Hello everyone! I have recently discovered this site/forum and I really could use some help/advice. I'm sorry for the long post, but my sitch is quite complicated so please bear w/ me…

Basic background:
BH (me) 29
WW 29
Married June 02
DD 5
Dday 10/31/07

Like many married couples, we have our ups and downs. Our problems had gotten worse since we moved from the city into the suburbs about 2.5 yrs ago. The main reason for moving was because at my parents’ request (both out of country), I took the responsibility of becoming my brother’s legal guardian (he’s now 18) so he can go to a good high school. We now have a teenage boy in the house who ended up taking the room that would have been DD’s. Any privacy that we would have had in the home was gone as a result. My WW goes to school in the city (most of her friends live in the city as well) and her commute is very long (1.5 – 2 hrs door to door) by public transportation (she can’t drive due to a medical condition). She was against moving to the suburbs from the beginning and she constantly complains about the commute, but there is only so much I can do regarding her commute due to my work schedule. We have continued to drift apart for the next couple of yrs.

In 1/07, WW said she wanted to move back to the city after she graduates. I said that’s fine, but I assumed it was for all of us moving together. Apparently, WW was thinking of moving w/o me (we will share time w/ DD). It also appears that was, in her mind, when she first wanted to give up on the M, which basically came down to if things didn’t get significantly better between us before she graduates, the M would be over. She did not communicate that to me at the time (maybe in her mind she did but I did not understand what she meant), and I didn’t know how bad her perception of our M is and what I needed to do to repair the damage until recently.

Over the last year, she has been taking dance lessons which I thought was a good thing for her because it helped w/ her stress and for her to meet more people. That was actually the beginning of the end… She was introduced to the OW (yes, OW) a few months ago through a mutual friend that she met at the dance lessons. WW never acted on her bi-sexual feelings before, but she knew she was attracted to women as well as men (she never told me about this until Dday). I don’t know the exact timeline, but the EA probably started not too long after they met, and as far as I can tell, the PA did not start until a couple of months ago. I know I haven’t been meeting many of her ENs for a long time and I have also done some serious LBing as well. Now there is someone that can meet her ENs, and she is in the withdrawal/FOG/cake-eating stage (her word is “detached” from me). She does not feel guilt about the A nor does she consider it to be an A since she is already “detached” from me. She also said that the reason she wants to leave me is not because of the OW, but because she has no feelings for me anymore. We began seeing a couples therapist 2 wks ago, but WW’s view is that she is doing it to help me deal w/ the sitch, work out my issues, and make sure we can have an amicable relationship after we split, rather than trying to save the M. Her plan is to move out (w/ some sort of co-parenting agreement in place) after she graduates (in exactly 1 month) and has the ability to support herself and DD (depending on when she lands a decent job). If I force her out now, she will just move in w/ the OW (single before she met WW, now consider to be each other’s GFs), although WW may move in w/ OW anyway even if WW leaves on her own.

When I 1st found out about the A, I stupidly did what I was not supposed to by appeasing her, and when I try to withdraw, WW would manipulate me back into the appeasement so she can eat cake. This has been going back and forth for a couple of wks and it’s tearing me up. I want to save this M despite her being bi-curious (she is “exploring” that side of her sexuality now). I don’t want to do anything to push her away further because she may never come back (other than for issues relating to DD). I also don’t know what to do about DD. DD and OW have met many times before, and DD knows OW is “Mommy’s friend”, and of course DD would not suspect anything anyway since she is 5 and OW is a woman (DD understands Daddy is supposed to be a Boy and Mommy is supposed to be a Girl). DD has occasionally slept over at OW’s house when WW is there (usually when OW’s nieces/nephews are around so they can play together). For the last 2-3 months, WW has been sleeping over at OW’s house 1-2 nights per week, but this week WW will be sleeping over for the next 4 nights (she wants DD for 2 nights, which I agreed to because I didn’t know what to do), keeping in mind this is the week of Thanksgiving (DD will be eating Thanksgiving dinner w/ WW and OW’s friends).

Also, I know that part of Plan A involves exposing the A to people that can influence the WW. She is not working yet, her closest friends are all on her side, and her family knows she wants to leave me, but they do not know about the A, especially w/ it being w/ an OW. WW is not ready to come out to her family yet, especially to MIL (due to MIL’s religious beliefs and I'd imagined also b/c FIL left MIL). I don’t want to expose the A to her family or use that against her because it may cause irreparable harm not only to the M, her relationship w/ her family, but also to any chance of an amicable relationship if/when we split which will be very damaging to DD. If I can’t expose the A, can Plan A still be done? If I can't do Plan A properly, what else can I do? I don’t want to give up on the M but I am at a lost…

OM, OW, O-whatever. The rule remains the same: Expose, expose, expose to all you think can adversely affect the A.

