Ok, I got ya, I might have mis-read then.

The only thing I can say about getting your feelings back is. He must work to get you to fall in love with him, just like he did the first time. If you loved him once you can love him again. If he works at it then it can happen

Call INS, its not revenge, its to get her out.

Yes it can and I know you are right but this week he told me about two new women that were hitting on him.

Oh and wanted to give ma a ring for Christmas.

He just doesn't get it at all.

We telling you that isn't scoring any points, right? Hmmph... dumb WS'. They think they are God's gift to.... where's that 'return icon'? LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

I'm gonna throw the proverbial wrench at this one..

as much as we all like to post and post that the WS has to do all the work..

it's not true...
can't be true...since marriage is TWO people both committed to something greater down the line....

Where is the plan A here..
AND
most importantly where is the LOVE of plan A...

you got lots of rooms for boundaries ...where are they.??

where has he gotten the idea that you can't love or whatever it is he said because you are adopted...

did you have you brought up personal issues with your adoption or did he just make that up...

also are you someone that YOU would want to come to home to after work...

are you kind, happy , loving...engaging and appreciative at all...

AND are you hopeful and rewarding when he does do right...

otherwise it won't matter what he does or doesn't do...

it won't matter what he brings to the table if there is no table set for him....

love is not a feeling it is an action and if you don't feel love...are you ACTING loving towards him...

are you building new moments and memories...

no one can be controlled without their consent to be controlled...

what boundaries do you need to stop being controlled...

why wouldn't you try plan A...and then move to plan B if you have to...

ARK

That's ok

Once I found out about the OW, I went immediately into plan A. Didn't know about this site so there was no NC or disclosure. WS was dying to get rid of her so the discovery was just what he needed. OW wanted marriage, he wanted a secret fling. So OW did everything she could to try to make discovery end the marriage.

Plan A was working until I discovered he had secretly been in touch with her and had met up with her again. I don't think he was continuing to cheat but he had more concern and guilt about her than he did about me. You could say that plan A worked so well that he thought he could continue to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. At that point I told him that I had had enough and wanted a divorce.


I read that all adopted children have attachment disorder. Being curious, I bought a book on the subject. I did not see myself as having attachment disorder after reading the book which in any case said that healing could come from meeting your birth family which did indeed happen to me.

I was adopted at birth but found my birth family (my parents married each other) when I was 25 and have been close to them for many years. So I left the book lying around. WS read it and decided it gave him all the explanation he needed for his actions.


The answer to the above is that I am no longer in plan A. At this point I have absolutely no desire to stay married. By maintaining contact with the OW he has demonstrated that he will do what he wants whenever he wants to. The counsellor we saw told me that I had to accept him as he was or leave the marriage. This is a man who has been cheating for 17 years with at least three different women. I feel that he has stolen my life and he has certainly damaged our children with his yelling and endless arguments which I now know to be as a result for the guilt from his cheating. He is the one who wants to save the marriage.

He has never been able to control me. I think this was one of the reasons he cheated.

liedto..

unfortunately if you aren't able to put any energy in to this marriage...it will not survive...

I don't blame you for choosing to get out if that's what you choose...

but the limbo and stuckness is part of your creation as well...

you have no plan...and round here we're allllllllll about plans....
even if and when it's plan D...

you have to decide...

I don't know what to tell you...
on one hand...
serial cheater according to you...

on the other hand...covert ridiculous contact ...he isn't the first..won't be the last....

has he seen the light on the recent contact discovery..
do you think plan B would be helpful...
let him wallow in it for a bit..

can you put the energy one more time in making a go...
really that's the only question left....

blessings to you...

ARK^^

Yes I know that


After I discovered to last contact I said I wanted a divorce. He asked for a financial separation and a two year moratorium which I agreed to. This ends in September 2008 and I have agreed to counselling but the only counsellor we have seen so far has told me to run away as fast as I can. I am going to set up something with Dr Harley on the suggestion of people here.


He started his first A when I had a newborn. This went on for years, then faded out to be replaced by a woman who kept asking him for money so he got fed up with her. The last A that he has admitted to started when I was out of the country for a few months, I think it was cold, calculated and deliberate as he by that time was a habitual cheater who had never got burnt or caught. This last one was a different matter as the woman wanted him to leave me and did everything she could to make him. He lost control which scared him.

