On another thread there has been a recent discussion about the differences between "needing sex" and "sexual fulfillment" as defined as meeting the desire for sex and having it "fulfilled" in marriage as God has ordained it to be.

I am really saddened (though regrettably not surprised) when I hear of abuses (sexual "need" driven) by leaders who are "supposed to be" shepards protecting their flocks (as Christ protects His), "selectively choosing" what Christian values are "important" to them and which are not if they "get in the way" of allowing themselves to do whatever they want to do.

For those interested in the story to which prompted this post, here is the link so you can read it for yourself:


Sex scandal rocks church


A couple of statements in that article caught my eye in particular;

1. "For years the church was at the forefront of many social movements — admitting black members in the 1960s, ordaining women and opening its doors to gays."

Opening the doors to everyone regardless of race, etc., is what should be done.

Ordaining women is contrary to the Scripture upon which they alegedly are claiming to be a "Christian church," but increasingly typical of many churches.

Opening it's doors to homosexuals is contrary to God's clear stance concerning practicing homosexuals.

Given the latter two decisions of the church, the CHOICE and the apparent PLAN to USE the church for a "Wolf in sheeps clothing" approach to doing whatever they want, to say nothing of the prohibition against Adultery in the very same Scripture, would seem to be yet another "call" to Christians to BE DISCERNING in where they worship in order to make sure that the leadership IS God focused and NOT "world focused." Humble obedience to the Lord seems to have been severely lacking, to say nothing of resisting temptations that are "normal" to all people.

And that lack of understanding seems to be continuing:

2. ""My uncle is 100 percent guilty, but his accusers are guilty as well," D.E. Paulk said, declining to talk further about the lawsuits."

There are no "buts" in repentance. There is no "blame shifting" to justify adultery. That the women MAY have been "stupid" for overly trusting the pastor who was manipulating them to get what HE wanted is a problem they may "own," but HE was the "tempter and active abuser" not only of them, but against God.

Another sad chapter in "sexual sin" and it's far reaching consquences. I know WHO is chortling and laughing and it's another sad case of believing the lie, "God didn't really mean what He said, do it and you will 'be like a god."

Fidelity in marriage, the sanctity of marriage, the refusal to let a little "yeast" into the flock and NOT call sin "a sin," is IMPORTANT. Failure in those areas, as commanded by God, is destructive to self and to many others.

I guess that's why some things are called COMMANDMENTS and not "suggestions."

In the vernacular of the day, whatever happened to "just say 'No'?"

I'm sorry, I don't understand this thread at all. Are you suggesting that we all here think adultery is not a sin? Of course it is. Is there any sin that isn't forgivable? Only one and adultery isn't it.

The commandments are our tools for living good, wholesome lives but they were writtin as law. Because man is sinful in nature, God sent Jesus to attoin our sin and now we live by grace.

Adultery is serious stuff. Homosexuality is serious stuff, and a host of other perversions, but anyone can turn their lives around and if they repent, they are forgiven. Repent means to turn from sin and if a woman or man truly repents then they are forgiven.

God allows divorse due to adultery as I personally believes he knows the depths of the hurt and he knows that the BS can easily become broken and become vulnerable to all sorts of issues. Blaming God, turning away from the one person that can help them through this storm, etc. So I think, and this is my interpretation, that he allows divorse due to adultery because some people can't handle it. He said in his Word that He would never give anyone more than they can handle without an escape. I think divorse is our escape if we can't handle it.

As far as the pastor being the tempter and the abuser. That's between him and God. That's big but again not unforgivable.

I don't know if any of this falls in line with what your post was getting at, but these are my thoughts.

notyetgivenup - all good thoughts.

The thread isn't about forgiveness, I've written plenty on that subject over the years.

The thread is about humble obedience to the Lord and the impact that disobedience has on others. It is a "warning" to be discerning in following God rather than following man.

It is about sorrow over seeing God's name dragged through the mud yet again.

It is about others "making excuses" for bad behavior rather than "stepping up to the plate" in true repentance for one's choices when they were sinful.

In the end, it's about personal responsibility for our own actions and the "witness" that it has to others, regardless of what others may do or say.

It's a "reminder" to each of us.

God bless.