Your wife's affair is what is causing "irreparable harm" to your marriage. You can't shield her from the consequences of her affair. You don't want an "amicable relationship after the divorce"...what you want is a MARRIAGE.

Expose to her mother and father. If she didn't want to "come out" yet, then she should not have started an affair with another person. Period.

Let you wife know that you will be seeking primary custody of your young daughter (I'm assuming you plan to protect your daughter from her mother's affair relationship, right?). Let her know you will not just bend over and give her whatever she wants. You have a right to continue to raise your daughter, you have done nothing wrong.

You can do Plan A till you're blue in the face, but without exposure your efforts are most likely futile.

Expose. Today.

MIN,

You may think your situation is unusual, and that we would "miss" the fact that the OP is the same sex. We wouldn't have....we've seen this sitch many times over the years. An A is A is an A....the gender isn't important and the plans remain the same.

As difficult as exposure will be under the circumstances, the fact that it IS so difficult, and will create such a stir, is more...not less...likely to make it effective. The more fear a wayward spouse has of exposure, the greater the odds that it will end the affair. If what you want is an amicable divorce....then exposure probably won't help. But if you want to save your marriage....the affair must end. To end an affair....there must be pressure....and exposure is the kind of pressure that bursts the fantasy of affairs better than anything else. If you wife really thought what she was doing was okay.....she wouldn't be hiding it from anyone.

Don't leave your home. Don't give up custody of your child, and for Pete's sake....stop allowing your wife to take your child for overnights with the OW! That's a travesty. Thanksgiving is a time for families. You've got to start enforcing some boundaries.

Keep posting.....sorry you're in such a hard spot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

star*fish,

Thanks for your input, but I am the one in this sitch, not MIN...

Believe it or not, WW told me that OW said she is willing to end the A w/ WW if WW wants to work things out with me (I'm assuming OW thinks they can remain as friends afterwards)... WW said that she doesn't want to be with me whether OW is in the picture or not... and that her choice to leave me was made before she even met the OW. I know that while the A is still going on, there is no chance for us to be back together, but if her initial choice to leave me was not related to the A...

I do want an amicable D if D will be the ultimate result no matter what I do, as I have a lot more to lose than WW if we go to court and it gets ugly. I very much do want to save the M (speaking as a H), but DD's well-being is more important to me (speaking as a father). Being a child of D parents will be bad enough, but it's much worse if we can't raise her as co-parents... That's why I am so hesitant about exposing to WW's family...

I am not leaving the home and I am not giving up custody. If it is an amicable split, we will have joint custody w/ DD's time divided equally b/w WW and I (including time w/ all 3 of us can spend together). If we fight in court, I would have to risk the chance of being the visiting parent in addition to losing a lot more of my assets than if we settle out of court.

WW considers keeping DD away from WW when she is with OW as a hostile act (just like exposure would be), and it would push her to leave the home sooner rather than later and fight rather than settle. I know it sounds like a threat, but I believe she will carry it out if push came to shove... I know it sounds like she is manipulating me, but she said that if I push her she will move in now w/ OW, but if I don't make things uncomfortable for her at home, she will not move out now and perhaps move out on her own as opposed to living w/ OW. She cannot support herself and DD if she moves out right now, but she would have to depend on me, her family, the OW if she moves out before she gets a job. Should I try to wait it out as long as possible while doing Plan A, so that the A may die a natural death? Is there a better scenario for me (WW move in w/ WW vs. move out on her own)?

(((iamlost))) Sad situation BUT A is A...if you want to save your M expose. It won't be pretty, she'll be furious things will seem horrible. She CAN get over those feelings, CAN you get over an ongoing A?

To me it sounds like you are trying to look at every possible scenerio and make one solution work for all. I don't know think that is possible.

If you want your M, do it the MB way, listen to the vets here. Set your boundaries, do not let your DD go to OW's house, etc. If you WW leaves don't allow her to take your DD. Your WW is the one breaking up the family, NOT you, NOT your DD. Stick to your boundaries, do what is RIGHT for the M, not your WW. If WW wants to see DD make it on YOUR conditions, no OW.

If you are conceeding a D is just a matter of time get your ducks in a row to gain custody, home, etc for that outcome.

