Greetings all.
I am stuck in a no win situation.
My wife and I agree we have a bad marriage.
We have tried counselling twice. The last time there, my wife was told to decide if she wanted to be married.
She will not talk about our marriage.
I have been working hard onmaking things better, more attentive, domestic chores, etc.
She gets depressed and has a low self asteem.
She does not have any friends that I can talk to other than her co workers. She does not have any hobbies.
I have tried to get her to go out or volunteer and am told that she is not intereseted.
Her life is about work and her daughters.
Any suggestions??

Did you guys go through all the ENs you are meeting for each other?

Did you do homework exercises during MC?

Are you getting the 15 hours of UA each week, without R talk?

LA

We went thru the EN questionare a year and a half ago.
I work on meeting hers. She does not care about mine.
There was no homework @ MC. She went but would not talk.
15 hours together talking....
She will not talk about the relationship.
Only kids & work.

I am into about the 3rd year of trying to make this work.
I give, she takes.
I do more domestic chores to free up time and she uses it to do something without me.
I have asked to go for walks, the answer is no. I dont feel like it.
Her self asteem is like a roller coaster.
I am getting to the point where I can say I have done all I can.

It's hard to help without more info. She sounds depressed.

I agree with the depression comment.
If I try and talk about that, she blows up.
She was hospitalized a number of years ago for depression.
She came out and swore she would never go back.
Its like she has 2 personalities.
At work, she is a compassionate caring happy person.
When she steps in the house, things change.
I have always been an honest open person with her.
In one sense, I think she is trying to drive me away to free me. I persist on loving and caring for her.

I'm no expert, but it sounds like nothing will move forward until that depression is addressed. Does she have a support system? Mother, siblings? Someone she respects? She may need someone besides yourself urging her to address it.

If nothing else, ask her to consider what it is doing to her daughters, guilt her into making a change. I'm in deep depression, and I see the things I do in reaction to my daughter, and I cringe inside, knowing I shouldn't but unable to stop myself. They are most definitely being affected by it, and probably not in a good way. Are they your daughters, or from another relationship?

Well, her mother committed suicide 20 years ago.
She felt she was to blame.
My oldest daughter is off to college and she communicates daily with her.
I think she is co dependant on her.
She lives for her children. I will always come 2nd.
Her mother did the same until they all moved away.
She has withdrawn from the church.
No close friends to talk too.

Guilt is something she has lived with all her life.
Her father always used guilt to control his family.
I was not raised that way and try and give her my opinion and leave it to her.

Our daughters are 16 and 20.
Both great kids. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not saying she is down all the time but there are times it gets scary.
This past weekend, I almost called the hospital.
It was her fathers 80th and we had planned a get together with all the family members at a restaurant. I got her up and we made it to the party.
No one else see’s the personality change other than my youngest daughter.

CG,

You say she doesn't care to meet your ENs. Is this a realistic statement, or one you feel when you think you're second place, not cared about?

If she were to stop working, would you experience anxiety from her lack of financial contribution? I didn't list FS as a top EN of mine until my WH was thinking about doing this...then it became REALLY important.

Same for FC...if she were to not care about your daughters, suddenly...would FC be something important to you? I'm asking you to find all the ways she does meet ENs which may be under your radar to lessen your own resentment right now.

Have you been reading and studying about boundaries in marriage? Your healthy actions to enforce, respect and not base your choices on her possible reactions?

Seems to me you're trying to fix your wife instead of partnering her...counseling with the Harleys may be just what your marriage needs right now.

You aren't in a no-win situation...you feeling as if you are is valid...that's your perception. Remains true that you have your own power and limits, same as before.

I remember how frustrated my DH was during my depression...he says he felt helpless, powerless, stuck and useless. This could be the time when your wife is dealing with a lot of self-directed anger from living in guilt all her life. She may blow up when she hears you talk about the M because she's hearing blame, that she's the problem. Won't know until she tells you. She could blow up from her constant fear of failing you, being worthless and a wrecking ball.

Why not take predetermined boundary enforcements so you can connect with your wife in a healthy, non-reactive way? You may find out you are her number one fear...or just her number one?

Did you read Love Busters, identify and eliminate them? For each act you take to meet an EN of hers, you could be removing 20 of them. Might be why you feel stuck.

LA

Thanks for your comments LA

My wife has told me about 5 years ago that I will always be 2nd place to my children.
That hurts.

