I have said some variation of this and most everything else that was suggested here to WW regarding DD and sleepovers, but each time that topic comes up we just end up arguing... I know it takes 2 to argue, but do I really want to push her to the point where she will basically pack her stuff and move out now (can I legally cut her off financially b/c that's the only thing I can do to stop her?). I know as DD's father I have the right to keep her home, but as DD's mother, doesn't WW have the right to take DD away just the same? If I want to enforce this, don't I need some legal way of doing it as she is not respecting anything but the law...?
Also, I am planning on seeing a lawyer soon regarding my options. I still want to fight for my M, but I have to protect myself and DD as well.

You may have to get legal advice, and even THEN you might not be able to stop her taking your daughter. It depends on your state.

One thing that is not good is that you are apparently watching your daughter while your wife is staying out with the OW.

I suggest you start going out with friends and NOT being stuck at home while she parties.

Actually, when WW and OW first met, WW did not tell OW she was married w/ a child (at least that's what WW told me). I don't think WW told OW about me and DD until the EA has already started. It wasn't outright lying, but rather an omission of the truth, considering WW hasn't been wearing her wedding ring for a long time already (not really an excuse, but she does have exzema on her ring finger). Naturally, OW assumed she is single...
I think OW works for Dept of Homeland Security (maybe Immigrations & Customs?)... I know OW wears a uniform, carries a gun and wears kevlar to work. I also know she works at the airport... Not sure if that is related to her being a "predator"...
I agree it is about her ENs being met and not about sex w/ a woman. The main problem is she won't let me meet her ENs, except for the ones I listed in a previous post, which are ENs that OW cannot meet or WW thinks it is too early in their relationship for OW to be meeting (especially FS).

I live in IL.
I can go out too, but WW will just make my bro (18 yo) watch DD if I am not home... and if I am not home w/ DD (whether my bro is there or not), there is no way I can stop her from taking DD out of the home almost every chance she gets, when she is not partying but just staying w/ OW.

I would send a letter to the OW's employer and ask if they permit their employees to be in adulterous relationships and break up families. It can't hurt, and maybe they will talk to her.

I guess this is the "stick" part of Plan A... but I can't get the "carrot" part working properly b/c WW is not letting me meet her most important ENs... I'm pretty sure all stick and no carrot is not going to work...
It can't hurt? Not even if OW tells WW about the exposure and WW packs her stuff and moves out w/ OW on the same day (I know for sure WW will do that, so it is not an empty threat so long as I can't (legally) cut her off financially and OW is willing to support her financially once WW moves out)? I doubt telling OW's employer will end the A especially since the A is not b/w 2 employees (which is where it may have an effect). With a non-employee, it'll probably be a slap on the wrist at the most... In fact, wouldn't I be pushing WW even closer to OW (the passion and thrill of forbidden love)? Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the risks far outweigh the reward?

We all say "You can't shield her from the consequences of her affair." But over and over again we see that betrayed spouses are ultimately unshielded from years and years of neglecting their marriages when their spouses opt to choose an affair. (Especially husbands.)

IAM, you are reaping the consequences of very, very bad marital behavior. To recap:

1) Married five years but opting out for the last 2-1/2
2) YOu chose your family-of-origin's wishes for you to relocate over wife's happiness, and despite her repeated objections
3) You chose your brother's convenient and quality education over your wife's convenience and quality of life: He goes to school locally, while your wife spent FOUR HOURS a day on public transportation round-trip door-to-door
4) No regular satisfactory SF for her in the last five years

But now you want her back. Unless of course, it's going to be a lot of work, or take a lot of trouble?

Let me ask you, if YOU were HER, would YOU want to be married to YOU?

If you were your wife, why on earth would you believe that there was anything positive awaiting you in the marital relationship?

If you were her, what would there be for her to look forward to? Especially since your parents, your brother, and pretty much everything else in your life has taken precedence?

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm wondering.

(And for those of you who are just waiting to snap at me, hold off. Maybe there's something in answering these questions that will benefit IAM. Women see emotional neglect as grounds for divorce, and that's straight from Harley.)

As I said in the beginning of this whole nightmare, your best bet for exposure is HER PARENTS. Who cares if she gets mad? She's already mad. The reason she doesn't want them to know is not because she doesn't want to "come out" but probably because she knows they won't approve of her adulterous affair (no matter who it's with).

Start with her family. You can expose to OW employer too, but it probably won't have the effect as her parents would.

She's leaving either way right? EXPOSE NOW.

