I have ordered HN/HN and SAA, now just waiting for them to get here. I will also put the thoughts of D away for now and try to work on the Plans once I have it figured out... Thanks for the words of encouragement.

You can read a lot of good stuff here on the home page. Look at "How an Affair Should End", and the "Overcoming Resentment" article.

iamlost don't give up yet BUT do protect yourself and your DD. At this point most BS have the feeling things will not work out, it CAN. Listen to the folks here, you are getting GOOD advice.

iamlost,

I know it's hard to believe, but many have been in your situation or worse and overcome the seemingly hopeless odds.

Read, post, vent, ask, seek whatever you're thinking/feeling. On weekends, especially holiday ones, things are agonizingly slow.....so please be patient. You've received great advice so far and much more will be forthcoming if you can hang on.

I registered in the middle of a holiday weekend and watched my first post receive nearly 90 views without one reply in 12 hours. It's made me try to log in on holiday weekends to encourage newcomers. I nearly gave up but I'm glad I stuck in there.

While you're awaiting replies, one idea is to read all the sig line links attached to the posts you've received so far. Set your goals high, but realize that you must focus on taking care of you and your child. You WW is temporarily inhabited by an alien force that must be reckoned with, but it's not unusual around here. Regardless of the genders, MB principles will work.

Best wishes and welcome to Marriagebuilders.

Ace

A lot has happened in the last week...
To sum up:
For the Thanksgiving week (Wed - Sat), originally WW "negotiated" so that each of us would have DD for 2 nights... in the end WW only got Thanksgiving dinner. I stood firm about limiting the amount of time DD spends over at OW's place, and also due to some unforseen circumstances, things fell in my favor and DD slept at home the whole week. However, WW views this as me not wanting to share DD and work w/ her in co-parenting, and she views it as me LB'ing (based on her reaction and our subsequent conversations/arguments). She says that OW is a part of her life now and I just need to accept it, and since WW is part of DD's life, by extension, OW should be a part of DD's life as well...
On the following Monday when we went to MC, this topic came up and discussions got heated... I don't think our MC is doing a good job b/c she basically is accepting WW's view as fact w/o even trying to make her see the big picture... just focused on what is in the "best interest" of DD if/when we separate/divorce... I scheduled an appt. w/ a different MC. WW agreed to go to the new one to try her out, hopefully the new MC will make more effort in trying to save the M as opposed to simply getting us ready for the eventual D...

Marriage counseling is basically useless while one spouse is ACTIVELY engaging in an affair (which your wife is). It does you no good. You are probably wasting your money.

However, money better spent would be a phone call to the Harley's for you to get a REAL PLAN. Right now you don't have a plan...you are just hoping to luck into a counselor that will agree with you...that's not a PLAN.

Your wife is only participating in counseling so that you can have an amicable divorce...if that's what you want (a divorce) then you are on the right track. If you want to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE then you need to call the Harley's and get yourself a firm PLAN to do so.

On Tuesday night, WW did not return home until 1:30am from OW's place (she called at 12:05am saying that she's on her way, knowing that it's a 20 min drive). On Wednesday night she slept over at OW's place b/c she is supposed to have dinner w/ OW's friends and since it will be really late when they are done, she might as well sleep over at OW's. On Thursday, WW said she is supposed to have dinner w/ a couple of her friends and then come home, but actually went to dinner w/ OW and slept at her place again. WW is still at OW's place and will not return until Sunday night. WW wants to bring DD to OW's place to spend Saturday night and return w/ her on Sunday evening/night. I tried to avoid it, but everytime we have this discussion about DD spending nights over at OW's place we get into an argument (she considers it to be SD in MB terms). In order to stop myself from LB'ing, I gave in and let WW take DD away for the night... I know it's probably not the best thing to do, but isn't the alternative of LB'ing just as bad...?

I want to save my M very much, but it seems impossible... When do I have to accept the "reality" (WW's reality... I'm trying really hard not to accept it) that the M cannot be saved?
Should I stop going to MC then? I am probably wasting money, but my M is worth a lot more to me than whatever I am spending on MC right now. Maybe I shouldn't care, but what will WW think if I suddenly decide to stop going to MC? Will she think I am giving up on the M as well and possibly prompt her to move out (b/c it signals that I have accepted her reality so no need to "work" on me anymore) vs. waiting so she can continue to eat-cake? She says she hasn't moved out b/c she wants to make sure we can separate in good terms, but every day she is home or have contact w/ her, she is hurting me so much b/c she is carrying on w/ the A w/o any regard to my feelings and w/ all the things she says about how she will never see me in a romantic way again, etc. etc....

It's not really progress, but she finally admitted that she has made mistakes as well which contributed to our failing/failed M... although she still feels no guilt or remorse about the A.
WW asked me about Christmas, and she continues to insist that I should meet OW and go over to her place for Christmas dinner (WW wants DD and her to split the day b/w me and OW). I have gone from "we can work something out" to "over my dead body" and now I'm at "I don't know, I have to think about it". I don't think I can meet OW w/o committing any LB's (such as AO and DJ), even if the alternative is to spend Christmas night alone w/o my family... WW keeps telling me OW is a nice person if you know her, but I told her it is irrelevant that she is a nice person b/c of what OW represents... WW of course was not happy about that... Over the last few days, it seems we can't talk about anything w/o getting into an argument...