All those years of his yelling and screaming I had no idea what was wrong with our marriage. I come from a culture with a very strong sense of duty and a religion that does not approve of divorce so I felt I had to stick it out but it was totally miserable.


He would never move out but under the terms of the financial separation I have to get a job as it gives me no maintenance. I have a damaged foot which is being repaired in a week and after that I plan to find full time work, right now I only work part time. This will drive him completely crazy as I look after everything at home. He thought he was being really clever to cripple me financially as he thought it would mean I could not leave. I think it will serve as a nasty wake up for him [/quote]



Well yes, that is the really important question isn't it? I don't trust him and so I can't make the first move but if he were to show any genuine attempt to take responsibility for what went wrong instead of saying it is all because I was adopted, then maybe I could find some energy somewhere

I can't make the first move but if he were to show any genuine attempt to take responsibility for what went wrong instead of saying it is all because I was adopted, then maybe I could find some energy somewhere

what does a genuine attempt look like to you...
that might be a place to start...

knowing exactly what actions you need to see

do you know what they are...

ark

m
Good question Ark and thank you for your time.

I would need to see him tell the truth. He tells lies over little things as well as big ones. He lies to his children as well as to me.

And he must take responsibility for his own actions. Everything is always someone else's fault.

I am looked at your sig line, you are dealing with a lot, there is no doubt.

What do you really want to do? what does your heart tell you?

Has your H ever had individual counseling?

Hi doingfine

We have a first session scheduled with Jennifer tonight.

Right now my heart is telling me that this situation is hopeless. My FIL was a serial cheater and MIL knew and tolerated it. I am so afraid for my son.

H is not interested in individual counseling as everything is my fault :-)

I will post after the session.

Well Jennifer was great. She spent almost the whole session listening quietly to H explaining that the A's were because I was adopted.

I so love it when he does his victim stuff, really makes me feel he has taken responsibility for his actions ;-)

Having read a lot on this site, I can see a lot more. At least now I can smile. Thanks guys!

You mean he said they were because he was adopted?

LA

Hi LA

No, he believes he cheated because I was adopted! Take a look a few messages back where I explained how this came to him wearing his new hat of AttachmentDisorderExpert.

I'm sure Jennifer did not buy ANY of it

:-)

Advice needed from the vets please!

As part of our work with the Harleys, we have been exchanging ENs. One of mine was that H volunteer information that might be uncomfortable for him to give.

He then volunteered that OW#2 had phoned him but that he had not been able to talk to her and had asked her to call him back at a better time. He told me that he had not yet heard from her but that, when he did, he expected to tell her that he no longer wished to have a relationship with her as I would not like it.

When I suggested that it was inappropriate for him to invite her to call AT ALL he said that he was considering her feelings.

Am I wrong in feeling that he is still putting the feelings of these wretched women ahead of mine?

LTA,

No, you're not wrong in choosing to believe at the time OW2 spoke to him that he was putting her feelings ahead of your marriage.

Does the rewording help?

Your WH is working on his marriage...and no, he hasn't gotten some of the roots of his choice of serial adultery. I find the most telling thing in what he would say to OW2.

Why not ask him...do you like it? Do you like being a serial cheater? The hiding, lying by omission, continuing contact and attacking your marriage?

I don't believe he does...he has automatics only he can stop. Seems he's beginning to choose to stop now...takes a lot of choices, over time, to really stop, doesn't it?

You asked him and he answered...that was new, wasn't it?

You hurt from his answer...another lie...another setup.

For the old dance.

Can you separate this into separate pieces? Can you see his honest reply as a new choice?

Can you see his choice to work with the Harleys to change his lifelong habits as a process?

Can you own that you question your own feelings and beliefs...instead of stating honestly to him that you feel fear and pain right now? Even sharing that all the gaslighting from so many years has you doubting yourself?

You believe he put OW2 ahead of your marriage. Know that belief is valid...own it. Share the whole of your stuff with him...that's solely your responsibility.

If you don't want him to put anyone ahead of your marriage, say that. Then do it yourself. Not even your own resentment.

Takes time to change a lifetime, doesn't it? You're no longer stuck...can be even more scary than stuck, in my experience.

Know what you know...and share it as your own.

Are you envisioning never agains, btw? Where because he gets it, he won't ever lose knowing he got it?