I hear what you are saying about the EN’s.
I do appreciate my wife. I tell her and show her.
When your top EN’s are not being met, it gets tough.

I have read Love Busters, His Needs Her needs, Boundaries & How to improve your marriage without talking about it.
My wife does not read much and said she would not read them.
The last book I got was an audio book a month ago. Tuesdays with Morie.
The 2 of us were together for a long drive a couple of weeks ago and I put the book in to listen to it.
She did everything she could to avoid listening to it short of telling me to take the CD out.

“predetermined boundary enforcements” ?
Not sure what you mean here.

I tell her I love her every morning before I go to work.
I don’t know if it is the depression or the fact that she may not love me anymore.

One of the big things bothering me is the example we are setting as a married couple.
She thinks our relationship is not as important as the kids.
I disagree on that point.

Time will tell

CG

I had that belief, CG, that children come first.

Sure can destroy a marriage.

From reading and learning about marriage from a lot of sources, I changed that belief. My highest priority is The Marriage...because it has two halves...means he's first and I'm first within the marriage.

Which is the biggest gift I can give my children...exampling how marriage works, how to act to your top priority and how to thrive.

I think we share that belief. My DH couldn't change my belief...only I could.

When we put our children first, then we cause great distress down the line for them in their own marriages...because their top priority is themselves. The cycle continues...as they put their children first.

I believe this belief is an important part of why there are so many divorces in our country.

Did you tell her of your pain when she said that? Of your fear?

My DH doesn't read, so I understand your urge to have your wife read and know what you now know.

About putting in the CD on the long drive...have you been offering POJA? Stating what you're enthusiastic about and asking what she would be enthusiastic about?

Predetermined boundary enforcements are what you determine ahead of time you will do when you cross your boundaries...say, of respect. If you yell, you predetermine what you will do, how you will own, amend and stop yourself. You do this outloud to the person you yelled at. First boundary enforcement I have around myself is to state the boundary violation...DJs, AO's, SD's, lying, or IB. I include not listening, not POJA'ing, too.

If I do it again, I remove myself for a set time and return. Up to me to get my emotions settled, my ears cleared out and my state of mind ready to be present for my partner.

When I do this around me, I can do this in my marriage.

My point about top ENs was to have the balance of examining all your ENs and see where if she stopped meeting a bottom one for you, it might shoot to the top, because it now was unmet. It is really tough to try to get your partner to do anything, anytime.

When I focused on my lack, I lived and experienced lack.

When I changed my focus to abundance, then I lived and experienced abundance. Just as there are downward spirals within us and our human relationships, so are there upward spirals.

I didn't know that before.

Didn't know I was that powerful.

Or limited.

Both work for my own balance, which gives me greater clarity, so I can see my filter, my half of communication, understanding; and acknowledges I am half of my marriage.

Would you consider reading "Getting the love you want" by Harville Hendrix next?

Is her love language words of affirmation? Is that why you tell her you love her every morning?

About her possible depression...I was in her shoes and my DH could do nothing. I don't see to this day what he could have done...maybe made an appt for evaluation and taken me? I dunno. Seems a healthier choice if you were nearly to the point of calling a hospital.

Depression really is anger turned inward...comes from living in fantasy in our heads, deeply within what we wish for (even changing the past) instead of what we have.

Love is a choice we make and act from our own choice. Loving feelings come when we act from love...reasonable enough to consider she may not have loving feelings for you because she isn't acting on her own choice to love...for whatever reason. I'd go with fantasy...mine was based that my DH would cure me of my FOO stuff (family of origin)...and darn if he wasn't doing that! LOL. Sorry. Seems crazy to me now. Was very real over ten years ago.

Up to you to make your marriage your top priority and act from it. To lay out the four rules of marriage and hold yourself to them...your wife may be facing the empty nest on top of old depression...with one daughter gone and the next close to leaving. When we put our children first, and they grow up and leave, then we lose who we are, having defined ourselves through them. Upsetting time...isn't forever...and I believe the drive to put our children first also comes from wanting to have been first place with our parents...as if that will cure all we caused while growing up, get it right, make it perfect; be the fix.

Tough roads are well worth the effort to walk them. You seem like a man who wants to thrive in his life, his marriage, as a parent, a friend and person. Am I close?

LA

Thank you LA for your insight.
You certainly have a lot of words of wisdom.

Now to some of your points.
I have told her how much it hurts when she tells me I am second.
A lot of tears have come out of those conversations.