My STBX is very repentive, remorseful, etc. He would do anything to change what he did and yet I’m still divorcing him. I can’t get it back. My H and I were very involved in the church, he was an usher, I was on the faith team, we attended Sunday School, church, we really had a great church family. This was our downfall. A co-worker called him one day about a crises in her life, her husband was cheating on her and she wanted advise. He invited her to church. I sat the bimbo right between us in church. The calls didn’t stop and it progressed to a full EA and PA. This, by the way, started right after our first wedding anniversary. One Sunday morning, my H and I were sitting in church and we were having a baptism service, lo and behold, his bimbo was getting baptized, of course I didn’t know at the time anything was going on. Anyway, my H right there in church told me how proud he was to have brought someone to the Lord. All the while they were still seeing each other. Did they drag God through the mud. My thought is yes, not verbally, but mocked him, mocked the meaning of baptism. It was all very sick to me. I tried to reconcile, for 2 years, couldn’t do it. My heart was not with my H anymore, I guess too much damage. And, yes, my relationship with God was damaged. I no longer go to church, but I’m hoping to change that since I’m now on my own.

I can tell you, as a Christian, it was a very difficult decision. All of my Christian friends and Christian counselor, encouraged me to stay married and work things out. It has been a huge burden to stay when I really didn’t want to. I thought it was my duty as a Christian, an obligation and a testimony of forgiveness. It has been a tough journey for me because I feel like a complete failure. I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that being a Christian caused me to stay in my marriage, but God’s Word is what gave me the strength to leave.

If Christians are really so concerned about the sanctity of marriage, why ban gay marriages? BAN DIVORCE!!!

It seems to me that someone who REALLY believes in the sanctity of marriage...someone who DOESN'T just hate gays because they are bigoted and ignorant, would be more worried about a 50% divorce rate than a tiny minority of people wanting to get married.

Krazy, are you making a statement or are you directing an accusation and/or question to me?

Okay, a statement then. Then just a comment on the statement. Both are a distinct problem with respect to what God intended for marriage and are indicative of putting "me" first rather than humble obedience to the Lord.

Marriage is defined by God as between a Man and a Woman.

Divorce in a Christian marriage for anything other than "marital unfaithfulness" is not supported by God, and divorce for "marital unfaithfulness" is allowed by God, not preferred or a "must," because God hates all divorce.

In the big picture Krazy, I would agree with you. That doesn't make me in favor of gay marriage(I'm not), but the threats to family/society are not even remotely close.

Krazy,

What about those who define marriage as a man and a women becoming "one flesh" as God designed it to be from the beginning according to Genesis and according to Jesus when he was asked about divorce. Doesn't that kind of cover both topics at the same time?

And FH and others have repeatedly spoken out against divorce. Sort of why most of us are here, to stand against divorce, even in light of betrayal.

FWIW, I don't have to hate people to believe that what they are doing is wrong. Same concept as hating adultery while loving a wayward spouse.

Sorry for the interruption, FH.

Mark

I have a question about this FH...Maybe a couple...While I KNOW that homosexuality is a sin, is the church really supposed to turn practicing homosexuals away? I mean, aren't we supposed to allow them in church so that they may finally GET the error of their ways and repent? No one would really be able to KNOW that they were actually PRACTICING homosexuality really, right? Sorta like no one would KNOW that a heterosexual was practicing premarital sex, which is equally wrong I believe...Do you see what I'm asking?

Also, though I'm not certain if this belongs on this thread-FH, you are too smart for me sometimes-:) Something that has recently occurred to me about my own sin is this...For many years I had premarital sex-oh yes, I was VERY GUILTY of thinking that I could just repent SOMEDAY...And yet I didn't really...What I did do was get married and think, "Oh cool, now I'm not sinning anymore!" But there was never any true repentance...I just figured that since I wasn't doing it anymore that all was good...How blind I was...Same thing for abortion...I was viciously "Pro Choice", which was quite convenient for me, since I myself many years ago did in fact have an abortion...But what I have found since my affair was that I had to TRULY repent...To truly KNOW all that I had been doing was OH SO WRONG...To feel genuine sorrow in my heart for how openly and defiantly I had been disobeying God for MANY years...I found that when I became truly remorseful for my adultery that I had to become truly remorseful for all that I had done wrong for so long...I can't tell you how free that I feel now that I've REALLY repented...Saying what you've done wrong is NOT enough, you must feel it with every fiber of your being, and completely CHANGE your mind to match what God has said...I am awed by God's grace and mercy...It is quite incomprehensible to me...Really there are no words to describe it...