Why do you have more to lose in a D than your WW? What else is or has happened?

mvg:

I have more to lose b/c instead of assuring joint custody, I will be risking not getting primary custody should the courts rule in her favor (for whatever reason, Mother - Daughter is better than Father - Daughter, etc.). I don't want my DD growing up in an environment where one parent is mostly absent in her life (one day a week is not enough).

Financially, I have more to lose as well since WW did not contribute financially to our marriage, so WW doesn't have anything to lose financially if we go to court (other than her attorney's fees). Court may see that she is entitled to my assets, which means I can lose up to 1/2 of my assets as opposed to us agreeing on a certain amount (which will definitely be a lot less than 1/2) if we settle.

I am not conceding to a D... I want to have hope... but it is so hard under these circumstances, especially with WW saying that she wants to leave me whether OW is there or not... it is her perception, therefore her reality, and if it is not going to change even if the A ends, then what else can I do to save the M? I'm just saying that if I can't stop D from happening, I much rather it be amicable than for it to turn into an ugly battle w/ bad blood between us (especially for DD's sake).

Also, I don't have the (legal) right to keep DD away from WW, just as she can't keep DD from me. We are still legally married afterall. I can't stop her if she takes DD to OW while DD is with WW, can I? Even if I stop WW this time, there are plenty of opportunities where WW can take DD w/o my knowledge since she doesn't work and I do. If I can't stop WW to take DD (whether it is to see OW or not), I rather WW tell me than for her to do it behind my back. As far as I know, infidelity is not a crime where I live... and I can't argue DD is in any kind of danger when she is in OW's presence either (OW treats DD very well from what I gather, not only from what WW tells me but from DD's own mouth).

Of course your WW says she was thinking of leaving you anyway and "it has nothing to do with the OW"...that's the wayward script. That's what we all said.

It's called: rewriting marital history. Every wayward does it. It's classic.

We are here to help you try to recover your marriage. I guess if you want advice on how to divorce amicably, I'm out because I don't know how to help you with that...

The danger your daughter is in may not be physical danger, but it is danger nonetheless. It is morally dangerous for her to believe that it is okay for her mother to behave the way she is. Would you allow your wife to take your daughter if she were carrying on with another man (rather than a woman)?

iamlost (sorry about the calling you MIN....sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain),

She is threatening you, and she is manipulating you. The person who's <hostile> here is your wife. You're letting a very confused and unethical waywardspouse control everything about your marriage. And if she gets her way....you'll be divorced and be a weekend parent, no matter what she's promising. You're assuming that if you play nice....you'll see more of your child....why do you believe that? If she was really interested in the well being of your child....would she break up your family? Is breaking up your family, and moving her into a home with her affair partner in the best interest? No....it's a selfish choice and she's already proving that she wants what she wants despite the destructiveness to your family.

Start researching the many organizations and guides to help fathers with custody issues. Here's a start:

http://www.fatherscustody.org/
http://www.menstuff.org/resources/resourcefiles/fathers.html

You need to document the affair she's having, and start keeping a journal of her threats and abuse. Your wife is trying so hard to manipulate you because she KNOWS that what's she's doing will put her at risk of becoming the weekend parent....not you. If you don't think that the fact that your wife is having an affair with another woman gives you some leverage, she's got you hoodwinked.....and you're not reading enough about literature.

Please use some of the father's resources to find a good attorney in your area to help you lay the groundwork for protecting your assets and your rights as a father. Stop letting her scare you.

Make a call out to Mr. Wonderin....he's got some legal knowledge as well excellent experience battling the wayward mentality.

hugs

I just want to add that even if MB efforts fail to save your M, they won't make a bit of difference to the outcome of a divorce. Whether you expose or not, whether you set boundaries or not, you are in for a rocky road ahead. Stop trying to hedge your bets. Get going with a full plan A. Also, you CAN tell your WW you don't want DD around OW. If the M ends in divorce, custody will be determined mostly by what is in the child's best interst. This includes keeping to the life the child is most accustomed to. If this life is spending weekends with the OP, that will continue.

cathy:

You are right. I will not allow WW to take DD to another man... I guess I felt that I can't compete with a woman... sexually of course since I don't have the same body parts, and I have a lot of catching up to do as far as me being able to understand and meeting her other ENs if my WW thinks they can be better met by a woman...

How can I prove this "moral danger" in the legal sense? And what can I do to enforce keeping DD away from OW if there is no physical danger? And is the consensus here that it's better to try to save a M whether if it may/can not be saved, even if it hurts the children more in the process, vs. making the best effort to minimize the effects on the children if D is the final outcome?