Enthusiastic… I used to be enthusiastic about my hobbies but that has dropped off.
I look forward to Mountain biking now but the season is over.

Predetermined boundary enforcements……
Through time I realized that our time alone conversations would end up with both of us upset and saying things that were hurtful. I moved away from getting emotional in those conversations and remained calm and respectful. Our conversations got a lot shorter and nothing really got accomplished. I was very flexible to her wants/needs and was offered nothing in return.
I find I have a more open mind to new ideas where she tends to be more closed minded.
I say that because I am always the one making changes.

I always looking for new info to give me hope so thanks for the book title.

“I love you in the morning” is what I say to my daughter and wife.
I leave for work when they are to be getting up. Takes the edge off the alarm I hope.
I am thankful for my wife and daughter and want them to start there day feeling that.

LA, did you come across any books that look at the Child 1st Marriage 2nd syndrome?
Maybe if I can show her something in print, she may view things differently.
I have even gotten to the point of rereading the books and recording them on my MP3 player to play back later. I would hope that she might offer to listen to them.

Anyway,
I guess I am a little late, but Happy Thankksgiving to all.
Compassion and caring about one another will make this a better world.
Its not rocket science.
CG

CG,

I had a chuckle when I read "You certainly have a lot of words"...I stopped myself there. Seemed true to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I asked if you had told her how you felt when she said your marriage comes second, not to change her, to see if you were holding to your boundary of honesty. You want her to be open and honest (O&H)...what you crave most you are least giving.

It was a check. See, about you, not her. Often in enmeshment, we stop doing what keeps us true to ourselves because we don't get the response we desire. That's self-betrayal. Drains our own love bank and seems as if they are due to their non-response or wrong response. We're doing it. Our power.

Would you consider phrasing your response when she states in the future that the children come first, not as you being second, but the marriage? My DH and I were involved in this power struggle, which is what priorities seem to symbolize, and whatever he did or didn't do felt against me. Our MC said there are three parts...your half, his half, and The Marriage.

We can do and not do for The Marriage, even when we feel like doing back or not doing against the other.

Blew me away. I found a lot of my actions of tit for tat were against my DH...and had not realized they were also against The Marriage...which hadn't let me down in any way...to the contrary, I had attacked it many times over in trying to get at my DH.

Which means you are not second, The Marriage is...and feels in your half as hurtful as you do. Let me know if that perspective aligns more to what you believe than to what you've been experiencing.

In Harley's four policies of marriage, there is the Policy of Joint Agreement...which is about anything you do together...even to what you'll listen to in the car, which way you'll drive, or when. Helps us to identify in ourselves what we are enthusiastic about...helps to kill off our sacrificial habits which build resentment in marriage, and in my experience, sets firmly our own responsibility in our half of the marriage.

I hear you saying that you stopped engaging in conversations because you feared one or both of you would feel upset and say hurtful words, is that correct? We aren't stoves...we can touch each other and each time, the outcome may be different. Choosing to see your partner as your enemy, a hot stove, is your choice...not reasonable; it ensures distance, lack of understanding and is an act of disrespect. You can ensure you do not say hurtful words...you cannot ensure she won't feel hurt, fear, anger. Those are hers. Yours are your own.

When you ensure you won't have emotional intimacy in your marriage, then great pain comes from that choice. I know this first hand...I remember it really well. It's not an easy perspective to break--my pain coming in through DH.

Reality remains--I feel pain. It's not coming from DH...it's in me, for me, about me. It's mine.

I used to make pain my god. What I slaved, manipulated, attempted to control in every thought, word and deed. My payoff was a false as pain is a false god. Not real, not reasonable...yet the false payoff of knowing I was the victim overrode all the indicators that I was in fantasy.

Nothing got accomplished in those conversations. What a judgment. What if in those conversations you got to know who your wife was right now, and share who you are right now? Can you measure that? Or were you having those conversations to get her to stop or start something to make you feel, think, believe differently?

What if she doesn't have that power? What if only you have that power?

Do you consider yourself adept at conversing or sharing?

I hear a lot of all or nothing in your posts. I asked if this was a healthy perspective for you...and I shared where I saw ENs being met...and you said, they weren't your top ones. Then I read in your last post that nothing in return phrase. How much love are you cutting out of your experience, CG?

How many love deposits do you block from your choice to not perceive them?

Could that be why you see her as close-minded? Your love bank is closed?