You chose to marry a pleaser-addict. There are payoffs in that for you...and great heartache. Takes a lot for a pleaser to understand how abusive pleasing is...how disrespectful...they are solely focused on NOT harming anyone and they destroy themselves and those they truly love.

LA

Hi LA and yes, the rewording does help


I have asked him this question and he answered that he hated himself for cheating. So much so that he felt it was not him but an alien being that did this. I presume this disassociation was the way in which he could on the one hand maintain that he loved me and on the other that he was happy to bonk whichever OW he happened to be around at the time.


Oh yes indeedy. It was a massive trigger because he did exactly the same thing with OW#3 while we were doing quite well with our first recovery attempt



Ah you are very wise, this stuff is tough isn't it?



Not sure I totally understand this one. I made him sign a financial settlement after he snuck back off to see OW#3 and he knows that it means a really fast pre packaged divorce if he gets caught cheating ever again.


I don't think he is a pleaser addict. He is very very controlling and manipulative. But he has never been able to control me, I think controlling these women was part of the fun. Also secretive so he enjoyed the sneaking around. And he sees himself as a victim so I presume that makes it all someone else's fault which is great!

Wow - Just read a definition of gaslighting which was an expression I had never heard, even after 25 years here, I am still finding new words.

My goodness this word is so apt! Not only is serial adultery well described this way - while you know there is something wrong with the marriage, you cannot not understand what it is but also, in my case, telling me that I cannot recover because I was adopted is more of the same!

Luckily I am a very strong person.

Today I told H that while I was very appreciative of the fact that he told me about the contact with OW#2, I did not like the words he planned to say when she phoned. That 'I don't think we should have a relationship' was not strong enough and that he should tell her definitively that he wanted nothing further to do with her and that she was never to call him again.

His response was to say that he saw no reason to be abusive towards her. Yup, 'abusive' was the actual word he used.

Interesting eh?

LTA,

So you POJA what will be said if she calls again. Best answer, IMO, is to hang up. Period. No words.

Not abusive. Definitive.

It's what we POJA'd in the event OW called.

You'd be surprised at what a pleaser-addict really is...my DH discovered he was a pleaser during this mess...and you could have knocked me over with a feather when he said that. I would have much described him as you do your WH at the time. Wasn't the whole of him.

And until he got his pleaser understanding, he couldn't get a handle on the passive-aggressive behaviors...one begat the other. A familiar loop from his whole life.

Beware of being a strong person, too...because those are the best enablers.

LOL

I'm laughing not at you...because you guys really seem to have similar dynamics at play as we do.

I'm delighted you found out about gaslighting...only in the last year on MB have there been threads regarding it, that I've seen. Yet, it's part of the whole A program, really.

I believe that's because it takes a lot of self-deceit to be present to have an A...so there will be gaslighting.

It isn't abusive to hang up on someone...it's good boundary enforcement. Takes time to see the difference. He gets the choice of being kind to her and in doing so, abuse his marriage...or in respecting she knows that contact continues A's...continues the attack on his marriage. He doesn't see her contact as firing the first salvo...she is...and I know you know it. He will.

Be sure to bring this up, though, at your next counseling session with Jennifer. Can you guys email inbetween sessions?

Use your strength to not spiral yourself, LTA. Know this is one corner of a blanket belief system under reconstruction. Be mindful to not make this about being right...because I hear you would rather be married.

Keep your focus on your stuff...your verifying. Good to know you have your last boundary enforcement in place...and know the boundary clearly.

About the never agains...I had a hidden expectation that after learning the MB principles, POJA, minding our time together...that my DH wouldn't withdraw again...wouldn't shut me out. I was wrong. Has nothing to do with me...has to do with him. So if you were looking for clues to why he's hopeless (your FWH), then you may also have this expectation, which grows with the more we know...and if you do, I wanted to share what a drop it was, quite a fall, from my own expectation.

LA

Great stuff LA and thank you for your time in writing it. We will certainly have bring up the contact issue with the Harleys as he started yelling at me as soon as I tried to get him to see that he was putting her feelings ahead of mine. This was OW#2 by the way not OW#3.

And yes, I think I understand what you are referring to about the withdrawal. After I discovered OW#3, he was open for a time and then gradually closed down again. Of course I then discovered that contact had continued . . .

Feeling very sorry for myself as I am laid up after a foot operation. Even having my three lovely children at home has not been able to make me cheerful but at least I have a time limit for this to end one way or the other (Sept 2008).