Plan A is NOT Plan Appeasement. Not allowing your DD to be exposed to the OW should be a clear boundary of yours. It isn't anything to be arguing about, and your WW trying to portray this boundary of yours as a SD is not only absurd to the extreme, the fact that she's trying to use MB to further *destroy* your M is positively evil.

IMO it takes two to argue. You can simply choose not to.

You explain to your WW that you, as your daughter's father, have the right to not allow your daughter to be in the same place as her AFFAIR PARTNER. Does your wife understand that she is having an AFFAIR? That it doesn't matter whether it is a man or a woman, it is still an AFFAIR? Would she expect you to go along with her little game if it were a man she were spending the night with 4 nights a week?

It seems really cut and dried to me. Your wife is having an AFFAIR and you do not want your child influenced by it. It's very simple.

Yes, I think you should ditch the "marriage counselor" that you've been going to in favor of a session with the Harleys. Your money and your time is wasted while you pay to have somebody tell you how to be nice to each other during a divorce. What you NEED is a PLAN...like I've been saying from the beginning.

You need to be doing ALL of the same things you would do if she was screwing a man instead of a woman. The situation is no different and maybe if you think of it in those terms then you can see how important it is that you treat it as an affair and fight it as such.

The answer should be an emphatic NO. Again, it takes two to argue, so there's no reason to get in an argument over this. State NO very clearly, then move on to something else.



No - you'll be spending it with your DD, right?

Over the last month I have been attempting to Plan A. I am making improvements to myself (cologne, working out, dressing better, etc.). However, WW is not giving me the chance to meet her ENs other than FS, DS, and FC. I doubt these are her most important ENs, but even worse is that these ENs actually enable her to continue her A w/o any consequences. In addition, I'm sure I've done some LBing since in her fog state, everything I do/say that she doesn't agree w/ her mindset would be considered as some sort of LBing... and therefore cancel any positive effects I would have had of doing Plan A...
WW moving out is just going to be a matter of time. Most likely the majority of Plan A (if I can even go through w/ it) will have to be done after she moves out (probably move in w/ OW as opposed to on her own since she doesn't have a job). I know I am supposed to do Plan A for myself, but will Plan A even make any difference in terms of saving the M since no matter what image she has of me (before I go into Plan B), it will never again be as her H and someone she can love romantically (she has made it abundantly clear on many occasions)...?

Has your wife said she was going to move out? I think I would tell her she'd best get a J.O.B. if she is moving.

The affair will never last. You just need to hang in there until it ends.

Keep meeting her EN's. The affair is probably mostly about her emotional needs anyway, and she is trading sex.

How was your sex life before?

I do treat this as an affair. I might have mentioned it in a previous post, but she doesn't think it's an affair b/c she says she has no emotional attachment to me ("detached" is her word). She recognizes it is an affair in legal terms (i.e., having a emotional/physical relationship w/ someone other than the spouse) but she doesn't care... no moral issues, no guilt, nothing...
I think she would expect me to go along w/ it even if it is a man... She wants me to accept that this (i.e., ending our relationship as H and W) is what she wants, no matter who, if anyone at all (or what gender) she choose to be with. She only cares about her happiness right now (is this severe fog?) and doesn't care how much she is hurting me. Do I really want her back? I know this is WW not W talking, but I don't think W is ever coming back and WW has permanently taken over...

All the stuff she is babbling about is completely normal. That is what they all say. We have lots of men that think it would be sweet for OW and wife to meet. LOL. It's just part of the disease.

DD (and maybe WW) will be w/ me for Christmas Eve and most of Christmas day... WW wants to take DD w/ her to OW's for Christmas dinner (and probably sleepover). I know the advice I am getting here is to say no to sleepovers and ask WW to respect my boundaries. But, she is WW, and she doesn't respect me or any boundaries I set. If she respects me, she wouldn't be doing all this sh*t to hurt me now would she?

Well, you can just tell her that DD won't be having a "sleepover" at the home of a woman who is in the midst of attacking her family and her future happiness.

WW said she will move out. She is in the last month of her undergrad studies. She is passively looking for a job, but I don't even think she has a usable resume written yet.
Sex life hasn't been that good since DD was born (as w/ many married couples). It got worse after my brother moved in 2.5 years ago mainly due to the lack of privacy. Since the beginning of 2007 up until the start of the A, I would say it was about once a month on average...
As far as her satisfaction, she was able to reach O almost every time (actually 2-3 O's most of the time). What she tells me about being w/ a woman is that she is learning a lot about herself, her body, and how she likes the feeling of a woman's body (soft skin and breasts, for example).
I don't think SF is one of her most important ENs, but maybe that's changing b/c she is feeling that sex w/ a woman is more fulfilling to her than w/ a man...

She is just blabbering away. I bet it is more of her emotional needs that are being met. I still don't think she is bi. This OW is probably a predator type, looking for a married woman.