Same for your "I love you" in the morning...you are saying it to give them a feeling, take the edge off the alarm...is this their love language? Is this you meeting a top EN for them? Is it what they asked for, how they experience your love, or you do?

From what you shared, would you consider saying, "Thank you for choosing to be my wife" and "Thank you for being my daughter" would be your real truth? Not for them to feel...for you to be true, meet their EN through your truth?

I think Harley was the first to give me that marriage 1st perspective. I don't remember if it was in HNHN or SAA.

I know that you cannot educate your wife out of her beliefs. That would be disrespectful and a fantasy. Like getting her to feel, think, perceive differently. Not in your power...and I hear you craving that power very much.

I know I did...comes right into the way I used to live...my choices to focus on others changing their stuff.

And believing I was doing all the changing...that all or nothing again.

I had to get really brave, hold my fear, and share what was moving ME...share aloud each new choice, new thought...own where I was trying to earn love back instead of be love.

I had to wipe my DH's slate clean in my own mind...get rid of the grime, hear, see and experience him for the whole and separate person he really was...because I was knee-deep in assumptions and judgments of him...his self-image in MY mind...which was MY doing. Not his.

That changed everything...staying present to hear his stuff and not take it about him...not even let it into my head until I knew it was about him, from him, shared. I stopped reading his eyes, his body language, the root of my assumptions and DJs. I had to commit to asking to know and letting go the response...accept his words as his truth, not the truth...and NOT go making up the truth in my own mind.

I read the Bradshaw books and focused on me...sharing what I was learning aloud...what resonated...lots of amends to make for thoughts my DH didn't even know I had. I became enthusiastic about me...my own acts of love, feeling my loving feelings inside me from those acts, fill me up and overflow, spilling all over my life experience.

All to break my enmeshment with DH...and get to Phase III stage of marriage. Did it on faith that there was a third stage...though I hadn't seen or experienced it. Faith in me, in others...a choice.

I remember in my depression that I believed I couldn't communicate my stuff to my DH for fear of his hurt and pain...wishing he wouldn't make it all about him when it wasn't...wishing he would DO something to cure me, and at the same time, feeling like a human wrecking ball.

I cut out so much love, stopped a lot of love deposits, because they weren't coming from where I wanted them most...my parents. I remember saying to DH, "If my own parents can't love me, how can you?" Very much in my child state of mind, not my adult, spending all my thought time on trying to prove I was lovable...instead of knowing I was.

LA

LA

“Honesty…what you crave most you are least giving” Ouch
I certainly don’t think so. I have always been honest with her.
She tells me I am to blunt. She does not like to hear my opinion.

I like the idea of saying that the marriage is 2nd and will focus on that.

Years ago, I was slightly vindictive and sarcastic.
I came to the point where I said that is not how I want to live.
My choice, and that is how I live now.
It’s tough when I work in an environment full of it.

By nature, my wife and I are guarded.
Our work demands that and it spills over into our marriage.
Same goes for your comment on all or nothing.
I am trying to go into the gray area more in our marriage.

My wife does not do many things specifically for me.
I have always been self-sufficient.
When I ask her to do anything, she gets upset. I don’t ask very often.

I appreciate your comment saying “Thank you for choosing to be my wife”
I can see that building love and her self esteem.

I find that when I wake up in the morning, my mind is the most active.
Morning person by our definition. She is a night person.
I have all kinds of relationship questions I would like answers to.
I end up holding most of these in and letting go of them through out the day.
The daily stress takes my mind off them.

When we talk…… I have focused on me and not the marriage. Needs again.
I am much better now to not react so quickly and look more at the big picture.
That is one thing I have picked up from this site.
I can only change me and hope my positive changes have an effect on my marriage.
Geee it takes a long time.

My parents both worked in a small family business.
Financially, I am embarrassed to say all the things they did for me. They would do anything for me.
Emotionally, they fell way short.

I am working on changing that with my wife & kids. I have been distant.

I guess I am at a point in my life where I want to feel loved and not just seen as the moneyman.

CG

You remind me of that saying about how, on your deathbed, you will not remember any of the Academy Award winners, or Heisman Trophy winners, politicians, great scientists, even spiritual leaders. You will remember the teacher who gave you a love for learning in grade school, the father who taught you how to fly a kite, the spouse who cooked you soup when you were sick, the brother who called you and joked with you til you laughed after you lost your job...those are the people with true meaning in someone's life. Sounds like you're on the right track.