Something else that I've found very powerful since I've started a women's bible study at our church-(my first one ever! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) is that the transparency that we talk about here at MB is also very important amongst Christians...Our personal testimonies that include all that we've done wrong, along with all of our doubts and fears do GREAT GOOD when shared...It let's people know that they are not alone in their fears and failures...It is VERY powerful to show someone how far that God has delivered you...And Satan HATES that...He HATES that kind of fellowship...The kind that shows God in all His glory and unites Christians in His name...What a wonderful experience this has been for me (meaning the Bible study and the transparency of all of us ladies in it)...

Anyway, FH, as I said, I'm not real sure this belongs here, but for some reason I felt compelled to share it...Forgive me if it's not a good fit with your thread!

Mrs. W

Mrs. W - It fits fine, no need for any apology.





Yes, I see what you are asking.

The first "dividing line," if you will is "membership" in the church. The doors of a church should be open to all who are sincerely seeking God even though they may not have to come to acceptance of Christ yet.

In some cases you are correct, people might not know someone was a practicing homosexual. In other cases, they may know from being familiar with the person outside of church.

Either way, ALL are welcome in church but there will come a time when a decision concerning continued, regular, attendance (and/or membership) will need to be faced. The church cannot "tolerate" open homosexuality, adultery, etc., or any willful activity (lifestyle) that is basically an "in your face" insult to God and to a life that is surrendered to our Sovereign Lord in humble obedience to HIS will. To do so "condones" behavior that God has said is not to be. That's what the warning about a "little leaven" is all about. It's what some of the warnings to the churches in Revelation touch on.

The "approach" to something like this really shouldn't be that different from a "church discipline" issue for members of a church. Sin can't be "tolerated," imho, but the sinner should be approached in love with the objective of confession, repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation.

Ah Gotcha! I agree, thanks for the explanation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Marriage isn't an exclusively Christian institution. People of all races, religions and sects of life marry, take their vows seriously and look to places like this board for advise when it falls apart. Why can't a gay BS post here for advise or does MB exclude all non-christians?

Tabby1 - Who said anything about excluding anyone from posting on MB? MB is open to anyone. The "objective" of MB is Marriage Building. If a gay person wants to post on MB for advice, they can and other members can respond or not respond as they choose.

Or did I misunderstand your post? Were you really trying to post an objection to Christians posting on MB? Very hard to understand what the intent of your message was.

What can I say FH..I 100% agree with you.

I have read the replies [most of them anyway] and with only a few exceptions had a hard time connecting the reply to the original post.

Your post if I understand you correctly has to do with non or anti-scriptural practices being welcomed into the church as progressive movements in defiance of scriptural directives.

And that is so obviously wicked from where I'm standing that I guess you are preaching to the choir because I don't even have anything to add.

What I mean to say is that there seems to be a lot of Christian values posted as the reason to stay married, fight for a marriage, or do whatever it is post-marriage. There is also a lot of criticism to those who may not do those things, though it could simply be that it is not part of their personal belief system. This thread sounds angry about those types of actions - meaning actions that do not fall under strict Christian scripture. This may be totally appropriate subject to raise in your church. Why did you raise it here?

Tabby...

Why would it be less okay for a Christian to express their views than it would be for a non Christian? Because I gotta tell ya your posts sound an awful lot like you'd like for Christians to just SHUT UP, but EVERYBODY else is allowed to speak what's on their mind...I don't see that as very "fair" do you? You saw the title of the thread, if you didn't want to read about Christianity, you had the choice not to click on it, eh?

Mrs. W

Actually I don't think Homosexuals should be turned away from a church.

But if the church is faithfully preaching the word of God then the "heat in the kitchen" the conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit, will cause that individual to either leave OR repent and be saved.

The church should be open to ALL but the church should also speak out against evils like the practice of homosexuality.

What's so evil about it? Because God said so?

God also said that you should punish a misbehaving child by stoning them.


Get a rock!