To clarify, she doesn't know about MB, Plan A/B, or any of the concepts and terminology. I said SD b/c that's how she is interpreting it (i.e., I am being "selfish" not thinking of the need for WW and DD to spend time together and my "demand" is unreasonable in her mind). She understands where I'm coming from, but she doesn't give a damn b/c it contradicts w/ her viewpoint...
I have always told WW that I don't mind you spending time w/ DD, but just not w/ OW and especially sleepovers at her place... Since WW is w/ OW almost all the time except for when she is in class or at home (or when OW is working), WW is making it nearly impossible for DD to be w/ WW but not simultaneously w/ OW when they are outside of the home.

This was something that she never talked about until this year... sure we fought, but never to the point where she want to completely walk out of the M.


If I had known how much it would make her feel unhappy and how much damage it would do to my M, do you really think I would have gone ahead with it anyway???


I am the one to initiate probably 95% of the time, and believe me, I have been wanting to increase the quantity and quality of our SF all the time... it is WW that doesn't "want" or "need" it. Nothing she did showed me that SF is even close to being one of her most important ENs... Sex w/ a woman is new to her, and that maybe why SF seems higher on the list now than before b/c it is "fresh" and a different experience.


Of course I know it is going to take a lot of work and yes I probably wouldn't want to stay married to the person she fell out of love with either. Yes there is nothing she can look forward to under the CURRENT conditions. I know all of this!!! The problem is she has completely ruled out the possibility that things CAN be different b/c of her fundamental belief that people cannot change. Well, she sure did change (from the W I knew and love to the WW she is today)...
If it would make any difference, I would have kicked my brother out, moved back to the city with her, tell my parents to f*cking leave us alone to lead a happy life together, and so on and so on... but none of that makes a difference... not anymore...

So I guess sweet is suggesting that I just give up, call my lawyer on Monday and file for D, huh??? Sorry but the picture you painted looks pretty hopeless...

Everyone is making it sound like exposure is easy as pie... and the A will end just like that... really???

In my case, WW's dad left her mom and the children and has no contact w/ the family for over 22 yrs. WW's mom doesn't speak any English. The only other person in WW's family that speaks any English is WW's older sister, but guess what, she is leaving her husband too and she is supporting WW's decision to leave me. Exposing the A to her family may or may not make a difference, since WW made it clear to everyone that knows about the situation her decision to leave me was made long ago (i.e., before she met OW).

Hypothetically, if I expose to her family and once she finds out I exposed, regardless of whether the A ends or not, she goes to get a lawyer and files for D, fights me for sole custody and for half of everything I own... then what (in her fog state WW is crazy enough to do just that)??? It's one thing if I can use her A against her in court, but if it doesn't matter according to the law, then wouldn't I have just dug my own grave? This is why I need to talk to a lawyer first before I do anything drastic... I know this sounds like the garden variety A to everyone here but every situation is unique is some way... please try to understand my reluctance...

Hi iamlost,

You don't know what she is going to do. You need to expose, expose, expose.

I felt like a new human after I exposed. You need to get out of that false comfort zone of "maybe it will end soon...PLEASE let it end soon!"

I was there. It wasn't pretty. Exposure is very freeing and it has an immediate effect on you because it enables you to start taking control of your life back. It did for me.

And I know...what if? what if? what if?

But you don't really know, nor can you rely on how her family will feel. Maybe they won't be as "approving" as you might think.

But you have to take the chance so that there will be a chance to save your M.

Of course, no guarantees. But what is the alternative? More suffering for you! That is not good for you mentally or physically.

DO IT, iam...EXPOSE!!!! Let the ugly out of the hat!!!! Lance the boil! Get the poison out of your system!

So what if they don't approve? Will my WW really give a sh*t? We are in the US, her entire family lives in Europe. It's not like her mom can just get in the car, drive over and knock some sense into WW if she disapproves (literally or figuratively)... The practical aspect of communication is going to be an issue as well due to the language barrier... lost in translation, anyone?
If exposure causes WW to file for D and it becomes an ugly court battle, why is it still the right move? Please explain. Yes I don't really know what will happen, but do I really want to gamble like that (especially when we all know there are no guarantees it will work)? Playing Russian Roulette w/ 1 bullet is dangerous enough... you guys are basically suggesting I play w/ 5 bullets?

Okay! I was just checking!

Believe it or not, it's actually great news that you already know that. So many BSs don't, and go about thinking that their marriages are in a mess for ... gosh, who knows why? Not THEM!

