you don't have to talk about it now, just do it.

If after three weeks or so of this, if she isn't reconnecting with you and showing signs that her feelings are returning then one of two things is happening. Either you are committing love busters and depleting her LB$ before the balance can be built up (it only takes one aweshit to wipe out ten thousand attaboyz) OR she is involved with someone else, whether OM or a different OM. This can be as simple as on-line flirting and fantasy roll playing or as sinister as a full fledged long term affair that has been underground for years.

So I say give it a try and see how it works. If it doesn't work at all you have a long row to hoe.

Just remember that she didn't reach the point of wanting to get away from you in a week and she isn't going to be all gaga over you in a week either.

Once some stability has been established, I would work on how she met the guy on line at all. I would also keep a close eye on her online activities while doing the above experiment.

Mark

Thank you Mark. You've said a lot of good things there - things that I take to heart.

My wife and I had a good talk last night. I realize that I have not been the best husband I can be. I fell into a content lifestlye, and failed to realize that she required more in our marriage. Simply put, I got lazy. And my "laziness" played a huge part in her long, drawn-out process to seek out total fulfillment elsewhere. It wasn't about sex with her. It was much more than that. And while I've been sulking around feeling sorry for myself for the past three months, I should have focused more on what drove her away from me.

I basically asked her for a second chance - a chance to show her that I am "the one" for her. I asked her for the opportunity to show her that I can fulfill her needs, and be the good husband that she so rightly deserves. I believe she's torn about that. She doesn't want to hurt me. I believe she's afraid of how hurt I will be if we try again, and it just doesn't work out - which of course is a possibility.

She asked for a little time to digest what I told her. Now I have to hope.

MWH,

OK. Now is the time to start actually applying the MB concepts to your marriage. You don't have to discuss them at length, analyze them together or even make her understand what you are doing. Just do it!

Spend time together doing FUN stuff. You still need to deal with issues and you will no doubt have questions that you will need answers to along the way, but you can't fix it faster by constantly dealing with the problems. In fact, the most progress will be made when you are just doing it rather than working on it.

Do you follow that?

FWIW, for most women it isn't about sex. For most of us guys sex is the goal, the destination, but for women, generally speaking, the journey is more important than the destination.

This is why you need to be spending 15 hours minimum per week together. It allows you to fill each other's LB$ and connect with each other. You get to discuss your fears and desires for life without the pressure of "having a relationship talk." You get to meet each other's ENs in a natural and relaxed way and the result is what you both seek, rather than both of you ending up frustrated because she doesn't want to have sex and you don't want to have a long conversation about "life in general."

In fact, when you feel resistance to discussions of important things, pause and find something fun to do together so that LB$, both yours and hers, can be refilled and give you the strength to continue.

This is why Dr Harley's method works better than most. His primary goal is to restore the love you have for each other and it is that love that is the foundation and basis for your marriage in the first place. All other aspects of the relationship flow from that. Until the love is strong, no amount of communication or hard work can save your marriage.

It is good to recognize your part in allowing the marriage to deteriorate, but do not take responsibility for her choices in having an affair. Those belong solely to her. And keep in mind that the marriage was the same for both of you. She chose to go outside of it to get her ENs met, while you did not. That is what eventually has to be dealt with in order to prevent it from happening again.

And it has to be HER that sets the boundaries that will prevent that. You cannot be the gatekeeper to her heart forever. It requires that you do everything right forever, and that simply is not possible. Her choice to remain faithful in the future has to be protected from failure by what SHE does, not what you do or don't do.

But keeping her LB$ filled to overflowing and avoiding making withdrawals by doing away with love busters will make the likelihood of a repeat less likely because the marriage will be stronger and you will be more connected as a matter of routine and she will not have ENs going unmet for months at a time, making her vulnerable in the process.

Mark