(sigh) If I had a dollar for every time I heard that story about a WW here...

Listen - a WS needs to *justify* to themselves *why* they made the choice to get involved in an A. The easiest way for them to do this is to insist to themselves that the M was ("spiritually", "emotionally", insert-latest-buzzword-here) over before they decided to get involved in an A, when a look at the history of the A will usually show otherwise.

And yes, your WW IS MANIPULATING YOU into getting what she wants. Stop listening to her babble!

How will fighting for your marriage hurt your child in the process?

You lay the ground rules...tell your WW that if she chooses to spend time with the OW then she does it ALONE...without your daughter. If she chooses to move in with the OW then she does it ALONE, without your daughter. See, your WW can make all the bad choices she wants, but she's not going to drag your daughter into it. PERIOD.

You have to step up and be the only sane person in the family right now. She is not thinking clearly. Again, you let her know that you have no intention of trying to "control" her, but that you will protect your daughter. She can choose at that point between her family and the OW...she can't have both.

Right now, she's got this little picture in her head of what her life is going to be like with the OW. She will spend all her time with the OW and will still have all the financial support from her husband, as well as still maintaining custody of her daughter.

Your job is to make sure she understands that her fantasy world is just that...fantasy.

The quickest way to shatter the fantasy is to EXPOSE. This is true whether she's with an OM or an OW. It's the affair that's the problem, not the sex of the other person.

Moral danger: your wife is taking your daughter out of her home, away from her father, to spend time with her adultery partner. Male or female, it doesn't matter...the end result is the same...she is shacking up with her affair partner and dragging her daughter into it.

Another thing to think about: your wife's plan is to secure a job...presumably in the city that is 2 hours away...how do you think you are going to be able to "co-parent" with your daughter living 2 hours away? You really need to contact a lawyer and start working on a legal separation that protects you and your daughter if your WW continues to carry on her affair. There is a very small window of opportunity here for you to protect yourself...don't waste it. (And for what it's worth, you CAN continue Plan A even while going through the steps to protect yourself and your daughter.)

BTW, my sister was married for 14 years with an 8 year old daughter when she left my BIL for another woman 9 years ago. Now my sis and her "partner" have been living together for the last 9 years, and my ex-BIL has primary custody of my neice and my sis has standard visitation and pays child support. And this is in Texas...a state that is very pro-mother.

How is allowing your daughter to remain in an immoral situation 50% of the time in the best interest of your daughter? Sins of the father/mother... and all that. It may not be hurting her now but who's to say in a few years it won't greatly impact her development as a young woman herself?

Legally, the outcome depends a lot of what state you're are in. I agree with the other poster, READ UP on your rights as a father, start DOCUMENTING, etc. If you want to save your FAMILY then start fighting for it. You're allowing yourself to be led down the path straight to divorce, her way.

OW does not live 2 hrs away, it's more like 30 minutes.

I will start doing research on father's rights and I will seek professional legal advice on my situation. The part that may be different is that I will first try to see if we can settle out of court w/ a legally binding separation/divorce agreement based on what I (not WW) think is fair. Only if there is no compromise will I take WW to court... I don't want to drag out the D if I can avoid it, and I think WW is more likely to compromise as well b/c she knows it will be even more difficult on her financially to drag out the D.

If I am going to get a D, which seems all but inevitable at this point even if I do Plan A/B, I will at least come out as a better person for myself and a better father for my DD. I know Plan A/B doesn't always save a M (in my case it probably won't), but it will help me move on with my life in a positive way.

I'm not buying all of the bi-curious babble. Otherwise I think your wife would have mentioned something much earlier in your marriage.

Instead your wife is probably getting her emotional needs (that were neglected) met by the OW.

I would quit thinking about divorce, and start thinking about how to break up the affair.

I agree completely...

If I was to try and save the M, how long will it take before I will know whether it can/can't be saved? I'm not sure if I can handle the emotional strain for months/years if there is no light at the end of the tunnel... Would I be in denial in thinking that I can save the M against such overwhelming odds?

Your odds are NOT overwhelming. You are dealing with a garden variety affair, except that it is same sex. But we've seen a lot of those.

However, there aren't any quick fixes.

You are feeling exactly how all of us BS's have felt at that stage. You are not alone. But it is a difficult journey. Get the books. Follow PlanA/B as best as you can. Don't worry so much about the odds. These methods are tried and true. Worst case scenario is that you emerge a stronger and more complete person.