But you are now in a position to approach your wife, at some point, and repeat exactly those words, above, to your wife. And to follow up with:

But I want things to be completely different, and to do whatever is necessary for us to fall in love with each other again. I promise that it is possible, and that we can do that.

Right now, your wife cannot even begin to imagine this, because not only is your Love Bank empty, but it is completely overdrawn, and has been for some time.

You're right, exposing in the wrong way, and pointlessly, would probably not work in your favor. There is no employer, the family doesn't seem to give a sh*t, and it's not a workplace affair. You can shame her for lesbianism, but that won't gain you points either now, or later on.

Go to "Plan A" and tell your wife what you're going to do to build a better nest for the family, from the ground up.

After a long night's sleep.

P.S. Charlotte's story makes fascinating reading, but her situation is entirely different and she wound up going straight to Plan D. Think through your actions very very carefully.

Avoid Plan D. Just let it not be a part of your vocabulary for now.

iamlost, sweetsobriquet is a board TROLL who believes in DISHONESTY and knows absolutely nothing about Marriage Builders or about rebuilding a marriage. [she doesn't even know what Plan A is] SHE IS GIVING YOU BAD ADVICE. She is a dishonest wayward spouse herself. She is only here to confuse you because she is a SHARK who smells blood in the water. She smells your fear and is trying to capitalize on that to discourage you from taking hard, but necessary steps to save your marriage.

Dr. Harley would advise you to expose the affair. Charlotte is not getting divorced and her situation is not "entirely different;" nor does exposure have anything to do with why Charlotte filed for divorce. Charlotte is absolutely correct, you should expose the affair.

Exposure will not immediately kill it,[although that has happened] but it will hasten its death. Exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer and is absolutely your most potent weapon. Affairs thrive on secrecy, and exposing them ruins the fantasy aspect. Keeping it a secret enables it.

You are more likely to be divorced if you DON'T expose the affair because it is more likely to SURVIVE if you don't. Don't let your FEAR ruin any chance you have of saving your marriage. your marriage CAN SURVIVE her temporary anger over exposure, it CANNOT survive an affair.

SS, you leave this man alone, you sick vulture.

iamlost, let's focus on what Dr. Harley SAYS, since he is the expert here and has saved a marriage or two:

IAM, MelodyLane has been personally helping Charlotte with her Plan D, so exercise caution.

Actually Charlotte's situation IS almost entirely different from yours. First of all, her husband is a substance abuser, so he would not respond to Plan A -- So Charlotte has not been able to do much of one (it would have made little sense). Second of all, Charlotte's husband had a workplace affair, so exposure was fundamental to trying to end it -- but that was not effective. There were also grown children and other family members who could make sense of it and try to pressure the affairees -- none of that has worked yet, but it's early. Her husband and the OW are right now "together" until they either come to their senses, or one becomes disgusted enough. Third, Charlotte had to file for the Big D to protect herself financially, because the husband was spending money hand-over-fist on the affair. So far, not your situation at all.

In YOUR case, you have had next to no time to show your wife what you can and will do to make her life better with YOU. That is a large part of what Plan A is about. Do NOT let her move out of the house! You've been at this for days, not weeks, and while it's torture, it will all take time. The OW has even made it clear that she will step out of the picture ... This does not sound like either woman feels it is a romance that is destined to withstand the test of time!

Time, time, time is on your side.

The very best advice is actually NOT to rely on a message board, but to pull some money together, and make an appointment to call the Harleys. They are VERY good. Have THEM help you formulate a plan.

SS, again, you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Exposure is PART OF PLAN A. imalost IS IN PLAN A. THE SAME as Charlottes, who is NOT in "PLAN D." Workplace exposure WAS effective in Charlottes case, but you don't understand what the definition of effective IS because YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF EXPOSURE OR MARRIAGE BUILDERS PRINCIPLES.

Stay off this man's thread and leave him alone.

imlost, again, SS is a wayward wife who trolls this board, knows nothing about MB principles and practices dishonesty in her own marriage. She does not even know that exposure is part of plan A. She cannot help you because she does not know what she is doing or talking about. DR HARLEY DOES.


The others here, Charlotte, Cathy, are giving you good advice based on Marriage Builders principles. Stick with them.

The Harleys put this board together so people could rely upon it when they didn't have the funds to pay for counseling. Many marriages have been saved here. However, they expect for folks to at least UNDERSTAND and advocate Marriage Builders principles before they commence giving advice. When you sign up they ask you to LEARN THEM and read their material first. It is clear you have not bothered to do any of that in the 5 short months you have been here.

Do you even OWN a Harley book? Have you ever read one?